Did Jesus say he was God???

BornAgain · Aug 19, 2013

cataway said:
i find it odd that any trinitarian would even try to use the bible to say it's in the bible when clearly there is no trinty .
or maybe they really dont use the bible and are just making up what they want because it makes them feel good.

So, what bible are you talking about, the NWT?
I could just easily google you guys and see how many times you adulterated the word of God just to please your theology.

John 8:58 NWT- “Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been””.
Literal Greek Text- “Said to them Jesus Amen amen I am saying to you Before Abraham to become I Am.”

Here Notice the change the Greek words ego eimi (I AM) into I have been?

MORE OF THAT WHERE IT CAME FROM

captainbryce · Aug 19, 2013

BornAgain said:
You can't tell the difference, can you?

I just told you the difference. Is this dialogue actually relevant to the discussion? Anytime you feel like making a point, I'm all ears. :sleep:

BornAgain · Aug 19, 2013

Shermana said:
So far at page 764, nothing about Jesus saying he's God. We've seen some abuse of the "I am" statement which has been quickly corrected, but nothing else.

SO FAR AT PAGE 765, NOTHING ABOUT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST SAYING HE WAS JUST A CREATION OF GOD.
WEVE SEEN SOME ABUSE ABOUT THE DELUSIONAL ANGELS THEORY WHICH I DISPROVED OVER, AND OVER AGAIN.

Shermana said:
Originally Posted by Shermana View Post
And also for the record, the Angels may have been created before the Creation of the world itself.

There's no reason to assume they were created on days 2-5 or even 1.

It may even say that "gods" created the Heavens and Earth, under His direction.

(And the idea that "Bara" only entails to God Himself and not gods is based on seemingly circular reasoning from apologists, especially when other forms are used for "God Created" ). Or the "Word" was created as the Prototype and Vehicle of Existence before the Creation process as it clearly says in Proverbs 8. There are a few plausible explanations besides the one you want to assert as the only one. Think about that.

"Bara" and the "Son of God"

The word 'Bara' simply means "Son of God". In other words, the Son of God was the Creator, as described by John;

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:1)

BornAgain · Aug 19, 2013

captainbryce said:
I just told you the difference. Is this dialogue actually relevant to the discussion? Anytime you feel like making a point, I'm all ears. :sleep:

Why dont you do the research to keep you awake. Or ask your friend shermana.

captainbryce · Aug 19, 2013

BornAgain said:
Why don’t you do the research to keep you awake. Or ask your friend shermana.

1) That's not necessary. The question has been asked, answered, and the case is now closed....UNLESS you have something to add. It's not my job to make your case for you. If you have a point to make, then make it. If not, I rest my case!

2) I have no "friends" here. I'm not here to make friends.

BornAgain · Aug 19, 2013

Shermana said:
For the 1000th time or so on this thread: Ahem...

The name told to Moses is "I shall be". Ehyeh is simply not Present Tense. English translations are persistently incorrect in that sense, but they are correct if "I am" is not read as an absolute present tense statement but in the vein of "I shall be".

Jesus does not say his name is I am. He would have to say "My name is I am", rather than simply stating "I am". To avoid this abuse of John 8:58, which they claim is ultimately Modalistic, esteemed Trinitarian Professors Goodspeed and Moffatt translate John 8:58 as "I have been", especially so in that it's keeping in the same tense as "Abraham was". The verb "Ego Eimi" does not necessarily always imply immediate Present tense.

The correct translation of John 8:58. List of alternate readings to "I am."

Jesus and God are not one and the same.

In Greek, the words recorded in John 8:58 are "'prin abraam genesthai ego eimi." Literally, this is "Before Abraham was existing, I am." "Ego eimi" is literally, "I am." This is the present tense. To say "I have been" is to use the perfect tense. In Greek, this would have been "aemane." But Jesus didn't use it here. He used the present tense, "ego eimi" which is "I am."

CARM

captainbryce · Aug 19, 2013

BornAgain said:
In Greek, the words recorded in John 8:58 are "'prin abraam genesthai ego eimi." Literally, this is "Before Abraham was existing, I am." "Ego eimi" is literally, "I am." This is the present tense. To say "I have been" is to use the perfect tense. In Greek, this would have been "aemane." But Jesus didn't use it here. He used the present tense, "ego eimi" which is "I am."

