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Zakir Naik Debating

Thoughts

Member
Not all points of view are equal in terms of worth.

I am not talking about values but about purpose of each and every one
Of you

It is true not all points of view are equal
And it not necessarily one who criticize zakir have valued point of view
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I am not talking about values but about purpose of each and every one
Of you

It is true not all points of view are equal
And it not necessarily one who criticize zakir have valued point of view

'Course not.

But there's a difference.

I have my own, personal views on the Aesir and Vanir (the Gods of Asatru), as well as the other beings contained in our lore. These differ from traditional views that are held by other Asatru including many of our ancestors.

Because these views differ, I don't present them as representational of Asatru beliefs, but only of my own beliefs.

In regards to other religions, I make a very strong point to not speak of things I don't know about, so as not to misrepresent. If I think I know, but don't know for sure, I preface a statement with something like "as far as I know", which leaves my statement open to contradiction from actual practitioners, in which case I would retract my statement.

Does Naik do that?
 

Thoughts

Member
Examine what Naik says about other religions, and double check with independent sources to see if its accurate.

At least as far as Hinduism goes, what the man says is just laughably wrong.

But I don't recall anyone saying that Muslims follow him over the Qur'an and Hadith, or that he was even remotely on the same level of authority.

Zakir naik source and evidence for contrasting in bible

There are many contrast but I chose one

Will you accept Islam if I convinced you !

I will give you example

Contrasting by saying wine is good and allowed
In same time saying wing is bad and not allowed

# Wine allowed in bible

turning Jesus water to wine and drink it

Ecclesiastes 9:7 ESV / 16 helpful votes

Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.


Ecclesiastes 9:7 ESV / 16 helpful votes

Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Isaiah 5:22 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink,



# Wine not allowed in bible

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise

Leviticus 10:9 "You and your sons are not to drink wine


1) Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.

2) Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality

3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

4) Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.

5) Deuteronomy 21:20 - A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.

6) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.

7) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.

8) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.

9) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

10) 1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree.

11) 2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin.

12) 2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.

13) 1 Kings 16:8-10 - The king was drinking himself into drunkenness when he was assassinated

14) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.

15) Esther 1:5-12 - The king gave each one all the drink he wanted. The king was intoxicated when he commanded the queen to come.

16) Psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.

17) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

18) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

19) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Zakir naik source and evidence for contrasting in bible

There are many contrast but I chose one

Will you accept Islam if I convinced you !

No, because I don't follow the Bible, and I'll wager Naik knows absolutely nothing about what I follow.

I will give you example

Contrasting by saying wine is good and allowed
In same time saying wing is bad and not allowed

# Wine allowed in bible

turning Jesus water to wine and drink it

Ecclesiastes 9:7 ESV / 16 helpful votes

Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.


Ecclesiastes 9:7 ESV / 16 helpful votes

Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Isaiah 5:22 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink,



# Wine not allowed in bible

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise

Leviticus 10:9 "You and your sons are not to drink wine


1) Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.

2) Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality

3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.

4) Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.

5) Deuteronomy 21:20 - A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.

6) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.

7) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.

8) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.

9) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

10) 1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree.

11) 2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin.

12) 2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.

13) 1 Kings 16:8-10 - The king was drinking himself into drunkenness when he was assassinated

14) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.

15) Esther 1:5-12 - The king gave each one all the drink he wanted. The king was intoxicated when he commanded the queen to come.

16) Psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.

17) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

18) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

19) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.

Well, the Bible is not like the Qur'an, and does not claim that every single word was dictated to someone by God, in any case.

Furthermore, it could easily just be said that wine is a drink to be enjoyed, but not to excess because it can cause violence.

Doesn't matter to me, becasue not only do I not follow the Bible, I don't drink any alcohol.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3474870 said:
I wrote two posts in the Bhavishya Purana Thread in the HinduDIR regarding this topic. Have you checked them out? You will admire what I wrote. It was one of my first posts here on RF.

That bloody purana... I've never heard it mentioned in any other context other than people claiming it "prophesied" Mohammad.

You'll have to show me, because that thread is too far back for me to really go digging.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
That bloody purana... I've never heard it mentioned in any other context other than people claiming it "prophesied" Mohammad.

Haha. Read these two posts; you will enjoy them. I show the vibrant flaw in Christian proselytizers as well as Muslim proselytizers such as Zakir when they manipulate the Purana in question (which itself is a fabricated and manipulated purana) in order to persuade Hindus to convert.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3407837-post20.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3408471-post26.html
 

Thoughts

Member
'Course not.

But there's a difference.

