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Was Ecclesiastes written by Jesus?

S

steve at JRM

Member
Yesterday, I read Ecclesiastes again. But as soon as I started, Jesus jumped into my mind. You see, I believe Jesus has been on earth many times before. So Son of David, King in Jerusalem would fit. Also King over Isreal, in Jerusalem. If not, then who is this Preacher? The passage is mighty wise, and all the more interesting if you read it as if it were the message of Jesus. The book of Ecclesiastes correlates with the twelve fruits discussed in Rev 22:2. Would love to hear opinions on this.
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
steve at JRM said:
Yesterday, I read Ecclesiastes again. But as soon as I started, Jesus jumped into my mind. You see, I believe Jesus has been on earth many times before.
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Once as a crawdad, three times as a tadpole, then there was that cat in Nablus, and ... :banghead3
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
steve at JRM said:
Yesterday, I read Ecclesiastes again. But as soon as I started, Jesus jumped into my mind. You see, I believe Jesus has been on earth many times before. So Son of David, King in Jerusalem would fit. Also King over Isreal, in Jerusalem. If not, then who is this Preacher? The passage is mighty wise, and all the more interesting if you read it as if it were the message of Jesus. The book of Ecclesiastes correlates with the twelve fruits discussed in Rev 22:2. Would love to hear opinions on this.
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If you can argue that Ecclesiastes was written by Jesus, there is nothing to keep you from arguing that it was written by Donald Duck.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
steve at JRM said:
Then who was it written by?
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I don't think that we know. It claims to be written by a teacher of wisdom, possibly King Solomon.

EDIT: Thou shalt not forsake Saint Wikipedia

"In the two opening chapters the author describes himself as the son of David, and king over Israel in Jerusalem, presenting himself as a philosopher at the center of a brilliant court. This could apply only to king Solomon, for his successors in Jerusalem were kings over Judah only. Consequently, the traditional Rabbinic and early Christian view attributed Ecclesiastes to king Solomon. This view has been abandoned by many modern scholars, who now assume that Qoheleth is a work in the pseudepigraphical tradition that borrowed weight for a new work by putting it in the mouth of a well-known sage. The modern view is that Ecclesiastes was written around 250 BC by a non-Hellenized intellectual in the milieu of the Temple in Jerusalem. The latest possible date for it is set by the fact that Ben Sirach (written cca 180 BC) repeatedly quotes or paraphrases it, as from a canonic rather than a contemporary writing."
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
steve at JRM said:
The message is the bible summed up in twelve chapters. I suggest reading it with an open mind.
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Reading it with an informed mind is helpful too.

If there is a connection between Ecclesiastes in the NT, the best explanation is theat the NT writers read Ecclesiastes and incorporated elements of the book into their writings. After all, the NT writers were Jews, and their misunderstanding, misquoting, and misinterpreting the Hebrew Scriptures notwithstanding, they were readers of the Hebrew Scriptures.
 
michel

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/ecclesiastes.html (The conclusion)

Apologists sometimes claim that the Solomon who wrote Ecclesiastes had lost the wisdom and understanding God has given him:


Here is the argument, and the rebuttal:



"As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord ; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done." (1 Kings 11:4-6)

The apologist concludes from this that Solomon...lost some of the wisdom he once possessed. However, the apologists are taking as evidence that Solomon lost his wisdom the fact that his heart turned away from the Lord to Ashtoreth and Molech, but we’re not talking about Solomon’s judgment after he lost his wisdom and understanding and turned to false gods. We are talking about the Solomon of an earlier time, a time when he wrote Ecclesiastes, a time when he still had sufficient wisdom and understanding to follow the “true” God, Yahweh.

If the apologists want to claim that the Solomon who wrote Ecclesiastes, and who apparently didn’t accept the notion of an afterlife, had already lost his God-given wisdom and understanding, and was the Solomon who had turned toward Ashtoreth and Molech, they will have to explain why there is not a single reference to any god besides the god of Genesis creation, “elohiym,” anywhere in Ecclesiastes. There are forty references to “elohiym,” and not one to false gods.

The absence in Ecclesiastes of any hint that Solomon had turned toward Ashtoreth and Molech, and the repeated reference to only the “true” god of creation, elohiym, tells us that Solomon had not yet lost the near infinite-wisdom and understanding God had given him (if you can believe 1 Kings 4:29-30).

Thus, the Solomon in Ecclesiastes is the infinitely wise and understanding Solomon who apparently rejects the afterlife. We must conclude that either that the author of 1 Kings was wrong about God giving Solomon so much understanding, or else the Ecclesiastes author was misguided, or else Solomon was right about there being no afterlife. No matter how you look at it, the Bible is in error, and if the Bible can be in error in this instance, it might be wrong in its account of the creation, and the flood, and even wrong about the resurrection.

More notes:



According to the apologist, when Solomon was writing Ecclesiastes he had turned to false gods and away from the notion of an afterlife. Prior to that time, according to the apologist, he had God-given, near-infinite wisdom and understanding, a wisdom an understanding greater than all of the wisdom in Egypt. This is an enormous amount of wisdom, so Solomon must have had sufficient understanding of God’s message to know that there was an afterlife, if you can believe the Bible.



When one abandons the idea of an afterlife and accepts the teaching that there is no afterlife, that this is a hugely important change in ones’ life. Thus, if it’s true--as the apologist claims--that Solomon had made this immensely important, life-changing decision to abandon the notion of an afterlife, why did he not acknowledge the gods--Ashtoreth and Molech--who, according to the apologist, caused him to experience this epiphany--or, should I say, theophany?



