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God's take on nudity

Muffled

Jesus in me
Actually it says "Nachash" - which in the Hebrew is also a Sorcerer.

*

I believe that would fit in with the concept of Hel who was a shapeshifter sometimes in the form of a man sometimes in the form of a woman and often in the form of animals so a reptilian of some sort wouldn't be strange.

However I believe there is no evidence that Hel had sex with Eve.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
First, it isn't God who said anything about nudity, but the person who wrote Genesis. Second, nakedness MIGHT be a symbol (I believe the story symbolic)of shame that they disobeyed God.

I believe nakedness is not a symbol but a reality.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Source? This Gnostic has not heard such before.

To address the OP your interpretation is off as you are reading something into the story that is not really there. Consciousness of nudity was not one of the punishments the god imposed (the punishments come later in the story). Rather it was simply a result of their eyes being opened. In other words they went from childlike innocence to self-consciousness of their nakedness.

I believe they also went from no knowledge of sex to knowledge of sex. I have to wonder about shame as to whether that is part of the knowledge of sex.
 

The Etheric Adjustment

Οβσερϝερ
Genesis 2:25 (NLT)
25 Now the man and his wife were both naked, but they felt no shame


Shamefulness in this case did not exist before man created it. Since the creation seemed perfect before Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (If we dissmiss the fall of Lucifer) YHVH was probably not responsible for making Adam and Eve feel ashamed. But he was certainly responsible for giving man the power to create (since man was made in the image of God)

Adding a "yet" to the phrase would simplify everything." Now the man and his wife were both naked, but they felt no shame yet"
 

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
India is a country where in vedic times they practiced both tantra and mantra, Tantras actually practiced different arts of sex as evident from stone sculpture accross temples of india. The kings belonging to orissa in vedic times practiced this art. Actually by following tantric sex under the guidance of guru , there was a belief that one could raise their kundalini a mystic power
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
That's probably true. But why did they start wearing clothes in situations where protecting oneself from the elements wasn't necessary?

I guess it became habit. Maybe people felt vulnerable not wearing clothes. I have no answers for that.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Fixing autism requires medical research. Fixing issues with nudity requires social work.

To be totally honest, the subject doesn't really interest me all that much. There are more important social issues to work on, like racism, sexism, etc. ;)
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Pegg said:
great topic for discussion.

I dont see the same conclusion that you are seeing from the bible account though.

If you noticed in the account, Adam and Eve were the ones who decided they were naked and it was themselves who felt shame at it. After they had sewn fig leaves to cover themselves, God came along and asked them why they had done that.

their own reply was that they were naked and needed to be hid.

So the question is why did disobedience to God lead them to conclude that they were naked?
Yes! Why indeed?

Why do you say God made them feel ashamed? Only they could have done that to themselves because shame is something that come from within us.
To suddenly discover one is naked implies a knowledge of not being naked. And, I have to believe that having just been plopped down on earth they had no concept of being clothed, therefore nakedness would be a meaningless notion. Now shame, which is really the crux of the issue here, is an emotional response over which one has very little control, so one has to ask how such an emotion developed where it didn't exist before. Did A&E set out to purposely feel shame? Extremely doubtful. So what other sources could there be? I only see god. He had first created them with no sense of shame for their nakedness, and then, only after the galling apple incident, decided that as partial punishment they would be ashamed of their nakedness. Think they would have decided upon such a thing? Hardly.

Obviously God created them that way and never before that time did they feel the need to cover up. If God thought their nakedness was bad, why not cover them up earlier. And ask yourself why ALL the animal creation are naked and continue to be naked.
Because they were never invested with a sense of shame. It ain't in their nature. However, humans were invested with a sense of shame in the garden--it became part of their nature. Do you purposely go to the trouble of taking on emotional responses that make you feel bad? Of course not. Such response have to either be in one's nature or taught. So in as much as god created our nature, and was the principle teacher at the time, he stands as the culprit. God made sure we feel shame for our nakedness.

Who made a big deal out of the nudity?
As I pointed out before, because Christians regard the Bible as being gods word, it would be god making the big deal of nudity.

Why do you think it was God who did that???
↑ SEE ABOVE ↑
The Etheric Adjustment said:
Shamefulness in this case did not exist before man created it.
See the above.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
I believe that would fit in with the concept of Hel who was a shapeshifter sometimes in the form of a man sometimes in the form of a woman and often in the form of animals so a reptilian of some sort wouldn't be strange.

However I believe there is no evidence that Hel had sex with Eve.


Well to be honest there is no evidence that anything related in Genesis happened.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Originally Posted by nazz
Regarding the Serpent Seed doctrine let's be totally clear this is a modern racist perversion of Christianity even if there is a casual connection to ancient Gnostic writings. Cain himself is not always seen as a negative figure in Gnostic thought as there was an entire Gnostic group called the Cainites.

