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Isaiah 24:21 ???

Ares

from the Blood tribe
ESV version. On that day the Lord will punish the hosts of heaven in heaven, and the kings of the earth on the earth.
JPS version starts with In that day.

Hosts of heaven are angels correct? Why would the Lord punish them?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
ESV version. On that day the Lord will punish the hosts of heaven in heaven, and the kings of the earth on the earth.
JPS version starts with In that day.

Hosts of heaven are angels correct? Why would the Lord punish them?

Some of them became rebellious....they will be held accountable for their actions just like we are.

Jude 6*And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day
 

Ares

from the Blood tribe
But it says host of heaven in heaven, not fallen angels or fallen hosts, guess im being 2 literal.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
But it says host of heaven in heaven, not fallen angels or fallen hosts, guess im being 2 literal.

yeah I see where it could seem confusing, however, the bible uses 'heaven' as a place where spirits reside too

So being 'in heaven' means being in the spirit realm....its no only assoicated with Gods presence.

For example, it is said of Christ that he was raised to life 'in the heavenly places'
Ephesians 1:20 '.... in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21*far above every government and authority and power and lordship

And it is also said that the evil spirits (rebellious angels) exist in the 'hevenly places'
Eph. 6:12 “We have a fight, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”

So 'heavenly places' refers to where spirits exist. They dont exist in the physical realm but in a non-physical realm called 'heavens'
 

Ares

from the Blood tribe
I appreciate u and ur views. question: Do u view evil spirits as rebellious towards God?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I appreciate u and ur views. question: Do u view evil spirits as rebellious towards God?

yes absolutely.


I base that on the bibles explanation of who these evil spirits are, what they get up to and what God plans to do with them.
 

Ares

from the Blood tribe
1 Samuel 16:14 Now the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an evil spirit from the Lord began to terrify him. Also satan had to get permission from God to tempt Job, satan means adversary and accuser but I dont see satan as being the enemy of God but mans. How can anything oppose the all powerful? isn't that giving satan more credit and power than he has? Which brings me to something else, if demons are hell bent on destruction, wouldnt it be more tactical to possess the man with his finger on a nuke? Since they have free will to act against the Creator?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
1 Samuel 16:14 Now the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an evil spirit from the Lord began to terrify him. Also satan had to get permission from God to tempt Job, satan means adversary and accuser but I dont see satan as being the enemy of God but mans. How can anything oppose the all powerful? isn't that giving satan more credit and power than he has? Which brings me to something else, if demons are hell bent on destruction, wouldnt it be more tactical to possess the man with his finger on a nuke? Since they have free will to act against the Creator?

This is an explanation from the Watchtower:

Scriptural Questions Answered:
1 Samuel 16:14—What bad spirit terrorized Saul?
The bad spirit that deprived Saul of his peace of mind was the bad inclination of his mind and heart—his inward urge to do wrong. When Jehovah withdrew his holy spirit, Saul lost its protection and came to be dominated by his own bad spirit. Since God permitted that spirit to replace His holy spirit, this bad spirit is termed “a bad spirit from Jehovah.”


This makes sense to me because if God is truly loving, and all his creations are good, then there could be no deliberate creation of anything bad. So I dont believe that God would deliberately create a bad angel and send him out to cause havoc.

The love of God would not permit him to act that way. So this explanation really sits well with me. It is in harmony with what we know and believe God to be and how he is described by the bible writers.
 

Ares

from the Blood tribe
So u dont believe in possession but man actually " creates " his own evil urge and it manifests in to an evil spirit? Why did satan need permission to tempt job? Or was God and satan a creation and manifestation of job? Did jesus cast out legion into the herd of pigs? Please, dont feel I am against u, tryin to understand and make sense to me, I agree with not celebrating christmas, etc.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
This is an explanation from the Watchtower:

Scriptural Questions Answered:
1 Samuel 16:14—What bad spirit terrorized Saul?
The bad spirit that deprived Saul of his peace of mind was the bad inclination of his mind and heart—his inward urge to do wrong. When Jehovah withdrew his holy spirit, Saul lost its protection and came to be dominated by his own bad spirit. Since God permitted that spirit to replace His holy spirit, this bad spirit is termed “a bad spirit from Jehovah.”


