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Superstition
- Thread starter Slapstick
- Start date
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
superstition is something that has pulled mankind back into the stone ages and constantly rears its ugly head up even today in modern societies. It has no place in human society frankly.
Everything happens because it can, all chains of events are chains and link to one another. There is no predestined "reason" for something to happen just cause and effect
Everything happens because it can, all chains of events are chains and link to one another. There is no predestined "reason" for something to happen just cause and effect
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
How would anyone know the difference between a world where something was pre-destined and a world where something was mandated via a chain of cause and effect? The two seem nearly indistinguishable to me; the only difference seems to be at the very height of whatever system is in place (the universe?).
That said "supernatural" is either a misnomer or a complete unknown. If one uses supernatural to mean something which is above natural law, but somehow still a part of the natural world, then it is a frankly ridiculous notion. Superstitions, in that vein, are merely heroic/villainous endeavor of ET's before we had a proper concept for an extra-terrestrial.
If one uses supernatural to mean something which is above natural law, but is somehow responsible for the creation of Reality, then it is completely unavailable for scrutiny. The question is beyond the scope of reality as we understand the term to mean, and as such shouldn't really affect our day to day lives. Superstition doesn't really apply here as it is more a matter of esoteric metaphysics than anything the common folk will speak about.
Do I think that things happen for a reason? This is almost a non-sequitur. It would require us to know "the mind of "God"" so to speak, and without knowing the full extent of our universe, let alone all of reality, there isn't really a way to know one way or the other whether or not things happen for a reason... Is it possible that some form of anthropic principle is in play? Could sentient beings be in the process of altering the way the universe works? Could aliens have built our universe as an experiment in universe development? You could extend the questions to any number of things and still be just as valid as any other.
If all outcomes are just as likely, then you know nothing.
MTF
That said "supernatural" is either a misnomer or a complete unknown. If one uses supernatural to mean something which is above natural law, but somehow still a part of the natural world, then it is a frankly ridiculous notion. Superstitions, in that vein, are merely heroic/villainous endeavor of ET's before we had a proper concept for an extra-terrestrial.
If one uses supernatural to mean something which is above natural law, but is somehow responsible for the creation of Reality, then it is completely unavailable for scrutiny. The question is beyond the scope of reality as we understand the term to mean, and as such shouldn't really affect our day to day lives. Superstition doesn't really apply here as it is more a matter of esoteric metaphysics than anything the common folk will speak about.
Do I think that things happen for a reason? This is almost a non-sequitur. It would require us to know "the mind of "God"" so to speak, and without knowing the full extent of our universe, let alone all of reality, there isn't really a way to know one way or the other whether or not things happen for a reason... Is it possible that some form of anthropic principle is in play? Could sentient beings be in the process of altering the way the universe works? Could aliens have built our universe as an experiment in universe development? You could extend the questions to any number of things and still be just as valid as any other.
If all outcomes are just as likely, then you know nothing.
MTF
roger1440
I do stuff
The word superstition has a sort of negative connotation to it. Those who are superstitious dont see themselves as such. Its like the word heretic. No one believes they are a heretic. Its always the opposing side that are the heretics.
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
You are heavily confusing superstition to supernatural. I cannot fathom how you blended those two together but superstition is as it is, not supernatural although they are related which is why you have people who believe in one while disregarding the other.
Also the difference between cause and effect and predestined purpose is evident and the refutation for the nonexistence of predestination solid.
To say that out of the outcomes of earth and its loss of 90% of its lifeforms to be purposeful you must really stretch your thinking and self worth.
Purpose is not created in complexity if it is issued by a more intelligent being(god).
Most events are as a result of ourselves and if you did this then you would deny free will. Apparently I have no free will and god is making me write this post
.The rebuttal is not even needed, just a simple mapping of events and their cause and predestined will never fits in.
Your logic is self refuting to be honest as you would have to deny a various amount of well established principles.
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
Definition:
Superstition- Superstition is a belief in supernatural causality: (wikipedia goes on to state much more on the subject, but that is the relevant portion)
In order to be Superstition one must believe that a supernatural causal agency exists. My point was that the use "Supernatural" is either a case of gross misapplication (metaphysical first causes have nothing to do with "the real world,") or a case of something which is impossible.
Tell me exactly what differences you expect to see in a universe governed by pre-destined outcomes and one where causal relations determine everything? How did you come up with the differences? Why are you so confidant in your source(s)?
I'm not sure how we got from a feature of the universe to a limited sub-section of what happens on Earth, but I'm game. Why would it be a stretch to presume that a supposed creator/moderator of the universe wouldn't want the loss of 90% of the species on Earth? What if the universe is one giant life testing zone, and the end result of natural selection was an intended feature from the very start? (Intelligent Design is outside the scope of our evidence; we literally cannot falsify it as the acquisition of evidence requires either time travel/viewing or existing outside our universe). Since we lack evidence for or against Intelligent Design (at any level; cosmological or biological) we default to the Null Hypothesis.
It is worth noting that just because you revert to the null hypothesis that does not mean you are certain that the null hypothesis is correct. It was at one point the rational thing to believe that black swans did not exist, but it is extant fact that they do and did at the time.