Just how do you figure this? This idea of sex with the Serpent goes back into the Jewish writings - for instance -

Talmud (Yebamoth 103b) ‘ rabbi Johanan stated. When the serpent copulated with Eve, he infused her with lust.'


Well, first off, Orthodox Jews will tell you that it takes years of study (in the original languages) to properly understand the Talmud (although to be honest I often think this is an excuse).

Secondly, just because (some) Jews may have advanced the idea that Eve had sex with the Serpent (I've never actually heard this from any Jew--might be interesting to run this up the flagpole on the Jewish forum) does NOT mean that Jews ever endorsed the racist ideology of the Christian Identity movement (which itself is antisemitic). As an important side note Jews have never equated the Serpent with the devil as in Christianity.

Thirdly, just one vague reference in one Gnostic writing is not a lot to base an idea and then apply across the board to Gnosticism in general.


- and Cain and his offspring have always played the evil "other" role in the Tanakh.


References for that idea?

However, in later Gnostic writings the Serpent events are seen as necessary for enlightenment and life. Every good myth has a Trickster. :D
Later writings? The Gospel of Philip is from the third century. It probably represents a survival of Jewish gnosticism and should not be equated with Gnosticism as a whole. And I know of no Gnostic writings that ever regard the Serpent as a trickster. It is the creator god in Genesis who is the trickster.

I did do a quick scan of the Gospel of Philip and found this:

First, adultery came into being, afterward murder. And he was begotten in adultery, for he was the child of the Serpent. So he became a murderer, just like his father, and he killed his brother. Indeed, every act of sexual intercourse which has occurred between those unlike one another is adultery.

Is it this to which you refer or is there more?

Much, much, more - And far older.

Just Google it and start reading the texts.
Actually I did and came up with nada <shrug>
It's important to note that the Serpent was viewed by many Gnostics as an agent of the Holy Spirit, so again a positive figure in Gnosticism. Some texts, such as the Hypostasis of the Archons state that Eve actually transformed herself into a tree to escape being raped by the Archons and later into the Serpent. Some Gnostics texts state it was the Demiurge who raped Eve.

Yes, I have read this type of version in later texts.
Again these are not "later" texts but go back to the second century CE or possibly even earlier.


This sex with the Serpent idea probably came about very early. You have to remember that the word for Serpent - is also the word for a Sorcerer (the trickster in the story :D.)


Gen 3:13 … And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Can also be translated –

And the woman said, The Sorcerer seduced me, and I did burn/partake.
I don't see evidence of this in Hebrew etymology. Nakhash is derived from a root meaning diviner but that is not a sorcerer.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
That's probably true. But why did they start wearing clothes in situations where protecting oneself from the elements wasn't necessary?


God created humans to know only good---once they rebelled and had the knowledge of bad as well--lust entered the scene. they needed to wear clothes. they didn't know the difference before knowing bad.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Yes! Why indeed?

To suddenly discover one is naked implies a knowledge of not being naked. And, I have to believe that having just been plopped down on earth they had no concept of being clothed, therefore nakedness would be a meaningless notion. Now shame, which is really the crux of the issue here, is an emotional response over which one has very little control, so one has to ask how such an emotion developed where it didn't exist before. Did A&E set out to purposely feel shame? Extremely doubtful. So what other sources could there be? I only see god. He had first created them with no sense of shame for their nakedness, and then, only after the galling apple incident, decided that as partial punishment they would be ashamed of their nakedness. Think they would have decided upon such a thing? Hardly.


Adam was created some time before Eve....and they lived for an unspecified time before all this happened. So its not like they weren't alive long enough to know they were naked.

Another thing you need to realise is that the hebrew expression for 'nakedness' is used in the bible with regard to sexual matters. So it wasnt a lack of clothing that caused them to feel shame.



Because they were never invested with a sense of shame. It ain't in their nature. However, humans were invested with a sense of shame in the garden--it became part of their nature. Do you purposely go to the trouble of taking on emotional responses that make you feel bad? Of course not. Such response have to either be in one's nature or taught. So in as much as god created our nature, and was the principle teacher at the time, he stands as the culprit. God made sure we feel shame for our nakedness.

when anyone does something wrong, against what is right and proper, they feel a sense of shame and guilt. If you steal something, you will feel a sense of shame. That feeling of guilt/shame comes from your own conscience. The conscience is an inbuilt mechanism that makes judgements on our behalf.

We all have one. Adam and Eve were being accused by their own consciences. So the interesting thing is why they suddenly began to feel guilty over seeing their 'nakedness'.