CARM

You seem to have a problem following the basic logic of Shermana's position here. Did you even read what he wrote? :sarcastic

Point 1:

The name told to Moses is "I shall be". Ehyeh is simply not Present Tense.

Ergo: God did NOT say "I AM" (present tense), he literally said "I shall become who I am becoming" (future tense)

Point 2:

Jesus does not say his name is I am. He would have to say "My name is I am", rather than simply stating "I am".

Ergo:

A) Jesus was never identifying himself BY NAME (as God was)

B) Jesus saying "I am" has become completely IRRELEVANT, and unrelated to the context of what God was talking about since God NEVER said that in the first place!

What part about that do you not understand?

Point 3: (my point)
Greek is different from Hebrew. It doesn't matter that Jesus spoke in the "present tense" in Greek instead of "past tense" because that fact doesn't relate to what tense God spoke in Exodus 3:14 (which is future tense). The language, context, and the very message that he was delivering was completely different! Nothing about their two statements is similar once you dig a little deeper and get past the respective language barriers.

challupa · Aug 19, 2013

Muffled said:
I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.

Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

Question, if someone 'now' said these things, would you believe them?

Shermana · Aug 19, 2013

BornAgain said:
SO FAR AT PAGE 765, NOTHING ABOUT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST SAYING HE WAS JUST A CREATION OF GOD.
WEVE SEEN SOME ABUSE ABOUT THE DELUSIONAL ANGELS THEORY WHICH I DISPROVED OVER, AND OVER AGAIN.

"Bara" and the "Son of God"

The word 'Bara' simply means "Son of God". In other words, the Son of God was the Creator, as described by John;

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:1)

"Word was a god".

Now as we see in Proverbs 8, Wisdom, the First Created Being, was the Primary Instrument of Creation. Philo attests this as well with his essay on the Logos, which he most likely didn't just fashion out of thin air but was prevalent Jewish theology at the time. Simply put, the "Firstborn of Creation" was the one who was given the Fashioning Power over all Creation, with the Father as the Foreman of the Construction.

captainbryce · Aug 19, 2013

BornAgain said:
SO FAR AT PAGE 765, NOTHING ABOUT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST SAYING HE WAS JUST A CREATION OF GOD.

Proverbs 8:22-23
22 The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

You're welcome!

BornAgain said:
The word 'Bara' simply means "Son of God".

Um....actually, the word "Bara" means to "create".

Genesis 1:1 ’ĕ·lō·hîm - bā·rā - bə·rê·šîṯ (God created in the beginning)

Shermana · Aug 19, 2013

But...but...but...."Firstborn" can mean "Most eminent" therefore it can't POSSIBLY be literal in that context...or something.

By the way Bryce, the word is not even "over", the "over" is simply not there in the text, it's pretty much "of", the "over" is a great example of how Trinitarian translations will deliberately distort and change the text to get it to say what they want.

captainbryce · Aug 19, 2013

Shermana said:
But...but...but...."Firstborn" can mean "Most eminent" therefore it can't POSSIBLY be literal in that context...or something.

Shermana said:
By the way Bryce, the word is not even "over", the "over" is simply not there in the text, it's pretty much "of", the "over" is a great example of how Trinitarian translations will deliberately distort and change the text to get it to say what they want.

I'm aware of that, and that is a good point. I tend to quote from the New Living Translation (which is a thought for thought text). I'm aware that it is not exact, but it is often useful in getting across a point in a very simple, plain English way.

1robin · Aug 20, 2013

challupa said:
Question, if someone 'now' said these things, would you believe them?

If that same person did those things then yes.

Muffled · Aug 20, 2013

captainbryce said:
Except to say that Jesus was also in the beginning.

John 1:2
He was with God in the beginning.

The He refers to The Word. It is true that the word became flesh: John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. but this is largely metaphorical because spirit does not become flesh. However spirit does bond to flesh and become a living soul. However the reverse is not true that the flesh preceded the spirit in the beginning and without it there is no Jesus.