There are a lot of hidden assumptions in this next sentence. Purpose isn't created in complexity because? What feature does being more intelligent than us negates the possibility of complexity? Maybe our universe only seems complex because we aren't looking at it from the right perspective? Maybe we all boil down to 1's and 0's if we looked deep enough? There are at least a handful of quantum physicists who suppose that eventually reality breaks down into "beables" (cosmic 1's and 0's). Why would it be necessary for a creator being to be smarter than us? We have no evidence of what the laws of physics might be outside our universe. Why isn't it possible that the laws outside our universe are such that the creation of a new universe is manifestly easy?
Again: How would you know the difference between your being programmed to think, act, and believe as you do and your doing so "of your own volition?" P-Zombies might very well be absurd, but it is impossible to identify them. Also, I question the relevance of "Free Will." Why is this necessary or even a good thing? If there is something out there that is far more intelligent and moral than I ever will be, then I fail to see how it is a bad thing for you or for others to have this thing make command level decisions for you Edit: or at least arrange things such that you have the opportunity to better yourself.
You are suggesting that you can map the full extent of our universe? (Let alone all of reality mind you). How do you know what the furthest extent of the universe is like? Why are you at all confidant that the universe couldn't have been created with designs in mind?
What "well-established principles" did you have in mind that somehow dominate the universe of discourse as it relates to intentionality and creation of the astronomic universe? How do you know what causal influences and agencies affect quantum physics? Quantum physicists admit they don't actually know what is going on there, so how is it that you think you do?
MTF
Superstition- Superstition is a belief in supernatural causality: (wikipedia goes on to state much more on the subject, but that is the relevant portion)
In order to be Superstition one must believe that a supernatural causal agency exists. My point was that the use "Supernatural" is either a case of gross misapplication (metaphysical first causes have nothing to do with "the real world,") or a case of something which is impossible.
Tell me exactly what differences you expect to see in a universe governed by pre-destined outcomes and one where causal relations determine everything? How did you come up with the differences? Why are you so confidant in your source(s)?
I'm not sure how we got from a feature of the universe to a limited sub-section of what happens on Earth, but I'm game. Why would it be a stretch to presume that a supposed creator/moderator of the universe wouldn't want the loss of 90% of the species on Earth? What if the universe is one giant life testing zone, and the end result of natural selection was an intended feature from the very start? (Intelligent Design is outside the scope of our evidence; we literally cannot falsify it as the acquisition of evidence requires either time travel/viewing or existing outside our universe). Since we lack evidence for or against Intelligent Design (at any level; cosmological or biological) we default to the Null Hypothesis.
It is worth noting that just because you revert to the null hypothesis that does not mean you are certain that the null hypothesis is correct. It was at one point the rational thing to believe that black swans did not exist, but it is extant fact that they do and did at the time.
There are a lot of hidden assumptions in this next sentence. Purpose isn't created in complexity because? What feature does being more intelligent than us negates the possibility of complexity? Maybe our universe only seems complex because we aren't looking at it from the right perspective? Maybe we all boil down to 1's and 0's if we looked deep enough? There are at least a handful of quantum physicists who suppose that eventually reality breaks down into "beables" (cosmic 1's and 0's). Why would it be necessary for a creator being to be smarter than us? We have no evidence of what the laws of physics might be outside our universe. Why isn't it possible that the laws outside our universe are such that the creation of a new universe is manifestly easy?
Again: How would you know the difference between your being programmed to think, act, and believe as you do and your doing so "of your own volition?" P-Zombies might very well be absurd, but it is impossible to identify them. Also, I question the relevance of "Free Will." Why is this necessary or even a good thing? If there is something out there that is far more intelligent and moral than I ever will be, then I fail to see how it is a bad thing for you or for others to have this thing make command level decisions for you Edit: or at least arrange things such that you have the opportunity to better yourself.
You are suggesting that you can map the full extent of our universe? (Let alone all of reality mind you). How do you know what the furthest extent of the universe is like? Why are you at all confidant that the universe couldn't have been created with designs in mind?
What "well-established principles" did you have in mind that somehow dominate the universe of discourse as it relates to intentionality and creation of the astronomic universe? How do you know what causal influences and agencies affect quantum physics? Quantum physicists admit they don't actually know what is going on there, so how is it that you think you do?
MTF
Last edited:
Ozzie
Well-Known Member
Superstition is an excellent example of hindsight.
Sha'irullah
رسول الآلهة
Take of the word causality you used in the definition of superstition. It is a major difference to say the supernatural exists but it is a whole other to say that burning incense will control events in the supernatural.
Get my point?
I am referring to to how we can cause or personally involve ourselves in the supernatural.
As for the concept of predestination and the lack of will, it is still null and void.
Also I do not believe in free will or predestined will by a being, I believe all will i naturally destined in accordance to social issues, neurology and other worldly matters. I do not believe they are "controlled" by a deity of any kind.
Everything we do is destined by biology and natural existence not by the supernatural as modern science has routinely proven.