sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Good examples. Thanks.
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How can Christians say Jesus (PBUH) is GOD?
- Thread starter Dani
- Start date
It is possible to consider Jesus "divine" without considering Him part of a "trinity".
a)Did Valentinus use the word "trinity".
b)Even if he did, did he have it handed to him by the disciples?
c) What is this Luke reference you refer to anyway?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
How is that possible in a world were God is One?
a) Valentinus wasn't a Trinitarian; he was a Gnostic.
b) Valentinus was a heretic.
c) Most notably the birth-narrative; it's almost an exact rip-off of Augustus' birth-story.
1.
This is how google defines divine;
Adjective
Of, from, or like God or a god.
Noun
A cleric or theologian.
Verb
Discover (something) by guesswork or intuition: "his brother usually divined his ulterior motives".
Although you can see that the very definition of the word divine allows for more possibilities than just literally being God, the Gospel does portray Jesus as more than just an ordinary mortal, after all He is the mediator between God and man.
So basically I would explain the divine nature of Jesus using the following comparison;
Consider a person in a dark house on a day where the sun is out. Through the window this person looks into a mirror angled towards the sun. In this mirror he sees the image of the sun, and in this mirror the physical attributes of the sun (light and heat) are reflected.
Now the person is like you or I, the perfect mirror is like the perfect soul of Jesus. The spiritual attributes of God (love mercy etc) are manifested through Jesus like the reflection of the attributes of the sun in a mirror, whilst the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun which reach us from God through Jesus.
In the same way the physical sun does not descend from it's exalted position in the heavens to dwell in the mirror, so also God does not literally descend to dwell in Jesus.
c) Assuming hypothetically for the sake of the discussion that the virgin birth is a direct copy of the Augustus story, it does not necessesitate that Jesus was literally God, for example it is just a miracle, and many miracles were attributed to the other Prophets, but they weren't seen as God in any trinitarian sense.
Also if it was copied, we don't know the aim of why, for example it could have been copied to give Jesus wider appeal amongst the Romans. The Qur'an has the same virgin birth story as the Gospel and yet I'm sure we are agreed that the Qur'an doesn't claim Jesus is literally God, so you can see that it doesn't follow of logical necessity of it being a copied story that Jesus was literally God.
This is how google defines divine;
Adjective
Of, from, or like God or a god.
Noun
A cleric or theologian.
Verb
Discover (something) by guesswork or intuition: "his brother usually divined his ulterior motives".
Although you can see that the very definition of the word divine allows for more possibilities than just literally being God, the Gospel does portray Jesus as more than just an ordinary mortal, after all He is the mediator between God and man.
So basically I would explain the divine nature of Jesus using the following comparison;
Consider a person in a dark house on a day where the sun is out. Through the window this person looks into a mirror angled towards the sun. In this mirror he sees the image of the sun, and in this mirror the physical attributes of the sun (light and heat) are reflected.
Now the person is like you or I, the perfect mirror is like the perfect soul of Jesus. The spiritual attributes of God (love mercy etc) are manifested through Jesus like the reflection of the attributes of the sun in a mirror, whilst the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun which reach us from God through Jesus.
In the same way the physical sun does not descend from it's exalted position in the heavens to dwell in the mirror, so also God does not literally descend to dwell in Jesus.
c) Assuming hypothetically for the sake of the discussion that the virgin birth is a direct copy of the Augustus story, it does not necessesitate that Jesus was literally God, for example it is just a miracle, and many miracles were attributed to the other Prophets, but they weren't seen as God in any trinitarian sense.
Also if it was copied, we don't know the aim of why, for example it could have been copied to give Jesus wider appeal amongst the Romans. The Qur'an has the same virgin birth story as the Gospel and yet I'm sure we are agreed that the Qur'an doesn't claim Jesus is literally God, so you can see that it doesn't follow of logical necessity of it being a copied story that Jesus was literally God.
What evidence do you have that there was a man named Jesus who said these things?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You're parsing out the term "divine," and you really needn't overanalyze it. The Christian position has always been that Jesus was, in some fashion, divine. In 325, the bishops all got together and decided that that fashion was that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God. The Christian position theologically is that God approaches us and becomes one of us in order to reconcile us, because we are incapable of approaching God. That's the Christian position, and it's not going to change because it, somehow, "doesn't make sense" to you.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
gzusfrk said:
Yep! Plus in the Bible he says he didn't come to change the law. He would have been a believer of ONE God - but within 300 years of his death the doctrine of the trinity is firmly entrenched in Christianity.
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The Trinity affirms nothing but "ONE God."
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
The Jews whose religion it was - don't agree with you.
The awaited Messiah was a special person sent from God - not God.
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Well...
I guess many of them were mistaken, as Matthew so aptly tells us. The ones who followed Jesus ultimately came to an understanding that he was God.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Actually, it affirms the way in which "three persons" are "one God."
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No. It affirms the way in which the one God is made manifest to us. There's a difference in the way the theology is formulated.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I be;lieve God is not an angelic being but He is a messenger which is what angel means. Therefore Jesus is also a messenger speaking his message directly.
I believe Jesus is no doubt the Spirit of God in the flesh but He certainly is not a disembodied spirit.
I believe Jesus is one with the Father but the distinctions of Father and Son are conceptual so that one can speak of them as not being the same thing even though they are the same entity.
I believe Jesus prophesied. That fits the description partially. He also healed people which is another thing prophets did. however when Jesus speaks He is speaking the word of God directly and not repeating what God has said.
The body will go away some day and the body had a beginning but the Spirit of God within has no beinning or end.
Muffled
Jesus in me
It seems to me that Paul was an early Christian and had a trinitarian consept.
Muffled
Jesus in me
This is a misnomer. There are not three persons that accord with any of the definitions of person except for the ecclesiastically defined one which means, member of the Trinity. So for most people the word person is totally misleading.
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FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
Given that much of Christianity is shaped by Paul, then yes it would make sense for the Trinitarian concept (if you propose that he had such a concept), would win out.