However The Word is an attribute of the Spirit and therefore is present in the beginning and in Jesus.

Muffled · Aug 20, 2013

Shermana said:
For the 1000th time or so on this thread: Ahem...

The name told to Moses is "I shall be". Ehyeh is simply not Present Tense. English translations are persistently incorrect in that sense, but they are correct if "I am" is not read as an absolute present tense statement but in the vein of "I shall be".

Jesus does not say his name is I am. He would have to say "My name is I am", rather than simply stating "I am". To avoid this abuse of John 8:58, which they claim is ultimately Modalistic, esteemed Trinitarian Professors Goodspeed and Moffatt translate John 8:58 as "I have been", especially so in that it's keeping in the same tense as "Abraham was". The verb "Ego Eimi" does not necessarily always imply immediate Present tense.

The correct translation of John 8:58. List of alternate readings to "I am."

Jesus and God are not one and the same.

In English I shall be means that Jesus didn't exist as He said it and it would have meant that Yahweh didn't exist until He said it. In both cases "i shall be" is a false translation.

Muffled · Aug 20, 2013

challupa said:
Question, if someone 'now' said these things, would you believe them?

I have Jesus in me. He would have no trouble identifying Himself.

Reasonably speaking the Anti-Christ is supposed to do just that and perform miracles so that a Christian without the presence of God would be in danger of believing that old liar.

captainbryce · Aug 20, 2013

Muffled said:
The He refers to The Word. It is true that the word became flesh: John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. but this is largely metaphorical because spirit does not become flesh. However spirit does bond to flesh and become a living soul. However the reverse is not true that the flesh preceded the spirit in the beginning and without it there is no Jesus.

However The Word is an attribute of the Spirit and therefore is present in the beginning and in Jesus.

Fair enough. That is a plausible enough interpretation for me.

dgbtex · Aug 20, 2013

We don't know for sure what he actually said.

challupa · Aug 22, 2013

1robin said:
If that same person did those things then yes.

Would you recognize that? I think you are unique if you would accept that anyone other than Jesus could do the things he did.

One of the things that we need to remember is that all the writing done in the NT was done with the motivation to make Jesus a new leader of a new religion. It was written by people who in some cases never even met Jesus while he was alive. Jesus himself never wrote anything that we know of. In their fervor to make Jesus a divine leader of their new 'spirituality' they attributed a whole lot of things to him. None, however, are known to be true. He may have been an immensely wise and evolved human being, but the things that were attributed to him, like raising people from the dead etc. could all be symbolic referrals to people being spiritually dead and Jesus touching their lives and awakening them to a new 'life'. Healing the sick could very easily been the same. Healing the blind, yes, once again their eyes were opened and they saw the truth of things for the first time. It doesn't mean it had to be physical and it doesn't mean that there was anything he did that was God like in that sense.

Much of what he taught wasn't new. It had already been taught by others that came before him. Eastern philosophy believed in a more 'passive' ideology. Buddha said many of the things that Jesus later taught. It was new to the Jews, but not to many that grew up in the Eastern religions.

So that's why I ask Christians, if there was someone that said they were speaking with God and he told them certain new things that could change the world for the better, would people listen to them, or would they denounce that person as being a fraud because they were not Jesus?

Do people believe that God stopped communicating new revelations 2000 years ago? Or do you believe there could be new information coming through individuals that could change the world and how we do things. Things that might bring more happiness, harmony and unity? If not, why not? If yes, what would that look like to you?

challupa · Aug 22, 2013

Muffled said:
I have Jesus in me. He would have no trouble identifying Himself.

Reasonably speaking the Anti-Christ is supposed to do just that and perform miracles so that a Christian without the presence of God would be in danger of believing that old liar.

But couldn't the belief in an 'anti-christ' just be the duality of nature? Is it evil for someone who is not a Christian to heal another person for example? Does that make it the work of the 'devil'? Is the devil really an entity separate from God or is it the duality of nature in the physical world? We have the capacity for both natures. We choose daily what nature we reveal to the world through our actions. There are many in this world that are not Christians that do not even believe in God and they are doing wonderful, healing actions. Are these the actions of the devil trying to deceive? Or are they human beings in action choosing how they wish to walk through this world?

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