Sunstone said:
It's unfortunate that God is prepared to save only 144,000 souls. Many more than 144,000 people voted for Bush. The clear implication is that hell will be crowded with people who voted for Bush but were not among the 144,000 that God saves. As someone who is probably going to hell, I am personally alarmed that so many Republicans will be there with me. Having had to listen to Rush Limbaugh in this life, I feel deeply that it is unfair I should have to listen to him in the next life. Can anything be done about this injustice?
At least my sense of humour is constant; I tried to Fruball you for that one, but "You cannot fruball the same post twice"........
BTW............
http://www.apocalipsis.org/144000.htm (an extract only)
The 144,000 sealed (Revelation 7:1)
Art used by permission by Pat Marvenko Smith, copyright 1992.
Click here to visit her "
Revelation Illustrated" site.
7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. Rev 7:5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, 6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. Who are the 144,000?
This vision of the 144,000 and the vision of the great multitude (7:9 ff.) form an interlude between the sixth and seventh seals. Just as in the interlude between the sixth and seventh trumpets we see a description of the witnessing church so here we get a description of the church. There is no such interlude between the sixth and seventh bowl. Before the seven trumpets are to be sounded which serve as warnings to mankind, the church is first sealed to protect them from these disasters that come upon mankind. The number 144,000 is a symbolic number (cf. 21:12 ff.) and the description of the 144,000 sealed, symbolically describes the NT + OT church not just the OT tribes of Israel. Neither are they a select group of Jewish missionaries who arise in the last days. It should be noted that the list of the twelve tribes is not just a
list it is a
census. The reasons why the 144,000 represent the church are summarised below:
i. They are described as the servants of our God in verse 3, a term that refers to the church, and is used more than 11 times in Revelation, see 1:1, 1:6, 5:10, 6:11, 7:15, 19:2, 19:5, 19:10, 22:3, 22:6, 22:9. The book of Revelation was written to God's servants (1:1, 22:6).
ii. The NT Church is called the Israel of God (Gal 6:16). Both Jews and Gentiles are members of Christ's body and share the same promises, the church is Abraham's offspring (Eph 3:6, Gal 3:6-9, 28-29). See also James 1:1.
iii. Judah is the firstborn instead of Reuben. Jesus is the firstborn of the dead (Col 1:15 ) and he is descended from Judah (Heb 7:14). Note while Jesus was on earth he went through the initiation rights of both Jews (circumcision) and Christians (baptism). Judah offered himself as a substitute for his brother Benjamin (Gen 44:33) and is therefore a type of Christ.
iv. Levi the tribe of priests is included in the census, they are normally excluded from a census (Num 1:47), the saints are described as priests in 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.
v. Joseph, who is a type of Christ is included (instead of Ephraim), there is nothing wrong spoken about him, see verse eight for more detail.
vi. Dan and Ephraim who went off into idolatry are excluded, they are replaced by Levi and Joseph, there are no idolaters in the church, 21:8, 22:15. Irenaeus thinks that the antichrist will come from Dan and quotes, Jer 8:16.
vii. Those in an OT census are ransomed people (cf. Exo 30:12).
viii. The number 144 (12*12 i.e. OT * NT) and 12,000 occur again in the description of the New Jerusalem, Rev 21:12-17, which is clearly both OT (twelve tribes and 12 gates) and NT church (twelve apostles and 12 foundations). This could also be a description of the Jewish and Gentile church, but the emphasis is that it is the complete church.
ix. The 144,000 are found again in 14:1 where they have the name of the Lamb and the Father written on their foreheads. In the description of the new Jerusalem, 22:3-4, we also find God's servants with his name on their foreheads. The 144,000 in 14:1-5 are described as followers of the Lamb, they sing a new song, they are pure and blameless, they are redeemed from the earth.
x. Milligan points out that if the seal is the antithesis of the mark of the beast which is on all his followers then the seal of God will be on all His followers and not just a part.
xi. God is sealing all of his people against the coming trumpets not just a part just as all God's people escaped the plagues on the Egyptians. All those who put the blood of the lamb on the door posts and lintels escaped from the destroying angel.
