Would You Like Fries With That?

Buttercup · Feb 9, 2006

Seems to me that the People-Who-Do-Not-Believe-In-God are always trying to get the People-Who-Do-Believe-In-God to prove God exists.

I would like to approach the subject of God vs. No God from a different angle.

From a PERSONAL perspective, I would like to hear the No God people tell the God Believers how our lives would be BETTER without God in it.

Please dont bring into the debate ANY references to current or past events that might point out the negatives of religious beliefs. Lets keep this on a personal level.Try to convert us to Atheism.

I would like to know how a life lived believing there is No God would be a better life than a life lived believing In God.

Jaymes · Feb 9, 2006

It's not a matter of how our life would be better or worse without a god(s)(esses) in it, but rather if they are even there to begin with. Our life would be better if we could get blue imps that require no food or fuel to fly food to poverty-stricken areas for us, but that doesn't mean they exist.

Whether a life believing in gods/esses would be better than one without believing would vary from person to person. I would feel miserable if I believed in a higher power, to know that something could sit there and do something about all the crap happening today and pointedly do absolutely nothing. Of course, some people get comfort from the idea of a higher power watching over them. So it does work for some people. I'm just not one of them.

standing_alone · Feb 9, 2006

Well, first off, you don't have to live in fear of the wrath of an angry god who will punish you if you break any of his little rules. You don't have to sit around in church listening to boring sermons and giving donations to appease said angry god. You don't have to live your life as a robot controlled by god. You get to make your own actions - they aren't predetermined by god. Plus, every decision you make, you don't have to fear if god approves. If you think it's good or bad, that's all that matters. You don't have to worry that god will disagree and punish you.

BucephalusBB · Feb 9, 2006

I don't like converting.

And i see no reason why to tell you that a life without God would be better. I don't think I should believe that what is better, but that what is more logical.

But ok.
A life without God would mean that it is a life created by itself or whatsoever. It would mean that we can follow the rules WE created insteda of the ones God created.
Religious people would like God to watch their back. However, their lifes are exactly as secure as our atheist lifes. I see everything in this world happening and I can give reasons for everything that happens. Including war and hurricanes, humans being killed and cloning.
I have no questions about things in the bible that contradicts with eachother. I cannot be insulted by cartoons. I don't have the fearr that I have some Leader that can do to the world what he wants.
And much more but I have to go home

Majikthise · Feb 9, 2006

You could sleep in on Sunday.
You could say, think and draw whatever you want, blasphemy would be non-exsistant for you.
No wasted time praying and wearing out the knees on your good pants.
There wouldn't be a whole lot anyone could say to horribly offend you.
You won't spend all that time worrying about other people not going to heaven or burning in hell.
You can still celebrate christmas if you so choose, and call it christmas.
No problems with halloween.
You'll get a good laugh when someone finds out your an atheist and says, "so, you worship satan?".:devil:

angellous_evangellous · Feb 9, 2006

Buttercup said:
Seems to me that the People-Who-Do-Not-Believe-In-God are always trying to get the People-Who-Do-Believe-In-God to prove God exists.

I would like to approach the subject of God vs. No God from a different angle.

From a PERSONAL perspective, I would like to hear the No God people tell the God Believers how our lives would be BETTER without God in it.

Please dont bring into the debate ANY references to current or past events that might point out the negatives of religious beliefs. Lets keep this on a personal level.Try to convert us to Atheism.

I would like to know how a life lived believing there is No God would be a better life than a life lived believing In God.

If atheists tried to convert people, it would go against the purposes of RF. Isn't there a rule against this?

From the atheist/agnostic perspective, whether life is better with or without God is irrelevant. God can't make anyone's life better because God doesn't exist.

The question should be does religion make one's life better, because everyone can agree that religion exists, and we all know that religion is one of the most harmful things that humanity has invented.

I have been approaching religion as a form of government. We know that government is needed, and that it is good. However, governments kill their own people and engage in wars. There's good and bad, but I think that it is rather easy to argue that although harmful, it is better for humanity to have government.

Buttercup · Feb 9, 2006

angellous_evangellous said:
If atheists tried to convert people, it would go against the purposes of RF. Isn't there a rule against this?

From the atheist/agnostic perspective, whether life is better with or without God is irrelevant. God can't make anyone's life better because God doesn't exist.

