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Jesus the only Begotten Son of God.
- Thread starter farouk
- Start date
gilligan8914
Member
Jesus never claimed to be the only begotten son of god. Since Jesus himself never claimed this, where do you get your information? From other people besides Jesus?
SonofSonofGod
Member
Thanks but I blatantly reject any non KJV versions for a host of reasons but the main reason is most non-kjv Bibles are based on the Alexandrian text and the Alexandrian text was changed in some very dramatic ways over the original Hebrew and Greek text. Over 32,000 major changes were made so I consider any non-kjv actually apocryphal and confusing for doctrine.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
Dude! I personally translated it from the Greek.
ος εστιν εικων του θεου του αορατου πρωτοτοκος πασης κτισεως
Col 1:15 Who is in the image/representation of The Deity the invisible progenitor of all creation.
It is VERY clear that God is being called - the invisible progenitor of all creation - not Jesus.
*
SonofSonofGod
Member
Ah you didn't say, well then let me explain my interpretation of your translation so that we might understand the meaning.
ACTUAL Col 1:15 Who is in the image/representation of The Deity the invisible progenitor of all creation.
Okay first we established they are talking about Jesus as that didn't change. Second Who is in the image (copy) of the Deity (the physical form) of the starter (God) of all creation (Everything else)
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
The Greek word as used in the scriptures is mo·no·ge·nes′
Lexicographers say that it means “single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144)
And this word is used when describing, not only Jesus relationship to God, but also with regard to sons and daughters to their parents.
What this means is that when Jesus is described as the 'only begotten', it doesnt mean he has been produced through the 'birth' process as some muslim scholars claim it means.
It means that Jesus is a 'one of a kind' Hence a 'one of a kind' in relation to Gods creations. There is no other like him.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
The word means image/representation, not the same as, - it specifically calls God the progenitor. Jesus is just a representative - not God - as is made plain in the verses above this one. Jesus (and his disciples) claim he is the awaited Hebrew Messiah - whom was not God - but a special one sent to do certain prophesied things.
* Thought I should add that the meaning is that Jesus is the visible representative of the Invisible God.
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farouk
Active Member
Peace to all.
Firstly i am very glad that non of my Christians brothers and sisters believe that Jesus was not begotten of God because begotten means to procreate and procreate means to conceive and conceive means to have sex and become pregnant.This offcouse will be blasphemy.
Now lets take the subject futher.
Questions.
1.If monogenes means unique,one of a kind,etc...then why was not the word
" MONADIKOS" used?
For argument sake if we have to accept monogenes to mean unique or one of a kind then this word is used many times in the bible.
Luke7:12....Luke8:42....Luke 9:38....Heb11:17.....John3:18....and the list goes on....
2.Why does not the unique or one of a kind fit into the meaning of the above verses?
3.How is Jesus unique?
4.Why does the verse call Jesus the "the only son of God".
Finally lets look at this verse.
Matthew 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
"20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit".
The word used here is conceived.Conceived means to become pregnant with offspring.
5.Who is this Holy Spirit that conceived Mary?
Peace and God bless.
Have a wonderful day.
Farouk
Firstly i am very glad that non of my Christians brothers and sisters believe that Jesus was not begotten of God because begotten means to procreate and procreate means to conceive and conceive means to have sex and become pregnant.This offcouse will be blasphemy.
Now lets take the subject futher.
Questions.
1.If monogenes means unique,one of a kind,etc...then why was not the word
" MONADIKOS" used?
For argument sake if we have to accept monogenes to mean unique or one of a kind then this word is used many times in the bible.
Luke7:12....Luke8:42....Luke 9:38....Heb11:17.....John3:18....and the list goes on....
2.Why does not the unique or one of a kind fit into the meaning of the above verses?
3.How is Jesus unique?
4.Why does the verse call Jesus the "the only son of God".
Finally lets look at this verse.
Matthew 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
"20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit".
The word used here is conceived.Conceived means to become pregnant with offspring.
5.Who is this Holy Spirit that conceived Mary?
Peace and God bless.
Have a wonderful day.
Farouk
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
According to you. But that was never the intended meaning by the church.
You don't get to come along and a) dictate definitions of your own volition and then b) tell us that, according to that definition, we're "wrong."
If you insist on doing that, then, playing by your rules, I opine that "Allah" means "the Flying Spaghetti Monster" and claim that you're following a non-existent "deity."
Jesus is God Incarnate.
The third Person of the Trinity. In other words: God.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Yep. A special one sent, and we are to assume he is the "special" awaited Messiah. But not God.