This makes sense to me because if God is truly loving, and all his creations are good, then there could be no deliberate creation of anything bad. So I dont believe that God would deliberately create a bad angel and send him out to cause havoc.

The love of God would not permit him to act that way. So this explanation really sits well with me. It is in harmony with what we know and believe God to be and how he is described by the bible writers.


It was the angel of death that slaughtered the Egyptian New Borns, and the angel of Death that saved Gideon's men.

Death is supposed to be the ultimate enemy, yet we see that Death is in Gods control.

God sends rain on the wicked and the good.

God who is everything took away the sons and daughters of Job, and then gave him back more.

It was God who would harden the heart of Pharoah more times than pharoah hardened his own.

Why?

Because God can.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
1 Samuel 16:14 Now the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an evil spirit from the Lord began to terrify him. Also satan had to get permission from God to tempt Job, satan means adversary and accuser but I dont see satan as being the enemy of God but mans. How can anything oppose the all powerful? isn't that giving satan more credit and power than he has? Which brings me to something else, if demons are hell bent on destruction, wouldnt it be more tactical to possess the man with his finger on a nuke? Since they have free will to act against the Creator?

If they had complete free will, then why didn't satan disobey God's command and kill job?
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
This is an explanation from the Watchtower:

Scriptural Questions Answered:
1 Samuel 16:14—What bad spirit terrorized Saul?
The bad spirit that deprived Saul of his peace of mind was the bad inclination of his mind and heart—his inward urge to do wrong. When Jehovah withdrew his holy spirit, Saul lost its protection and came to be dominated by his own bad spirit. Since God permitted that spirit to replace His holy spirit, this bad spirit is termed “a bad spirit from Jehovah.”


This makes sense to me because if God is truly loving, and all his creations are good, then there could be no deliberate creation of anything bad. So I dont believe that God would deliberately create a bad angel and send him out to cause havoc.

The love of God would not permit him to act that way. So this explanation really sits well with me. It is in harmony with what we know and believe God to be and how he is described by the bible writers.

God can and does send evil spirits to fulfill His sovereign will:

1Ki 22:19-23 Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will persuade him.' 22 The LORD said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the LORD said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' 23 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you."


 

Ares

from the Blood tribe
I agree with u, it was in the light of trying to understand where peg was coming from in our discussion on the 1st page. The quote thing doesnt work right or im not doing something right on my lil tablet. I was being sarcastic. That if satan has free will why dont demons possess a man with his finger on a nuke? That if satan has free will, satan can only work within the limits of what God allows. God told satan u can hurt job but not take his life. God was the 1 who pointed out job to satan.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
I agree with u, it was in the light of trying to understand where peg was coming from in our discussion on the 1st page. The quote thing doesnt work right or im not doing something right on my lil tablet. I was being sarcastic. That if satan has free will why dont demons possess a man with his finger on a nuke? That if satan has free will, satan can only work within the limits of what God allows. God told satan u can hurt job but not take his life. God was the 1 who pointed out job to satan.

It's sometimes difficult to detect saracasm in print. BTW..Isa 24 is an end-time prophetic chapter. Verse 22 is a parallel to satan and his demons being thrown in the bottomless pit (Rev 20:1-3).
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
God can and does send evil spirits to fulfill His sovereign will:

1Ki 22:19-23 Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will persuade him.' 22 The LORD said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the LORD said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' 23 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you."




If you mean that the angel is an 'evil angel', i can't agree. Yes angels can bring evil upon Gods enemies, they are used in expressing divine anger and judgement. But it doesnt mean that they are inherently evil beings which is what im arguing against.


Notice what Paul has to say:

2Thess 2:9*But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10*and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11*So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12*in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

In the example you give above, the angel exercised his power upon those false prophets so that they spoke, not truth, but what they themselves wanted to say and what Ahab wanted to hear from them. God had forewarned Ahab but he preferred the lies and paid for it with his life.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I agree with u, it was in the light of trying to understand where peg was coming from in our discussion on the 1st page. The quote thing doesnt work right or im not doing something right on my lil tablet. I was being sarcastic. That if satan has free will why dont demons possess a man with his finger on a nuke? That if satan has free will, satan can only work within the limits of what God allows. God told satan u can hurt job but not take his life. God was the 1 who pointed out job to satan.

