'Wherever Islam exists there is suffering'

While we get to hear this sentence on some regular basis, this is a sentence I heard while listening to Muslim Arabs talking between themselves this week.
I'm going to start my 8th week of excavation on Sunday, and towards the end of the 7th week I overheard some of the more older Arab Muslim workers (who are more traditional, and believing Muslims) talk about the condition of Islam and world affairs, and while they were discussing it in Arabic, it appears my Arabic was sufficient enough to understand what they were saying, ironically they also discussed this a short time after they gathered to pray.

Basically, they said that wherever Islam exists in the world we see suffering, atrocities, and war. And while this is relevant more than ever in our region today, as Muslim nations around us (in Israel) are torn with revolutions and civil wars they also discussed far off regions such as Pakistan.

I'd like to get both Muslim and non Muslim opinion about this subject, not only about the merit of the claim that the Muslim world is in a state of conflict and strife, but about the fact that God-fearing practicing Muslims seriously address this issue, is this self-criticism common among Muslims today? do Muslims tend to look at the challenges of the Muslim world and its faults critically? and what are their conclusions? while on the internet we are more prone to run into Muslims who love to display Islamic utopian ideals, how common is it instead for everyday Muslims to actually address the realistic and less flattering conditions first?

From a sociological standpoint, it makes a lot of sense to expect people who feel a duty to seek august ideals to also long for the opportunity to speak frankly about how far short they fall from such goals.

I would expect most Muslims to feel ill at ease admitting that with "outsiders", but to be fairly eager to admit it among trusted ones.

Well there's absolutely nothing we can do about this, we are in the era where Muslims will be in perpetual violence and trouble until the second coming of Christ as predicted by Muhammad. Jews will live in perpetual persecution and fear for their lives like the Qur'an says except in small instances of time when they receive a rope from the people and a rope from Allah (i.e some help from mankind and some help from Allah).

God always makes it tough for the people who worship the true religion.

Seems to me this is a universal human challenge not remotely confined to one particular group of people. That said, certain demographics can statistically have a higher incidence rate of certain challenges. Correlation does not necessarily indicate causation.

Wherever existence is, there is suffering.

One thought. There are those who believe it is their destiny to go through suffering in order to prove their merits.

Look at the richest muslim nation, and the ideology it spews, and you will see why

Assad91 said:

Look at the richest muslim nation, and the ideology it spews, and you will see why

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To the benefit of those like me who don't even now whether you are talking about Kuwait, UAE or Qatar, would you be so kind as to elaborate?

Mainly Gulf. KSA

Within Islam, how much emphasis is placed on right guidance versus scriptural justification of actions? If more emphasis was placed on right guidance, would this be enough to make people turn away from their harmful actions? Is more introspective soul searching needed?

I think you nailed it, Crossfire.

Caladan said:

I'd like to get both Muslim and non Muslim opinion about this subject, not only about the merit of the claim that the Muslim world is in a state of conflict and strife, but about the fact that God-fearing practicing Muslims seriously address this issue, is this self-criticism common among Muslims today?

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Depends on geography, religiosity, and education in my experience. Many Pakistanis, especially the older generation, blame outside forces for almost every single mishap. They also have conspiracy theories such as false flag operations being a part of the American government as a means to sow discord. However, I do think there have been significant movements, especially among the younger generations, who have shown a greater interest in the political scene of their country and working to overthrow the corruption of the standing institutional regimes. In Pakistan the recent elections ended up with Imran Khan's PTI becoming a second runner in the popular vote and forming a coalition government in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province. This was an unprecedented showing for the party that never had more than a handful of seats in Parliment, including its founder, and who boycotted the previous elections. The campaign for PTI was largely driven by the youth and ended up upsetting the previous government, the PPP, unexpectedly. The PTI is the fastest growing party as many Pakistanis have grown frustrated with the zero results, dynasticism, and corruption with the traditional parties of the PPP, PML, and the MQM. Movements to overthrow traditional dictators in the Arab world have of course forever altered the political landscape in the contemporary Middle East and there have been protests in Turkey to check the powers of Erodogen.

do Muslims tend to look at the challenges of the Muslim world and its faults critically?

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I don't think it's useful to ask what Muslims do or presume to group every single Muslim as following certain tendencies. It is a gross misrepresentation of reality otherwise.