The point is, they began to see their of their nakedness in a different way, and it was the wrong way to view it, and that is why they felt shame at themselves. Their conscience condemned them for thinking about their nakedness in such a way....and its the same kind of thinking that continues today with regard to sexuality.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
God created humans to know only good
If A&E hadn't messed up, and bad stuff happened around them what would they have called it? Or wouldn't they recognize it?

---once they rebelled and had the knowledge of bad as well--lust entered the scene.
So lust is bad. Hmmm
lust

/l&#601;st/
Noun
Very strong sexual desire.
Doesn't sound so bad to me. If some people didn't have a strong sexual desire I doubt they would have followed god's request, "And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply."

Of course, it's also interesting that god who " poured out his love into our hearts" * was so cruel as to saddle 7 billion people with the mistake of two newborns.

*Romans 5:5
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I think that before sin and the fall Adam and Eve looked upon each other and their nakedness in innocence and purity. Choosing to disobey God caused new sinful desires to arise within them. Desires of lust to look at another person as an object and/or use another for self seeking satisfaction This lust has has plagued the world ever since.

For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. 1 John 2:16=17
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Adam was created some time before Eve
Some time, like a couple of months? A couple of weeks? A couple of days? Or. . . ? In any case what's your point?

and they lived for an unspecified time before all this happened. So its not like they weren't alive long enough to know they were naked.
This is like saying "it's not like they weren't alive long enough to know their hair was brown." . Lacking the concept of being clothed, being naked was meaningless. There was no reason for the idea to pop into mind.

Another thing you need to realise is that the hebrew expression for 'nakedness' is used in the bible with regard to sexual matters. So it wasnt a lack of clothing that caused them to feel shame.
Ah, we're taking a wholly different tack. " Naked' no longer means "without clothes" but "sexual matters," whatever that is. Kind of makes all your previous arguments quite strange, don't you think. We can now read Gen. 2:25 as
"Now the man and his wife were both with sexual matters, but they felt no shame."
Adam and Eve were being accused by their own consciences. So the interesting thing is why they suddenly began to feel guilty over seeing their 'nakedness'.
So they felt guilty over seeing their sexual matters? Care to clarify?

The point is, they began to see their of their nakedness in a different way, and it was the wrong way to view it, and that is why they felt shame at themselves.
Which, if we're back to equating "nakedness" nudity instead of "sexual matters," brings us back to my points as to where equating shame with nudity came from. Care to address it as I Iaid it out in my previous post?


Their conscience condemned them for thinking about their nakedness in such a way....and its the same kind of thinking that continues today with regard to sexuality.
Yup, and why did this become the case only after the apple incident? The only one who was ****** off about it was god, so it seems reasonable that he's the culprit.
 
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Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Really!? Hmmmm . . . . never heard that one before.

I, for one, never doubted that I and all other humans were animals.
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In any case, in what way does nudity remind you that we are animals?

Well, that and thousands of other things. :shrug:


But we always have been animals; A&E certainly weren't vegetables. So why would anyone be ashamed of our animal nature?

The entire theology which we are discussing seperates the world according to divinity, at which we are somewhere between animals and angels. Nudity shows us in all our hairy, reproductive, mammalian glory. Sexuality becomes hidden, and we equate it with animals like hares, bulls, and beasts-with-two-backs.

I'm not sure why some cultures doubt our animal nature. It could be that curious trait of ours to existentially analyze ourselves according to uncomfortable things like morality or death, or maybe the observation that we require clothes and tools to survive whereas animals simply work well with what they have. There maybe many things that separate us from the rest of the world, but nothing says exposure like standing around naked.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
The entire theology which we are discussing seperates the world according to divinity, at which we are somewhere between animals and angels.
I must have missed the announcement. Care to direct me to it?

Nudity shows us in all our hairy, reproductive, mammalian glory. Sexuality becomes hidden, and we equate it with animals like hares, bulls, and beasts-with-two-backs.
Ah yes, the ubiquitous "we." Ever hear of the Band Wagon Argument? It's fallacious.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
If A&E hadn't messed up, and bad stuff happened around them what would they have called it? Or wouldn't they recognize it?

So lust is bad. Hmmm
lust

/l&#601;st/
Noun
Very strong sexual desire.
Doesn't sound so bad to me. If some people didn't have a strong sexual desire I doubt they would have followed god's request, "And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply."

Of course, it's also interesting that god who " poured out his love into our hearts" * was so cruel as to saddle 7 billion people with the mistake of two newborns.

*Romans 5:5


Issues were raised against God in the garden of Eden events, in front of all creation( angels). The issues are being settled once and for all time. Its almost done.

Sexual desire isn't bad-- but if everyone was running around naked it would be difficult to just be with one if we know bad. God says sex out of marriage( fornication) is wicked. God knows exactly what he is doing.
 
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