*
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
If you examine how the word monogenes is used it the above scriptures you site, you will see that it really does mean 'one of a kind'
A woman who only had the one child
Luke 7:12 As he got near the gate of the city, why, look! there was a dead man being carried out, the only-begotten son of his mother. Besides, she was a widow. A considerable crowd from the city was also with her.
A father with an only child who was dying
Luke 8:42 because he had an only-begotten daughter about twelve years old and she was dying
A man with only 1 son who had taken ill
Luke 9:38And, look! a man cried out from the crowd, saying: “Teacher, I beg you to take a look at my son, because he is my only-begotten,
Heb 11:17
Abraham had only 1 legitimate child, Isaac. He was the 'child of promise'...the child whom God gave to Abraham during his old age.
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only-begotten [son],
This list all have one thing in common. Each of these 'only begotten' children were the single of their kind to their parents. And that is what Jesus is to God.... a single of his kind.... a one of a kind created by God.
Jesus was the very first of Gods creations. and that makes him unique. Just as if you have your first child, he becomes your 'firstborn'....no other of your children can be called that. It is a title that only your first can receive by virtue of him/her being the first. That makes him unique.
because all other creations in heaven and on earth were created through Jesus. Jesus is the Master Worker spoken of in the proverbs:
22*“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23*From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth....30*then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,
A 'master worker' is traditionally an apprentice. They learn a trade from the 'master craftsmen' and carry on the work of the craftsmen as his 'master worker'
Jesus was the first creation of Gods own hand, but after that, all other of Gods living creations came into existence through Jesus hand.
And that is why Jesus is the only one who can say that he is Gods 'only' son. He is the only one directly brought into being by God alone. We are all brought into being through the work of Jesus.
the holy spirit is God power. It is the same power spoken of in Genesis where Gods holy spirit was 'moving to and fro over the surface of the waters'
Just as God restored the procreative powers of Abraham and Sarah when they were very old (in their 90's) God intervened to place the life of his son into the womb of Mary so that Jesus could be born into the world as a human.
It is no different to an IVF doctor implanting an embryo from a testube into the womb of a woman. No sexual intercourse needs to take place for that to happen. The doctor simply takes a living embryo and manually places it directly into the womb of a woman.
That is what God did with the life of his first Son. He transferred his life into an embryonic state and placed him inside Mary's womb.
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nash8
Da man, when I walk thru!
But it is never stated that he directly calls himself God, no? Alot of Roman emperor's "disciples" called them God, does that mean that they too are God?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
That doesn't matter.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Yep, plus they are using one specific translation of words which have many meanings.
King David was worshiped - and he obviously wasn't God.
People were called Gods - and they obviously weren't. "Ye are Gods."
Nothing about Jesus in the Bible - has to be taken as he is God.
*
farouk
Active Member
sojourner
Let me put things in clear perspective.
Firstly
Nothing i state is from me or my back pocket.Every word that i define is from "thefreedictionary".If there is mistranslation of any word then that is not my fault.It is fault of the church and they must rectify it.
Secondly
This is a debate and the debate is regarding weather Jesus is the only begotten son of God?Please keep to the topic.
Finally
If your intellect is having a problem in answering simple questions then don't get all emotionaly charged up and start mud slinging in calling God "the Flying Spaghetti Monster".Although its your privilege but please do it in a new thread.
FYI all humans call their object of worship according to their launguage.
The English call theirs God.
The Phoenicians ....Allon.
The Canaanities....Ado
The Israelites.....Adonai
The Portuguese...Deus
The French ....Dieu
The Italian....Dio
The Spanish....Dios
The Scotish and Irish....Dia
The Welsh...Duw
The Arabs.....Allah
The Hindu....Aum
The Aborigine....atnatu.
And so the list goes on and on ....
all the above are defined in English as God but the difference is the different concepts that one has for his or her God.
What intrigued me most was the concept of the Aborigine God they call Atnatu.The meaning of Atnatu is "the one without an anus-the one without any flaw".What shocked me was the fact that primitive people had a far better understanding of their concept of God than todays so called civilised people.Todays civilised society is lacking in their intellect because they call their God a being that has human qualities of eating and drinking.Its obvious if you eat and drink then you will definately will have to go to the toilet.imagine a God going into the bush to answer the call of nature.
Peace
Farouk
Pegg
Your reply is forthcoming.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
In the Bible Jesus is not God, he is a special one sent from God. When you read the verses in the original languages - nowhere does it say Jesus is actually God.