Why did he say not a word in all of his writings about the gods who led him away from the concept of the afterlife, if that’s what had happened, and why did he only refer (forty times) to the god--the god of Genesis creation--who had allegedly given him near-infinite wisdom and understanding and whose message was one of salvation and the afterlife?



Doesn’t it make sense that a man would acknowledge somewhere in his writings at least once the gods who led him to abandon the afterlife? This change in attitude is of towering importance, isn’t it? Thus, it is inconceivable that Solomon would not mention it, if it had in fact occurred.

 
S

steve at JRM

Member
The bible I'm using, 1967-68 John Hertel school and library reference edition states Ecclesiastes being written around 977 BC. All other passages written by Solomon state they are by Solomon. I think he was so wise because he had a preacher teaching him, the Son of David, or Jesus Christ, known by a different name at that time.
 
S

steve at JRM

Member
Ecclesiastes brilliantly sums up our purpose in life. Enjoy life, but live within the commandments because they are for us, to make our lives easier and more enjoyable. But don't dwell on sin, because what's done here isn't taken with us to the next life. The sinners are treated the same as the righteous. That's because Jesus died for our sins. Someday soon we will all agree, and when we do, we will see the New City come down from the heavens.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
steve at JRM said:
The bible I'm using, 1967-68 John Hertel school and library reference edition states Ecclesiastes being written around 977 BC. All other passages written by Solomon state they are by Solomon. I think he was so wise because he had a preacher teaching him, the Son of David, or Jesus Christ, known by a different name at that time.
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I suggest that you should broaden your horizons a bit. Try a commentary issued by Anchor Bible, Hermania, JBL, or Word Biblical. 977 BC is unrealistically early. I doubt you will find any agreement among scholars for that date.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
steve at JRM said:
Ecclesiastes brilliantly sums up our purpose in life. Enjoy life, but live within the commandments because they are for us, to make our lives easier and more enjoyable. But don't dwell on sin, because what's done here isn't taken with us to the next life. The sinners are treated the same as the righteous. That's because Jesus died for our sins. Someday soon we will all agree, and when we do, we will see the New City come down from the heavens.
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Not if it was written before 180 BC. It had to have had meaning before the death of Christ if we know that it existed before Christ. People didn't keep these writings around for their own health.
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
yes soloman had wisdom from Jehovah, wisdom from Jehovah is the best sort of wisdom
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
steve at JRM said:
This was a message from God, through me. Let it be a mustard seed in your mind
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Sheesh. Someone throw some water on this guy.

We've got ourselves another live one.:biglaugh:
 
michel

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
It's interesting, because I was 'introduced' to Ecclesiastes by a very good friend; his interpretation was very different from the one given by the defender's notes, for instance his interpretation of "and the grasshopper shall be a burden" was that it described a time when mankind would become so weak that the slightest worry would be as a dreadful burden........his interpretation was more that of a change in the whole of mankind.........

11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
The marvelous process of human sexual reproduction, embryonic growth and birth is still far beyond human understanding. We are "fearfully and wonderfully made" (Psalm 139:14-16).It is presumption for evolutionists to teach that the human spirit and the human body can be explained naturalistically. Only the omnipotent, omniscient Creator could produce such wonders.
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12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
The fear of heights suggests the danger of falling; fear of being "in the way" implies inability to protect oneself.
The "almond tree" represents the white hair of age; the aged one is easily irritated, even by the chirping of a grasshopper, and sexual desire fails.​
Finally death comes, and the life, like the light in a "golden bowl" hanging by a "silver cord," goes out.​
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​
 
S

steve at JRM

Member
Ye of little faith. Believe, and we can move mountains together. But try to do it on your own, and see if you prevail. Want to know the mystery of the pyramids. The slabs were moved with granite balls. When they were close to position, they carved out grooves for the balls to roll in. Did you know Mary Magdelane, was the mother of Jesus. She floated him down the Nile to escape the orders of Heron, hence the story of The Flight To Egypt. Did you know, that UFO are us, in the next level. Our bodies become smaller and we rely more on our spirit, that is how they/we fly around, squirting through the blood of space. Now, try to make that up.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
michel said:
It's interesting, because I was 'introduced' to Ecclesiastes by a very good friend; his interpretation was very different from the one given by the defender's notes, for instance his interpretation of "and the grasshopper shall be a burden" was that it described a time when mankind would become so weak that the slightest worry would be as a dreadful burden........his interpretation was more that of a change in the whole of mankind.........

11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
[/left]
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Mindlessly labeling Christian (and, I presume, Jewish) interpreters as apologists was not constructive to his argument.

EDIT: I am referring to http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/ecclesiastes.html. The writer seemed to completely ignore all readings of the text that I'm familiar with. There are many Jewish and Christian scholars that approach the text honestly. We recognize that there are different theologies in the text.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
steve at JRM said:
Ye of little faith. Believe, and we can move mountains together. But try to do it on your own, and see if you prevail. Want to know the mystery of the pyramids. The slabs were moved with granite balls. When they were close to position, they carved out grooves for the balls to roll in. Did you know Mary Magdelane, was the mother of Jesus. She floated him down the Nile to escape the orders of Heron, hence the story of The Flight To Egypt. Did you know, that UFO are us, in the next level. Our bodies become smaller and we rely more on our spirit, that is how they/we fly around, squirting through the blood of space. Now, try to make that up.
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Wow. Your warm and fuzziness is off the charts. Perhpas an alien life form wrote Ecclesiates while sunbathing after teaching humans how to build the pyramids with flavor crystals. Whatever.

Steve, what's your favorite color?

Mine is black. But I'm very fond of a blue Ranger's (Texas baseball) cap
 
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