Its because God has restricted their power. In the past we learn how the angels came to earth and took on human form, they cohabited with women and produced hybrid offspring in the days of Noah.

They had the ability to do that, but after God brought the flood which ended their reign, God apparently prevented them from taking on human form...if they still had the power to do that, then surely they would. But the fact that they dont, means that they cant'.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
So u dont believe in possession but man actually " creates " his own evil urge and it manifests in to an evil spirit? Why did satan need permission to tempt job? Or was God and satan a creation and manifestation of job? Did jesus cast out legion into the herd of pigs? Please, dont feel I am against u, tryin to understand and make sense to me, I agree with not celebrating christmas, etc.

not all instances of the word 'spirit' actually means an angel or spirit person.

If I said to you that my spirit is high, or I'm in good spirits, do you assume im talking about a spirit person, or myself and my mood?

Here are some examples of 'spirit' being used in a different sense:

Mark 8:12*So he groaned deeply with his spirit, and said: “Why does this generation seek a sign? Truly I say, No sign will be given to this generation.”

Mark 14:38*Men, keep on the watch and praying, in order that YOU do not come into temptation. The spirit, of course, is eager, but the flesh is weak


Now here is an example of a 'spirit' who is an actual person or an angel:
Job 4:15*And a spirit itself went passing over my face;
The hair of my flesh began to bristle.
16*It began to stand still,
But I did not recognize its appearance;
A form was in front of my eyes;
There was a calm, and I now heard a voice:



Obviously not all instances of 'spirit' in the bible means a spirit being. Sometimes it means our own demeanour.
 

Shermana

Heretic
ESV version. On that day the Lord will punish the hosts of heaven in heaven, and the kings of the earth on the earth.
JPS version starts with In that day.

Hosts of heaven are angels correct? Why would the Lord punish them?

Modern Rabbinicists may say that its just a symbolic way of saying "The heavens and stars will shake with the Divine fury", because "Host of Heaven" can in fact be interpreted to mean the Celestial Objects....it ALSO can mean Heavenly Beings themselves, and even more so, in some Jewish litearture, it's implied that the Stars themselves are sort of chambers for the spirits of the Celestial Beings themselves.

I believe the original interpretation is that there were in fact powerful Spiritual beings called "gods" who were given authority over the nations of the world. This is testified clearly in Deuteronomy 32:8 in the Septuagint, which has a very curious and odd difference in the Post-Masoretic version to change it from "Sons of god" to "Sons of Israel", which makes little sense IMO, and IMO, the original was clearly referring to the idea that each nation had its own god (who was of course, not nearly as powerful as THE god who chose Israel as his own portion). It would kind of make sense that these intelligent peoples wouldn't exactly invest so much into an elaborate religious scheme if they themselves didn't have some kind of physical interaction with the being they considered to be a deity. It seems that the common thought, from the text itself, was that these beings had jurisdiction over a certain amount of land, and while they did exist and were under the power of THE god (the "god of the gods"), they weren't necessarily good. In fact, they may have been pretty naughty, giving basis to some of the myths we see with the Greeks.

We also see in some Jewish literature like Enoch and Testament of Job, that these wicked "gods" (such as "Satan" in ToJ) are rebellious against The god, but still somehow are given authority over the gentiles who accept them as "Their" god. (A big difference in concept of "a god" and "One's god" must also be understood). Thus it would make sense that these "hosts of heaven" could be punished, and Isaiah may in fact be hinting at this rather than just making an odd metaphor for the power of the Divine fury in general.


That if satan has free will why dont demons possess a man with his finger on a nuke?

The concept is that they are kept on a chain. They are given power over whomever deserves to be under their power. Certain world shattering events like nuclear devastation probably aren't on THE god's agenda until he appoints it.

The NT, which probably was written with 2nd Temple Cosmological/Theological concepts in mind, clearly indicates that demonic possession was possible, if not a common occurence, and this is hardly limited to the NT itself within Jewish culture. However, only those who brought such posession on themselves and were allowed to have such by THE god would have it done so.
 
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