*
farouk
Active Member
Peace to all.
Pegg
Tks for your reply.
Lets examine what you have stated and take the subject futher and see weather it makes all logical sense.
Heb 11:17 your statement "Abraham has only 1 legitimate child"....this is not true because you are ignorant of what your bible says.
Let me enlighten you.
Genesis 16:3 "So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years,Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife".
As you can read that Hagar was the wife of Abram and hence the child that Abram begat was Ishmael his first born.
Hence we can deduce that monogenes does not refer to one or only child.
Now for argument sake lets give you the benefit of the doubt again.Note this is the second time we are giving you the benefit of the doubt and the third time we are not going to do it.
Lets look into another verse in the bible.
Psalm 2:7
"I will proclaim the Lord's decree:
He said to me,"you are my son,
today i have become your father".
The above is a prophecy that Christians say Jesus fulfilled.
The word in Hebrew in the above verse for "son" is "Yalad" which in english means biological son.
Hence if Jesus fulfilled the above prophecy,that Christians claim,then it means that Jesus is the biological son of God.(God forbid because that is blasphemy).
The question again.
Is Jesus the only begotten(biological) son of God or not?
If Jesus is not the biological son of God then the above verse could refer to David and that will make him much superior and unique than Jesus.
Note you cannot have it both ways.Its head you lose and tails you lose.
Peace and have a wonderful day.
Farouk
Pegg
Tks for your reply.
Lets examine what you have stated and take the subject futher and see weather it makes all logical sense.
Heb 11:17 your statement "Abraham has only 1 legitimate child"....this is not true because you are ignorant of what your bible says.
Let me enlighten you.
Genesis 16:3 "So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years,Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife".
As you can read that Hagar was the wife of Abram and hence the child that Abram begat was Ishmael his first born.
Hence we can deduce that monogenes does not refer to one or only child.
Now for argument sake lets give you the benefit of the doubt again.Note this is the second time we are giving you the benefit of the doubt and the third time we are not going to do it.
Lets look into another verse in the bible.
Psalm 2:7
"I will proclaim the Lord's decree:
He said to me,"you are my son,
today i have become your father".
The above is a prophecy that Christians say Jesus fulfilled.
The word in Hebrew in the above verse for "son" is "Yalad" which in english means biological son.
Hence if Jesus fulfilled the above prophecy,that Christians claim,then it means that Jesus is the biological son of God.(God forbid because that is blasphemy).
The question again.
Is Jesus the only begotten(biological) son of God or not?
If Jesus is not the biological son of God then the above verse could refer to David and that will make him much superior and unique than Jesus.
Note you cannot have it both ways.Its head you lose and tails you lose.
Peace and have a wonderful day.
Farouk
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Actually she was Sarai's slave , and it says she GAVE her to be his WOMAN - to rape as a broodmare - to produce the child Sarai couldn't.
The child is legitimate because their law allowed them to do this.
What is horrible - is that she misuses her slave in this manner - producing a child she will claim as hers - per law - and then when she herself gets pregnant - tells him to toss the child and his slave mother - AND HE DOES!
*
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Here's what you said:
First, that may be what thefreedictionary says, but thefreedictionary doesn't tke into consideration theological derfinitions, which are usually specialized. That definition has never been what Christians mean by the term -- and Xtians have been around a lot longer than thefreedictionary, so we don't need to "rectify" anything. As you may be aware, there are usually several definitions for any given term. The one you use does not address theological parameters, so your argument fails.
Second, the doctrine of the Trinity is central to the argument of Jesus as God's "only-begotten Son." It is within the parameters of the topic. If you don't understand that, then perhaps you might consider not debating what you clearly don't understand.
Finally, the narrow and agenda-driven term "flying spaghetti monster" reflects your narrow and agenda-driven definition supplied here, and thus illustrates how jejune your argument is. It's an intentional lampoon, which is what you're doing here -- intentionally lampooning a valid Xtian doctrine with a "legal" definition. Puerile. At best.
If your intellect is having a problem putting forth a valid argument that's worth addressing, then don't blame my pointing it out with an apropos illustration. Perhaps you should consider such arguments in another thread covering a topic more germane to your doctrinal understanding.
It is interesting to note that after the resurrection of Jesus Christ he was never call the 'only begotten son of God' again, he was then called 'first born among the brethren'.
After the resurrection the Apostle Paul states: Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
I John 3:1-2, "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God..."
After the resurrection the Apostle Paul states: Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
I John 3:1-2, "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God..."