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Christians & Muslims

challupa

Well-Known Member
What makes you think I'm Christian or Muslim?

And I'm aware this happens.
No, it isn't a 'victim' mentality. It's an observation, and one which has been frequently verified over and over.



It should be expected that someone should have an understanding of how faith works, especially on a religious discussion and education forum.


And it's definitely more frequent from the non-theist non-religious camp here.
Okay, it's an observation. Fair enough. But if the poster internalizes it to be all that happens then it does have a chance of becoming a feeling of being victimizes for your beliefs.

I think most people do know and have an understanding of how faith works. It's that understanding that causes people to question. It is a forum of diverse beliefs. It makes sense that there would be discussion that would end up differing. Since the subject of religious beliefs is such an emotional one, it makes sense that sometimes people are more 'passionate' in their responses. That doesn't mean they don't value the person they are responding to though. Sometimes I think it's the belief that the 'religious' are naturally going to be persecuted. This comes directly from their religious teachings. I know some people who feel it is a privilege to be persecuted for their beliefs. Something I don't understand, but accept as being their belief. So depending on your viewpoint and whether you feel it is persecution, it will color how you interpret another's posts.

No I don't know what belief system you adhere to. I only responding to the fact that you feel those of religion are being 'picked on' unfairly.

As another poster stated, we all are subject to those who disagree with us. In fact I was just disagreed with by you. However, I don't take it personally and see it as a different point of view.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
I think most people do know and have an understanding of how faith works.
I've yet to really see it being even moderately widespread, let alone 'most people'.

And when it comes to, an actual bona-fide anti-theist, I've yet to see it even once.

That doesn't mean they don't value the person they are responding to though.
And many, many don't.


I only responding to the fact that you feel those of religion are being 'picked on' unfairly.
I don't 'feel' it. I downright know it.

I dare say that the overwhelming majority of theists on here have absolutely no qualms about disagreement, so long as there is respect. There is a lot of irreligious folk, both here and on the internet and real life as a whole, who believe that because they don't believe, it doesn't deserve their respect. And while that may or may not be true, they decide that if something is not worthy of their respect, it is their moral obligation to slander it and downright insult it.


And THEN a few irreligious folk still have the balls to wonder why our backs are up and we're on the defensive and ignore juvenile threads like this.
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
I've yet to really see it being even moderately widespread, let alone 'most people'.

And when it comes to, an actual bona-fide anti-theist, I've yet to see it even once.


And many, many don't.



I don't 'feel' it. I downright know it.

I dare say that the overwhelming majority of theists on here have absolutely no qualms about disagreement, so long as there is respect. There is a lot of irreligious folk, both here and on the internet and real life as a whole, who believe that because they don't believe, it doesn't deserve their respect. And while that may or may not be true, they decide that if something is not worthy of their respect, it is their moral obligation to slander it and downright insult it.


And THEN a few irreligious folk still have the balls to wonder why our backs are up and we're on the defensive and ignore juvenile threads like this.
I agree those people do exist. But I don't think it's the majority. And, we cannot know for sure if the person is merely speaking their belief or truly not valuing the other as a person.

I also agree the OP is not conducive to a good sharing of ideas. Since I don't know the reason behind the post, I don't know what 'spirit' it was put forth with.

Personally, I do try to state my beliefs without devaluing the other person. I do value everyone and I do respect their beliefs. However, sometimes I imagine what I say sometimes can be construed as an attack on beliefs. It's the nature of disagreement sometimes. So while we're on the topic, I do want to make it clear that I may disagree and state why, but I want others to know I do value them, am grateful for our sharing of beliefs and ideas and I do respect yours.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
The OP is right about one thing. For a long time, I'd see OPs such as this one and I would read it and back right out without replying. There was really no reason why I should reply. There are so many misconceptions and generalizations floating around about my faith and other faiths that I no longer wish to address them. It got a bit tiring.

And before you address it, yes, I know that there misconceptions about atheists and other religions as well.
 

Raban

Hagian
Well considering they are the two largest, they are the most diverse- and controversial. There are many arguments against them because their modern state is the result of thousands of years of both the best and the worst examples of human nature. Neither are secure in their own beliefs, though Islam is much closer due to it leaving a much smaller margin for interpretation than Christianity does. There does seem to be a deficiency of Christians and Muslims in the debate forums, in my belief it is due to the very fact they are dogmatic and in many cases unmovable in whatever position they hold. I personally loosely associate with being 'Christian' however I view theology, and 'divine law' very liberally, therefore I am not bound by seemingly fallible doctrine which many theists are.

The other major reason, which I know of from experience, is that threads like this seem to be a blatant attack on Christianity and Islam just as much as it is a discussion. Therefore why would I want to participate in a discussion like this if I knew it was attack on what I believe in?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
There seems to be a lack of Christians and Muslims in the 'General Religious Debates' part of this forum. Being the two largest religious groups in the world, you would think that they both would be able to argue their point very well after 1400 - 2000 years of practice. Yet that seems not to be the case. Could anyone explain why? I expect Christians and Muslims will ignore this topic, for the same reason they ignore all other GRD. They can not defend themselves when confronted with reality.

