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Did Jesus say he was God???

BornAgain

Active Member
PAGE 753-B 8-6-13
I think where he is going with this is that he's going to make a plea that Jesus once used the phrase "I am" to refer to himself, and that this somehow proves that he is God. That's usually why this example is brought up (flawed as it may be). But I don't want to put words in my mouth. The argument is easily defeated but I'm not even going to take it up until he makes some attempt to explain the anti-trinitarian scriptures I pointed out first.
You are right, that is exactly where I’m going with this.

Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 

BornAgain

Active Member
PAGE 754-A 8-6-13
If Jesus or more correctly Yeshua is God then how come He died. God cannot die like humans
You are correct, God can not and will never, never die.

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

THIS IS THE GOSPEL OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
 
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captainbryce

Active Member
PAGE 754-A 8-6-13

According to you, “sometime before the beginning, God created Jesus” and you base this conclusion on the premises or assumption on Colossians 1:15, or IOW, before Genesis 1:1 “God created Jesus” and “that time is part of the creation” or part of Genesis CHAPTER 1 AND CHAPTER 2 BUT WERE NOT WRITTEN IN GENESIS.

Therefore, Genesis 1:1 is not really the actual “BEGINNING” because, according to you, “sometime before "the beginning", God created Jesus” and TIME STARTED before “THE BEGINNING” because “Jesus was his firstborn of all creation” OR IOW AGAIN, the Lord Jesus Christ was created by God and according to you “that time is part of the creation”

ALL THESE ARE YOUR LOGICAL CONCLUSION BASE ON THE PREMISES OR ASSUMPTION ON COLOSSIANS 1:15.

IOW, COLOSSIANS 1:15 SHOULD BE PART OF THE MISSING VERSE, ABOUT THE CREATION OF THE Lord Jesus Christ, BEFORE THE “BEGINNING” IN GENESIS CHAPTER 1 AND CHAPTER 2.
The way you write is confusing and jumbled. I'm not sure what it is you are actually saying here, (whether or not you were attempting to paraphrase me, paraphrase the bible, put words in my mouth or what) because of your writing style. I'm not sure whether or not I should ask you to elaborate, or simplify. Is this a QUESTION or a STATEMENT? :confused:

If one believes in the truth of the Holy Book, then one would ignore such ridiculousness.
The Holy Books (plural) have to be read consistently, the passages interpreted in context within their own writing, and reconciled to the information contained in the other books. Only when one does that are they truly getting to "the truth". That is what I believe my interpretation does and yours does not.

R. Eliezer ben Hyrkanos is creating fictions when he says that these things existed prior to creation. Where is your proof R. Eliezer ben Hyrkanos? “To which of the holy ones will you appeal?” (Job 5:1). As R. Eliezer ben Hyrkanos should know, the Holy Book only says, “When God began to create the heaven and earth” (Genesis 1:1).
Why are you asking me about Hyrkanos? I don't know who that is, and their opinion is no more valid than anyone else's.

There is no mention of these things existing before the creation.
There doesn't have to be. You are confusing the issue here and attacking a straw man. Nobody has claimed that "things" existed BEFORE the creation. The argument is that Jesus existed before the creation (that the creation was made possible through him), and that Jesus was part of a creation that manifested itself BEFORE the creation of the universe. Jesus was God's first creation. The creation of the universe came after!

AND YOU ACCUSED ME OF,


CONTRADICTORY EXTRAPOLATIONS!
Yes, I did. Because that's exactly what trinitarian doctrine requires in order to exist. My interpretation requires no such contradictions. You are trying to create contradictions that simply aren't there. Everything I am saying is consistent with scripture! Trinity is not, and the fact that you still haven't addressed all of the passages that refute it prove that.
 

captainbryce

Active Member
PAGE 753-B 8-6-13

You are right, that is exactly where I’m going with this.

Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Unfortunately, that doesn't prove that Jesus is God. Only that he existed WITH God "in the beginning" (either as a concept or as a spirit entity, we don't know).
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
I agree that evidence is the only true measure.