The question should be does religion make one's life better, because everyone can agree that religion exists, and we all know that religion is one of the most harmful things that humanity has invented.

Firstly, it's a hypothetical question about the converting...I don't mean it in a serious way. Mostly, just try to convince me that a life without God is a better life.

Secondly, your second paragraph is not in line with what I am asking.

Thirdly, there are many who believe in God but have no religion per se. And this is a question asked on a personal basis in the original OP....not about what 'bad' there is in religious movements.

Green Gaia · Feb 9, 2006

angellous_evangellous said:
If atheists tried to convert people, it would go against the purposes of RF. Isn't there a rule against this?

Yup.

But as long as this is just a hypothetical "how would you try to convert people," then I think it's OK - for now.

Buttercup · Feb 9, 2006

standing_alone said:
Well, first off, you don't have to live in fear of the wrath of an angry god who will punish you if you break any of his little rules. You don't have to sit around in church listening to boring sermons and giving donations to appease said angry god. You don't have to live your life as a robot controlled by god. You get to make your own actions - they aren't predetermined by god. Plus, every decision you make, you don't have to fear if god approves. If you think it's good or bad, that's all that matters. You don't have to worry that god will disagree and punish you.

I appreciate your honest comments Standing Alone but I just don't see it this way at all as a person who believes in God. I bet my day to day life is lived much like yours.

As far as church being boring, I enjoy church very much as the pastor is funny and inspiring. We do not go every Sunday however, perhaps once or twice a month. And I don't feel one whit of guilt about that either.

As far as rules...I don't feel a noose around my neck at all. I do almost everything I want to. If we go to a basketball game and want to stop for a beer afterwards...that's fine! IF I use a bad word hear or there....what's the problem with that? I don't think God is looking down at me ready to strike me with lightning if I say "dammit!"

Plus, I am very happy! And my security with God and my family has alot to do with it. I get comfort from my life with God. And it's not about the afterlife either. It's in the day to day things. I draw comfort from talking to God....it's freeing I think.

standing_alone · Feb 9, 2006

I appreciate your honest comments Standing Alone but I just don't see it this way at all as a person who believes in God. I bet my day to day life is lived much like yours.

As far as church being boring, I enjoy church very much as the pastor is funny and inspiring. We do not go every Sunday however, perhaps once or twice a month. And I don't feel one whit of guilt about that either.

As far as rules...I don't feel a noose around my neck at all. I do almost everything I want to. If we go to a basketball game and want to stop for a beer afterwards...that's fine! IF I use a bad word hear or there....what's the problem with that? I don't think God is looking down at me ready to strike me with lightning if I say "dammit!"

Plus, I am very happy! And my security with God and my family has alot to do with it. I get comfort from my life with God. And it's not about the afterlife either. It's in the day to day things. I draw comfort from talking to God....it's freeing I think.

Yeah, but if any of those things you do (whether you realize it or not) makes god angry, you're going to be punished.

Popeyesays · Feb 9, 2006

standing_alone said:
Yeah, but if any of those things you do (whether you realize it or not) makes god angry, you're going to be punished.

I note that you speak as if there IS a "god" to get angry with people who believe in "him/her".

The purpose of religion is not to create fear.
"The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure"
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 215)

Why should one fear?

Regards,
Scott

Buttercup · Feb 9, 2006

I agree with Popeyesays: If you do believe in God...there is nothing to fear..From the OT & NT,"

2 TIMOTHY 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of
love and of a sound mind.

JOSHUA 1:9
Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage;
do not be afraid, nor be dismayed, for the Lord your God is
with you wherever you go.

ISAIAH 41:10
Fear not, for I am with you; be not desmayed, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you, yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with
My righteous right hand.

JOHN 14:27
Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives
do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

jewscout · Feb 9, 2006

Majikthise said:
You could sleep in on Sunday.

hehe i already sleep in on sunday:bounce

nutshell · Feb 9, 2006

jewscout said:
hehe i already sleep in on sunday:bounce

My too...my church starts at 1 p.m. :jam:

Halcyon · Feb 9, 2006

Well, i guess we're concentrating on the God of Abraham as usual?

Well, these are the things that in my humblest of opinions make me happy for not believing in that form of deity.