I have my own, personal views on the Aesir and Vanir (the Gods of Asatru), as well as the other beings contained in our lore. These differ from traditional views that are held by other Asatru including many of our ancestors.

Because these views differ, I don't present them as representational of Asatru beliefs, but only of my own beliefs.

In regards to other religions, I make a very strong point to not speak of things I don't know about, so as not to misrepresent. If I think I know, but don't know for sure, I preface a statement with something like "as far as I know", which leaves my statement open to contradiction from actual practitioners, in which case I would retract my statement.

Does Naik do that?

You have to ask him

But I think you may got the answer from his speech
And all his evidence were realiable source just
Like I mentioned in previous source

I really don't thing there is more than one god
Because all countries have one leaders

We don't find there is more than one leader for
A country

If there were more than one god they must
Fight over leaders and they will result in disorganization
Of the world
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3475201 said:
Haha. Read these two posts; you will enjoy them. I show the vibrant flaw in Christian proselytizers as well as Muslim proselytizers such as Zakir when they manipulate the Purana in question (which itself is a fabricated and manipulated purana) in order to persuade Hindus to convert.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3407837-post20.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3408471-post26.html

Thanks. Those are very well-thought out arguments supported with actual links.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Because all countries have one leaders

We don't find there is more than one leader for
A country

America has more than one leader.

In any case, the universe is made of many, many forces working in tandem with each other, not just one. I may argue that gravity is the greatest force in the universe because it literally bends the fabric of reality itself and operates on such a massive scale, but it can be countered with other forces that may not be as far-reaching, but are stronger.
 
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Thoughts

Member
No, because I don't follow the Bible, and I'll wager Naik knows absolutely nothing about what I follow.



Well, the Bible is not like the Qur'an, and does not claim that every single word was dictated to someone by God, in any case.

Furthermore, it could easily just be said that wine is a drink to be enjoyed, but not to excess because it can cause violence.

Doesn't matter to me, becasue not only do I not follow the Bible, I don't drink any alcohol.

I know but they Are trying to cover the truth

So how they know which one was god words and which is human ?

Here is absolute words permit wine was not mentioned little

Leviticus 10:9 "You and your sons are not to drink wine


Matthew bible written by Matthew and so the rest

Matthew was not prophet and bible didn't mentioned him
He didn't see Jesus

As we know only the people I mentioned above connected to god

So either Matthew is laying about being bible word of god or he changed
Realiable source

Bible contain miracles like mentioning Noah arch so it is from Allah
And because Matthew didn't see god or talked to him so he changed
Some lines

If Matthew was talked by god it must be mentioned in bible but it doesn't

So there must be another prophet coming after Jesus to correct

That one is prophet Mohammad because there was no prophet after Jesus
Other than Mohammad pbuh

Prophet coming after Jesus

The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear


. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

So there prophet coming will honor one other than Jesus
Will talkin g about future
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I know but they Are trying to cover the truth

So how they know which one was god words and which is human ?

Here is absolute words permit wine was not mentioned little

Leviticus 10:9 "You and your sons are not to drink wine

Exaclty the type of misunderstanding that Naik proports:

9 “Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you will not die—it is a perpetual statute throughout your generations—

So, you're just not supposed to drink wine when you come into the tent of meeting according to the full verse.

Matthew bible written by Matthew and so the rest

Matthew was not prophet and bible didn't mentioned him
He didn't see Jesus

Maybe he did or maybe he didn't. Even amateur Biblical scholarship will reveal that we don't actually know the names of the people who wrote the Gosples, and thus we don't know who they are. The names ascribed to them in the titles were put there by later church leaders to establish their authority.

As we know only the people I mentioned above connected to god

So either Matthew is laying about being bible word of god or he changed
Realiable source

Bible contain miracles like mentioning Noah arch so it is from Allah
And because Matthew didn't see god or talked to him so he changed
Some lines

If Matthew was talked by god it must be mentioned in bible but it doesn't

So there must be another prophet coming after Jesus to correct

That one is prophet Mohammad because there was no prophet after Jesus
Other than Mohammad pbuh

Prophet coming after Jesus

The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear


. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

So there prophet coming will honor one other than Jesus
Will talkin g about future

How many times must it be said: the Bible is not the Qur'an, and so must not be read in the same way.

The Qur'an is a single massive work. The Bible, on the other hand, is a collection of Jewish and early Christian writings. There were actually tons of writings that were left out of the final Bible, which were pretty popular.
 