I do agree though that responses indicate that people have trouble assessing the evidence objectively. If one is opposed to Jesus being God then the evidence turns out to be insufficient.

I think that equates to those who say the holocaust never happened. Since that is what they wish to believe they simply dismiss all the evidence of the holocaust as invalid.

Only difference being that there is a clear, historical record of the Holocaust. A lot more than you can say for Jesus, let alone the claims he was divine.
 

BornAgain

Active Member
PAGE 755-A 8-6-13
John 14:26
But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

1 John 2:27
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.
You rightly quoted these two verses about the Holy Spirit, but you ignored the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are ONE in these two verses.

Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Comforter here is the same as the Holy Spirit and in 14:26.

And if you compare this verse,

1 John 2:27
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

To these verses,

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You should be able to see and understand that the Holy Spirit and God are ONE in those verses, and this same Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ from John 14:16-17, 14:26 are ONE. Now, if you can not SEE from the verses you quoted and verses that I quoted “THE TRINITY” then you are really pushing the truth out even if it staring right in front you.

You perfectly quoted those verses about “THE TRINITY”, which you have been denying consciously, but here you are admitting it, “THE TRINITY”, unconsciously.

To my amazement, instead of me providing the evidence, about the UNITY of God, the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit, it was you who were actually providing those things.
 

BornAgain

Active Member
Unfortunately, that doesn't prove that Jesus is God. Only that he existed WITH God "in the beginning" (either as a concept or as a spirit entity, we don't know).

So, you agreed with these verses,

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
 

BornAgain

Active Member
PAGE 755-B 8-6-13
The way you write is confusing and jumbled. I'm not sure what it is you are actually saying here, (whether or not you were attempting to paraphrase me, paraphrase the bible, put words in my mouth or what) because of your writing style. I'm not sure whether or not I should ask you to elaborate, or simplify. Is this a QUESTION or a STATEMENT? :confused:
I was just following your statement. I rightly quoted you, didn’t I?

I was your words we are arguing here and not mine, therefore, you should be able to understand where you coming from, or from what theory you predicated your argument about.

This is your argument,

“sometime before the beginning, God created Jesus”

You base this on Colossians 1:15, but according Genesis 1:1 there was no mention of this.

I am just clarifying your argument by means of deductive reasoning, otherwise, we could just say anything we want and do not need to provide any proof at all.
 

captainbryce

Active Member
You rightly quoted these two verses about the Holy Spirit, but you ignored the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are ONE in these two verses.
I haven't "ignored" anything. The scripture DOESN'T say that they are ONE. It says that the Holy Spirit is an "advocate" of Jesus Christ, not the same person as Jesus Christ.

Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Comforter here is the same as the Holy Spirit and in 14:26.
Again, NOT WHAT IT SAYS! It says: "and he shall give you ANOTHER comforter,". Clearly this indicates that this second comforter is something different altogether, and not the same person. This is the plain reading of the text!

And if you compare this verse,

1 John 2:27
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

To these verses,

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You should be able to see and understand that the Holy Spirit and God are ONE in those verses, and this same Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ from John 14:16-17, 14:26 are ONE.
Your argument is a non-sequitur!

First of all, let's translate those scriptures into English since I don't speak Shakespeare and because there are no such things as "ghosts":

1 Corinthians 2:10-13
10 But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. 11 No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. 12 And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. 13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths.

Now, scripture clearly indicates that the Holy Spirit is merely "God's Spirit". It is a part of him in the same way that our spirit is part of us. But we do not apply anthropomorphism to our own spirit (as it if is a separate "person" than we are), so there is no reason to do that with God. When scripture speaks of his Spirit "seeking out" or "doing work", that is merely an expression. It does not denote "personhood". Secondly, the scriptures say NOTHING of God's spirit being one with Christ to any more of a degree that God's spirit is one with US. You cannot draw a conclusion based on this scripture that Jesus is the same person as God without drawing the same conclusion about ALL Christians.