Suffering is a world wide problem, it might however be meritous to examine if certain types of suffering have varying degrees of prevalence within an Islamic cultural scope as well as regions this culture permeates that might differ from other cultures and regions. In some respects some causes or manifestations of suffering might be more or less prevalent and both potential impacts are something truly worthy of investigation.

Major control granted to any organized ideology with a religious cause has historically been negative and caused suffering. Chrstianity had its run during the middle ages and now Islam is having its run in the middle east. Religion is fairly harmless if secular reasoning supercedes it. Whenever religious ideology and delusions take over an otherwise rational mind and all of the negative and immoral evil acts suddenly make perfect religious sense through false justification, then we have a problem.

In America we are seeing a less extreme version or the black end version of the Evangelical movment of this in the south. Racism, sexism and homophobia was the bread and butter of that conservative religous movement if looked at from a political lense. At worse right now we see slight bits of racism and sexism with more prominant homophobia and now rejection of science.

There is suffering everywhere so I would not blame Islam in the least. Actually when bad things happen and religion is blamed the real cause is something else. Bad people tend to use religion or some other idea as an excuse for their action but it is just an illusion. Much of the "bad" things I hear about in Muslim dominated countries are actually totally unrelated to religion, thou often excused that way. Female circumcision in northern Africa are an example of this and have existed long before Islam was even born. All above are also true for just about any other religion as well, there are bad people excusing their behavior everywhere.

The same could have been said for Christianity centuries ago. Islam is not a religion of suffering or death, it is just a religion and nothing special.

No religion is violent until its people wish to become violent. As of now Islam is in this flux of bloodshed do to the fact the vast majority of Muslims taken their religion more seriously then adherents of other faiths to the point it must dominate international societies.

Muslims will always be at fault for their religion as it is they who decided what should be done with it. It is the people and their action that make a religion not the religion itself as without followers it is harmless.

Now that Muslims have come in contact with the rest of the world thanks to our inter-connectivity they will soon realize nobody will tolerate the sort of actions performed by them in the past.
This death we see today is a result of the lack of international commune. Just like Christians over the centuries, Muslims will find a way to reform their faith.

It is undoubtedly true that Islam promotes suffering. Any ideology which is fundamentally rooted in reactionary social values, rather than in secular reasoning is bound to promote punishment for "sins" over real justice, hence why people under such regimes are unhappy.

In its present state, Islam is a time machine for the mind that only goes backwards.

Islam is not Evil.
I find it peculiar that no one is particularly interested in the reality of the problems that encompass the Muslim and Arab world today.
This is not a 1500 year old problem of "Islam."
This is a one hundred year old Arab Muslim Civil Sectarian War where Arabs and Muslims have been slaughtering each other in ever increasing numbers.
Israel; the "West;" infidels; and all non Arab and Muslims are totally peripheral to this fratricidal war.
The only use the "Far Enemy" has in this war is to gain street cred for the local sect; cult; tribe; or clan that is trying to wipe out everybody else.

The belief, that the current Jihaddi Death Cult interpretation of Islam is the only Islam possible and which has always existed, is incorrect.
The idea that:
"…virtually all clerics never deviate one iota from the Islamic narrative and the putative text and tenants of Islam, and in that regard they are representative of not only just Iran, but indeed the entirety of the international Islamic ummah," is untrue.
Modern Islamic "scholars;" imams; sheikhs; clerics; emirs; mujtahids; qadis; muftis; hakims; and all the other miscellany of decision makers in the mythical unity of dar al-Islam, agree on NOTHING!
They have been murdering each other and fighting to become the dominant force in Islam in order to re-establish their mythical Salafist Caliphate for over 100 years!
The "war against the West;" Israel; the United States and the rest of the world - dar al-harb, is a pimple on the butt of their fratricidal internecine war against each other. And, if the rest of the world doesn't wake up and face this fact that Islamists and Arabists are hell bent on destroying each other, this war will indeed kill off several more billion people on this planet and leave large portions of the Earth.
The belief that "what is good in their world is what is good for Islam and what is bad is whatever is bad for Islam. Thus, if killing you is good for Islam, you can kiss your *** good-bye. Indeed, the good Muslims are the ones that die martyrs fighting in the cause of Allah, and the bad Muslims are secular Muslims or Muslim In Name Only Muslims, which in the Dar al Islam are far and few between," is buying, lock, stock and barrel, the drivel that Islamist Jihaddi nutbar death cultist mufsidun sell as: "Islam - As It Was and Ever Shall Be."
The current Death Cult credo is an interpretation of Islam that has no basis in the 1,400 year history of Islam.
It is the same as claiming that the Death Cultists who destroyed Europe and wiped out nearly 100 million European Christians during the "Christian Reformation" preached the one and only "Christianity - As It Was and Ever Shall Be."
Or the Death Cultist Jews who ended up having the entire Nation of Israel obliterated by the Romans preached the one and only "Judaism - As It Was and Ever Shall Be."
People have got to stop drinking this Islamist Koolaid.
Because- if those who are willing to fight this Islamist and Arabist Evil continue to insist that today's Cultist Crap that all of these different sects propound is the ONLY Islam - And thereby include the 90% of Arabs and Muslims who could care less; or are illiterates who believe anything they taught; or those who are just trying to remain invisible so that some crazy death cultist doesn't cut their head off; or who can only feed, clothe and educate their children by sending them off to some Islamist madrassa; or the whole host of other issues that keep 90% of humanity from doing anything about anything, Ever! - then you will indeed continue to strengthen the Crazies by insisting that ALL Muslims are Evil and Crazy.
That is both stupid and untrue.