1. If you don't believe in creation, then you most likely believe in evolution. For me, evolution shows us that in a sense, all life on earth is one family. It means instead of feeling separate from the animals and plants, instead of feeling like a special creature specifically designed by God - I respect and care about all life, I don't feel superior to any other being, even if I eat some of them.

2. Same as point 1. Feeling a part of the universe instead of a character placed into the universe by God allows me to feel at one with existence, at peace with my surroundings. Also I recognise that we are a product of our environment, not that the environment was created for us. This means I believe strongly in conservation and environmental protection.

3. I try to live in a compassionate and peaceful way because I respect all life and all peoples as part of my extended family. I recognise we are all one. I don't do good to earn browny points with God so that I get to go to heaven.

4. With no external deity looking over you and judging you, then you yourself are your own judge. There's no forgiveness from a divine source, you have to forgive yourself and seek it from the one you've harmed. If you can't forgive yourself for hurting another, that's a big incentive for being nice.

5. With no God or Devil influencing people and controlling events, you see things as they truly are - chance events. This is far easier to accept and come to terms with than a supposedly loving God who never seems to act.

michel · Feb 9, 2006

You could sleep in on Sunday.

Being a Christian doesn't stop me from doing that; I am not a church goer.

You could say, think and draw whatever you want, blasphemy would be non-exsistant for you.

Evil is in the eye of the beholder, besides, blasphemy is all a bit silly.

No wasted time praying and wearing out the knees on your good pants.

I pray standing up.

There wouldn't be a whole lot anyone could say to horribly offend you.

No body ever offends me.

You won't spend all that time worrying about other people not going to heaven or burning in hell.

I don't spend a miniute worrying; there is no hell!

You can still celebrate christmas if you so choose, and call it christmas.

I do; no problem.

No problems with halloween.

I have no problem with halloween

You'll get a good laugh when someone finds out your an atheist and says, "so, you worship satan?".:devil:

The one point I will concede to you!:bow:

standing_alone · Feb 9, 2006

I note that you speak as if there IS a "god" to get angry with people who believe in "him/her".

Why should one fear?

I was just showing benefits, sort of in a sarcastic manner. I don't believe there's a reason to fear god, I was just trying to make atheism more appealing.

MdmSzdWhtGuy · Feb 9, 2006

Frankly I can think of a lot more downsides to athiesm than upsides, considering that I come from a family of true beleivers, I work in an office mostly filled with true beleivers, and I currently live in Texas, a state chock full of true beleivers.

The biggest hypocrite Christians in the world, who show up Sunday mornings hung over from the night before, who break all sorts of comandments, but pay lip service to being a Christian is held in much higher regard than is myself, a person who as become an AA in spite of 1/3 of his life spent in an effort to find any evidence of a God worth following, and who is, above all, honest and forthright.

My life would be better if I was a believer. But I am not.

If everybody was AA, or even if AA wasn't so looked down upon, then I might be able to come up with some good arguments of how an individual is better off as an agnostic/athiest, but in this country, in this state, I cannot say that.

When I got the most recent edition of Time magazine, and the cover indicated that the U.S. is falling farther and farther behind the rest of the world in Science, then I am reminded why we need AA's around. With Rick Perry and George Bush wanting no stem cell research and to teach ID in the classrooms, where can our youngsters, who might have the ability to become scientists, going to learn?

I can just imagine a classroom full of kids answering "God did it" to every single question the teacher posed for hour after hour, week after week. Where is your cancer research then? Who is going to come up with an AIDS Vaccine out of that group of kids?

Realizing the reality of the sitution, that this is your only go-round, and that it is everybody else's only go-round too, I would hope, would lead folks to treat one another better, knowing that there is no redemption beyond that which you give to yourself, and receive from your fellow man. I realize this is a pipe dream, and I am often accused of pessimism when I go down this road, only to realize that man, as a species doesn't appear to be equipped to be peaceful and happy, at least not for any extended period of time.

B.

Popeyesays · Feb 9, 2006

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Frankly I can think of a lot more downsides to athiesm than upsides, considering that I come from a family of true beleivers, I work in an office mostly filled with true beleivers, and I currently live in Texas, a state chock full of true beleivers.