Now, if you can not SEE from the verses you quoted and verses that I quoted “THE TRINITY” then you are really pushing the truth out even if it staring right in front you.
I cannot see what doesn't exist. Especially when there is scripture standing in the way of your claims! Not only is there no trinity based on the verses we are discussing, but God's word flat out rules out the possibility of a "trinity", therefore there is no trinity!

You perfectly quoted those verses about “THE TRINITY”, which you have been denying consciously, but here you are admitting it, “THE TRINITY”, unconsciously.
I didn't do anything of the sort (consciously or otherwise). What's happening is that you are applying the trinity concept to verses that indicate nothing of the kind. You are making those verses about trinity, when they really aren't and you're using circular reasoning to do it.
 

captainbryce

Active Member
So, you agreed with these verses,

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
I agree with the fact that Jesus was WITH God in the beginning. I disagree that he WAS God, and I contend that John 1 is poorly translated from Greek.

All the primarily Trinitarian-based objections to translating "and the Word was God" as "a god" amount to little more than presupposition or special pleading. Though such faulty, superficial objections have been cut and pasted frequently on the internet, they are poorly researched and often misleading. The Coptic text of John 1:1 was made prior to the adoption of the Trinity doctrine by Egyptian and other churches, and it is poor scholarship to attempt to "read back" a translation such as "the Word was God" into any exegesis of the Coptic text. Such a rendering is foreign to Coptic John 1:1, which clearly and literally says, "the Word was a god."
 

captainbryce

Active Member
I was just following your statement. I rightly quoted you, didn’t I?
I don't know if you did or not because you also used two different fonts, three different colors, and multiple run-on sentences! Perhaps if you cleaned up your presentation, I could decipher your actual meaning. :rolleyes:

I was your words we are arguing here and not mine, therefore, you should be able to understand where you coming from, or from what theory you predicated your argument about.
Case in point ^^^ "I was your words we are arguing" - ??? Perhaps that's one of the reasons I can't understand you, because your sentences are not intelligible.

This is your argument,

“sometime before the beginning, God created Jesus”

You base this on Colossians 1:15, but according Genesis 1:1 there was no mention of this.

I am just clarifying your argument by means of deductive reasoning, otherwise, we could just say anything we want and do not need to provide any proof at all.
Yes, that is my argument. My argument goes further to suggest that there doesn't have to be any mention of that in Genesis 1:1 in order for it to be true. Not everything about creation is recorded in Genesis 1 because that is only ONE of many creation accounts. Genesis 1 doesn't tell us that God created the Angels, or that one-third of them rebelled, or that Satan was cast out of heaven, or that God stretched out the heavens, or that he wrapped the earth in thick layers of clouds when he created the earth. But other creation accounts DO tell us these things! So we can infer from other scriptures (outside of Genesis) what also happened in the beginning (or in this case BEFORE the beginning) of creation.
 

BornAgain

Active Member
PAGE 756-A 8-7-13
I haven't "ignored" anything. The scripture DOESN'T say that they are ONE. It says that the Holy Spirit is an "advocate" of Jesus Christ, not the same person as Jesus Christ.

Again, NOT WHAT IT SAYS! It says: "and he shall give you ANOTHER comforter,". Clearly this indicates that this second comforter is something different altogether, and not the same person. This is the plain reading of the text!
You should check the meaning of the word “ANOTHER”. Its either “HETEROS” i.e., different or “ALLOS” i.e., the SAME.
Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another/ALLOS [SAME] Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

There is only one meaning to that, the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are One.
 

BornAgain

Active Member
Your argument is a non-sequitur!
I base my argument on the right premises and that is the reason why I get the same conclusion all the time.

This is your argument,

“sometime before the beginning, God created Jesus”

You base this on Colossians 1:15, but according Genesis 1:1 there was no mention of this.

That is the RIGHT MEANING OF NON-SEQUITUR. NO BASIS AT ALL.

Some religions, both ancient and modern, require no historical basis, for they depend upon ideas rather than events. Christianity is not one of these.

The basis of my argument against you is so deep, deeper than Judaism.