It depends on the topic, I think. We have Christian and Muslim members who chime in on threads discussing their religions, and many of them are very patient and respectful.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions and say that not responding necessarily means not being able to defend their viewpoints. Sometimes I don't respond to patently ridiculous OPs because they contain so many presumptions and stereotypes that it is obvious the person who wrote them isn't interested in education or understanding; just stereotyping and overgeneralizing entire groups (and this happens to both religious and non-religious ones; every group has its fundamentalists, religious or not).
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
We DO NOT!!!

I agree Christine and I believe I have never done so either.

As for sound theology I believe one can't get any more sound than Christianity. I suspect He is simply making that opinion because He doesn't know what sound theology is.
 
I haven't replied here for a while so here goes. "They can not defend themselves when confronted with reality."

Almost none of the Christian or Muslim responders addressed this line. The reason they did not is that both religions must rely on unrealistic and non-factual information in order to justify their beliefs. It is very hard to debate a religious stance using unproven and non-factual statements, especially with atheists and agnostics quoting known, well researched facts on the other side. Its very hard to use angels, satan, spirits, saints, gods patterned after humans, faith, hell, heaven, miracles and all other sorts of imaginary things to argue against facts, history, and science. I myself am not an atheist, agnostic, or troublemaker. But you would think that Christians and Muslims would have more to offer than just fictional stories handed down from an oral tradition many years ago. I recently had a short conversation with a Baptist preacher who did not know the history of his own bible. Did not know what a gnostic was, did not know what a hellenized jew was, did not know who Marcion was, who did not know what the Nag Hammadi library was, and last but not least, did not know that the authors of the books of the new testament were unknown. I only know personally two muslims. I have never figured out why they have such a obsession for virgins. I will ask next time, unless anyone wants to enlighten me.
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
I haven't replied here for a while so here goes. "They can not defend themselves when confronted with reality."

Almost none of the Christian or Muslim responders addressed this line. The reason they did not is that both religions must rely on unrealistic and non-factual information in order to justify their beliefs. It is very hard to debate a religious stance using unproven and non-factual statements, especially with atheists and agnostics quoting known, well researched facts on the other side. Its very hard to use angels, satan, spirits, saints, gods patterned after humans, faith, hell, heaven, miracles and all other sorts of imaginary things to argue against facts, history, and science. I myself am not an atheist, agnostic, or troublemaker. But you would think that Christians and Muslims would have more to offer than just fictional stories handed down from an oral tradition many years ago. I recently had a short conversation with a Baptist preacher who did not know the history of his own bible. Did not know what a gnostic was, did not know what a hellenized jew was, did not know who Marcion was, who did not know what the Nag Hammadi library was, and last but not least, did not know that the authors of the books of the new testament were unknown. I only know personally two muslims. I have never figured out why they have such a obsession for virgins. I will ask next time, unless anyone wants to enlighten me.
I know what you mean. I have found my birth mom and her family and they are fundamentalist Baptists. They don't believe in evolution and believe in a young earth. It was a shock to me when I first met them 15 years ago. I had no idea there were people who believed those things. It is rather frustrating when all they do is tell me I am going to hell if I don't give my life to Jesus, yet I know more about the history of their religion then they do. Of course, if you did know all the things it probably would make it harder to believe what they believe. So they just cover their ears and refuse to look at anything that contradicts their viewpoint. It's interesting and very challenging for me when I do visit because I am pretty much agnostic with heavy leaning towards there is no God. At least not a being like the major religions believe in. Pantheism is about as close as I get and that isn't really even a fit.
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
Pandeism maybe?

That's an interesting description. Never heard of it before. Thanks for posting that. However, it still isn't really how I see it either. I see everything that exists as being energy vibrating at different speeds. I see this energy as intelligent and only concerned about experiencing itself in infinite ways. I don't see it as being judgmental but rather only interested in creating in every way possible in order to experience. Curious.
 
Religion is disign / set-up for people who follow it to Disagree . Because of the many Sect's of Muslims , and the many Denomination Christians , With in these Sect's / Denomination Many diffrent Version are be taught to it follower , By Diffrent Scholar's , Theologian , Preachers , Teachers , Reverends , Rabbis , Imaams , Sheikhs , Pastor's , Minister .

Within these Sect's / Denomination by whatever name they call themselves , They are taught their own Version of their Belief's . All cliaming to have the Truth / Words of their God .

Their is a new form of Religion taught today without the use of Scriptures .People are writeing Testimony , Story-line's , Hadiyth's , Without backing up their cliam with Scriptures . Meaning giveing Lecture .
 
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