Thoughts

Member
Contrast in events

Two thieves were hanged beside Jesus in one Line mentioned
Both thieves laughed on Jesus and the other line says only one laughed
As we will see



Here we see that bible mentioned that both thieves laugh on Jesus but in the next line we

Will see that one of them will laugh and the other advice him not to laugh

So which story happened ?

Both thieves laugh :

38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to
destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.



Only One thieve laugh

Luke

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”


If Jesus came to save humanity by killing himself
So it must be known fact for all people

But these two thieve prove us that he didn't come to save world

Here Jesus running
Why he will run if it was by his intention

Pilates trying to release Jesus so why he may try to release him
If he came to kill his self

20 Wanting to release Jesus, Pilate appealed to them again. 21 But they kept shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”

While they hanged him they says god god why you left me

We notice that He is talking as if he was not hanged out by his own ...


Crucify him indicate that Quran is the truth
Because in Quran mentioned that some one was walking
To catch him and kill him
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to

Two thieves were hanged beside Jesus when the hanged him

Both laugh

Here we see that bible mentioned that both thieves laugh on Jesus but in the next line we

Will see that one of them will laugh and the other advice him not to laugh

So which story happened ?

destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.


One laugh only


Luke

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

If Jesus came to save humanity by killing himself
So we will see that no one will laugh on him

All people must know the fact

Here Jesus running
Why he will run if it was by his intention


20 Wanting to release Jesus, Pilate appealed to them again. 21 But they kept shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”

Crucify him indicate that Quran is the truth
Because in Quran mentioned that some one was walking
To catch him and kill him

...:facepalm: They're just two stories.
 

Thoughts

Member
Exaclty the type of misunderstanding that Naik proports:

9 “Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you will not die—it is a perpetual statute throughout your generations—

So, you're just not supposed to drink wine when you come into the tent of meeting according to the full verse.



Maybe he did or maybe he didn't. Even amateur Biblical scholarship will reveal that we don't actually know the names of the people who wrote the Gosples, and thus we don't know who they are. The names ascribed to them in the titles were put there by later church leaders to establish their authority.



How many times must it be said: the Bible is not the Qur'an, and so must not be read in the same way.

The Qur'an is a single massive work. The Bible, on the other hand, is a collection of Jewish and early Christian writings. There were actually tons of writings that were left out of the final Bible, which were pretty popular.

Bible Luke was called Luke because one who wrote it called Luke


Encyclopedia Britannica...
Saint Luke, (flourished 1st century ad), in Christian tradition, the author of the third Gospel and the ... cadre of itinerant Christian “workers,” many of whom were teachers and preachers.
 

Thoughts

Member
Even if it is not Luke so he is not any or prophets because jesus was last one sent by god

also he is not Jesus scholar

If it was one of them so bible must mention such thing

They don't know who wrote bible so they is possibility that bible
We're written by a deceiver

Same concept that argue bible has been changed in some situation

Like I mentioned before giving contrast events
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Bible Luke was called Luke because one who wrote it called Luke


Encyclopedia Britannica...
Saint Luke, (flourished 1st century ad), in Christian tradition, the author of the third Gospel and the ... cadre of itinerant Christian “workers,” many of whom were teachers and preachers.

You'll have to do better than Encyclopedia Britannica.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Even if it is not Luke so he is not any or prophets because jesus was last one sent by god

also he is not Jesus scholar

If it was one of them so bible must mention such thing

Why?

They don't know who wrote bible so they is possibility that bible
We're written by a deceiver

Same concept that argue bible has been changed in some situation

Like I mentioned before giving contrast events

There are Christians who regard the entire Tanakh as non-applicable in light of the New Testament. As for the Tanakh, I will defer to RF's Jews, who are far more knowledgeable in that rabbit hole than I could ever be.
 

Thoughts

Member
...:facepalm: They're just two stories.

Two different Story for same person in same time

Which story happened

The same story of Jesus while he hanged out

One time it says that both thieves next to Jesus were laughing on him

Notice both

Another time it say when Jesus hanged out only one of them laughed

Notice one

So it one who laughed or both

Which story happened

It is not fair tail story this real story happened according to their bibles

I am curious to know whether both thieves laughed on Jesus
Or only one ?

I am trying to let you understand what does naik meant by saying there is
Contrast
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Story for same person

Which story happened

Perhaps neither of them. Perhaps it's just a story.

I am trying to let you understand what does naik meant by saying there is
Contrast
You mean contradictions. That's just a given.

Now, why there are, my answer is that it's just what happens when you have a collection of otherwise independent works, tied together only by theme, whose authorship is often separated by centuries. It doesn't mean the Bible is worthless.
 
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