The biggest hypocrite Christians in the world, who show up Sunday mornings hung over from the night before, who break all sorts of comandments, but pay lip service to being a Christian is held in much higher regard than is myself, a person who as become an AA in spite of 1/3 of his life spent in an effort to find any evidence of a God worth following, and who is, above all, honest and forthright.

My life would be better if I was a believer. But I am not.

If everybody was AA, or even if AA wasn't so looked down upon, then I might be able to come up with some good arguments of how an individual is better off as an agnostic/athiest, but in this country, in this state, I cannot say that.

When I got the most recent edition of Time magazine, and the cover indicated that the U.S. is falling farther and farther behind the rest of the world in Science, then I am reminded why we need AA's around. With Rick Perry and George Bush wanting no stem cell research and to teach ID in the classrooms, where can our youngsters, who might have the ability to become scientists, going to learn?

I can just imagine a classroom full of kids answering "God did it" to every single question the teacher posed for hour after hour, week after week. Where is your cancer research then? Who is going to come up with an AIDS Vaccine out of that group of kids?

Realizing the reality of the sitution, that this is your only go-round, and that it is everybody else's only go-round too, I would hope, would lead folks to treat one another better, knowing that there is no redemption beyond that which you give to yourself, and receive from your fellow man. I realize this is a pipe dream, and I am often accused of pessimism when I go down this road, only to realize that man, as a species doesn't appear to be equipped to be peaceful and happy, at least not for any extended period of time.

B.

Not all religions denigrate science, you know.
"In the third Tajalli (effulgence) of the Book of Tajalliyat (Book of Effulgences) We have mentioned: "Arts, crafts and sciences uplift the world of being, and are conducive to its exaltation. Knowledge is as wings to man's life, and a ladder for his ascent. Its acquisition is incumbent upon everyone. The knowledge of such sciences, however, should be acquired as can profit the peoples of the earth, and not those which begin with words and end with words. Great indeed is the claim of scientists and craftsmen on the peoples of the world. Unto this beareth witness the Mother Book in this conspicuous station."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 26)

"God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 240)

Regards,
Scott

Buttercup · Feb 9, 2006

Halcyon said:
Well, i guess we're concentrating on the God of Abraham as usual?

The OP question is directed at Non believers. Responses can be from a person with a belief in ANY God. Or none.

Doesn't matter the religion or lack thereof. I have run across many people who believe in God with no religious doctrine attached and they find comfort from this belief.

1. If you don't believe in creation, then you most likely believe in evolution. For me, evolution shows us that in a sense, all life on earth is one family. It means instead of feeling separate from the animals and plants, instead of feeling like a special creature specifically designed by God - I respect and care about all life, I don't feel superior to any other being, even if I eat some of them.

I believe in both evolution and creation. It's hard to ignore the evolutionary evidences. As far as the creation end of things from a Godly perspective....Ah, I don't feel like getting into it here.

2. Same as point 1. Feeling a part of the universe instead of a character placed into the universe by God allows me to feel at one with existence, at peace with my surroundings. Also I recognise that we are a product of our environment, not that the environment was created for us. This means I believe strongly in conservation and environmental protection.

This is a very nice mindset. I like it. But, I think one can feel at peace with our surroundings and still have a firm faith in God. I am a huge nature lover and environmentalist. I think God expects us to take care of the earth He gave us.

3. I try to live in a compassionate and peaceful way because I respect all life and all peoples as part of my extended family. I recognise we are all one. I don't do good to earn browny points with God so that I get to go to heaven.

I admire your thoughts here as well. I do nice things because I want to. It feels good to help...especially children.

4. With no external deity looking over you and judging you, then you yourself are your own judge. There's no forgiveness from a divine source, you have to forgive yourself and seek it from the one you've harmed. If you can't forgive yourself for hurting another, that's a big incentive for being nice.

You can do all this and believe in God at the same time. I never worry about God judging me. I am free and live by my conscious as well.

5. With no God or Devil influencing people and controlling events, you see things as they truly are - chance events. This is far easier to accept and come to terms with than a supposedly loving God who never seems to act.

Funny, not sure if I'm right or wrong but I view most of what happens in my life the same way. I just don't think God is involved in every single, minute aspect. I do think chance is a factor.

Thanks for your thoughtful answers!

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