Most of the world, including Muslims and Arabs, has bought into the four or five endlessly repeated quotes from the Koran having to do with Death and Violence. Everyone just loves the Verse of the Sword from the Koran:
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush."
Oops - but the Jihaddi death cultists and the anti-Muslim crowd always seem to forget to include the next sentence:
"But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
The point being that Islam has interpreted its own sacred texts for over 1,000 years as having more to do with peace, prosperity, and striving for goodness than in murdering the "non-believer."
And, today's Islamist Death Cultists classify the "non-believers" primarily as other Muslims who don't believe in their particular Islamist cult.
The Iranian Death Cult of Shia Wilayat al Fiqh believes that Muslims and non-Muslims who do not believe in their dream of a global totalitarian state are deserving of Death.
Most Iranians do not.
The Sunni Wahhabist Death Cult of Saudi Arabia and all of its attendant children such as the Muslim Brotherhood; and Hamas; and Al Qaeda; and the Taliban; and other offshoots too numerous (and confusing) to mention, all believe that Muslims and non-Muslims who do not believe in their dream of a global totalitarian state are deserving of Death.
The corrupt ruling House of Saud; the despotic rulers of Egypt; the average secular Arab in Gaza; the Pashtun tribesman in Afghanistan or Pakistan, do not.
All of these disparate elements and more are murdering - primarily each other - to "win the hearts and minds" of the masses of ordinary Arabs and Muslims in a War of Dominance.
Modern day Islamic "Jihad" is a blasphemy in Islam that Islamist and Arabist death cultists have foisted on the entire world where the entire planet now believes in their madness.
And, if we continue to believe in these blaspheming Mufsidun, then the world is in for more and more serious hurt.

Caladan said:

While we get to hear this sentence on some regular basis, this is a sentence I heard while listening to Muslim Arabs talking between themselves this week.
I'm going to start my 8th week of excavation on Sunday, and towards the end of the 7th week I overheard some of the more older Arab Muslim workers (who are more traditional, and believing Muslims) talk about the condition of Islam and world affairs, and while they were discussing it in Arabic, it appears my Arabic was sufficient enough to understand what they were saying, ironically they also discussed this a short time after they gathered to pray.

Basically, they said that wherever Islam exists in the world we see suffering, atrocities, and war. And while this is relevant more than ever in our region today, as Muslim nations around us (in Israel) are torn with revolutions and civil wars they also discussed far off regions such as Pakistan.

I'd like to get both Muslim and non Muslim opinion about this subject, not only about the merit of the claim that the Muslim world is in a state of conflict and strife, but about the fact that God-fearing practicing Muslims seriously address this issue, is this self-criticism common among Muslims today? do Muslims tend to look at the challenges of the Muslim world and its faults critically? and what are their conclusions? while on the internet we are more prone to run into Muslims who love to display Islamic utopian ideals, how common is it instead for everyday Muslims to actually address the realistic and less flattering conditions first?

Click to expand...

I think it would be most important to provide God-fearing Muslims appropriate conditions, like they have in Aus, to actually enjoy their religion and aspire to Islamic utopian ideals free from suffering, atrocities and wars.

Then we might observe God-fearing Muslims conversing in Arabic painting a different picture of their reality.