When the Lord Jesus Christ said, Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

That is how deep my religion is, even before Judaism, and not base on human ideas.
 
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captainbryce

Active Member
You should check the meaning of the word “ANOTHER”. Its either “HETEROS” i.e., different or “ALLOS” i.e., the SAME.
Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another/ALLOS [SAME] Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

There is only one meaning to that, the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are One.
Actually, I DID check it!

The word heteros means "different" and occurs only ONCE in scripture (Philippians 3:15).

Philippians 3:15
Let all who are spiritually mature agree on these things. If you disagree on some point [heteros], I believe God will make it plain to you.

Philippians 3:15 (King James Version)
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded [heteros], God shall reveal even this unto you

However, word allos means "another" or "other", NOT "same".

Mark 12:32
The teacher of religious law replied, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth by saying that there is only one God and no other [allos]

Mark 12:32 (King James Version)
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other [allos] but he:

John 5:32
But someone else [allos] is also testifying about me, and I assure you that everything he says about me is true.

John 5:32 (King James Version)
There is another [allos] that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Technically, neither of those is the word used in John 14:16, because in that passage, the word "allon" is used (a variant of allos which also means "another", as in someone else). ;)

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another [allon] Advocate, who will never leave you.

Mark 14:58
“We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this Temple made with human hands, and in three days I will build another [allon], made without human hands.’”

Luke 7:20
John’s two disciples found Jesus and said to him, “John the Baptist sent us to ask, ‘Are you the Messiah we’ve been expecting, or should we keep looking for someone else [allon]?’”

So in conclusion....YOU'RE WRONG! :yes:
 

captainbryce

Active Member
I base my argument on the right premises and that is the reason why I get the same conclusion all the time.
I've demonstrated several times on this thread that your premises are NOT right! You have been making conclusions that are based on factually incorrect premises.

This is your argument,

“sometime before the beginning, God created Jesus”

You base this on Colossians 1:15, but according Genesis 1:1 there was no mention of this.
That has already been addressed. There doesn't have to be a mention of everything that happened in the creation process in Genesis 1:1. You assuming that there does and then choosing to draw a conclusion based on that premise is a non-squitur.

Some religions, both ancient and modern, require no historical basis, for they depend upon ideas rather than events. Christianity is not one of these.
Irrelevant! The historical basis for "creation" is recorded in many different ways, through different creation accounts throughout the bible. One verse from one book of the bible does not describe the entirety of the creation process.

The basis of my argument against you is so deep, deeper than Judaism.
But the basis for you argument against me is also flawed, being that it is based on a false premise.
 

Monotheist 101

Well-Known Member
The problem I have with Jesus or any other human being regarded as God is as follows..

That would imply that the Jews are the supreme race, as God was one of them. I have noticed how black churches have a black christ and white ones have a white christ.. IMO transforming God into man promotes racism or racial inequality..
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
The problem I have with Jesus or any other human being regarded as God is as follows..

That would imply that the Jews are the supreme race, as God was one of them. I have noticed how black churches have a black christ and white ones have a white christ.. IMO transforming God into man promotes racism or racial inequality..
Being a member of a race does not make the race superior. Jesus was not conceived by the natural Jewish conception so I don't even think the premise is correct. God could have become an Eskimo or a Babylonian and that would have nothing to do with either being superior. However God did promise Abraham his descendants (through Isaac) would be his children and produce the messiah, but that has it's ups and downs as well. I am not a Hebrew why does this not offend me?

We all have the same Christ. You are describing pictures, that no Christian should and almost none actually worship or pray to. I do not know if Christ was exactly God or not (He certainly was no mere teacher or man), nor do I need to, but what race he was born into has no affect on it.
 

captainbryce

Active Member
The problem I have with Jesus or any other human being regarded as God is as follows..

That would imply that the Jews are the supreme race, as God was one of them.
No it wouldn't. Not unless the OT specifically said that they were a superior race. Clearly, the bible teaches that the Lord does not discriminate between Jew and Gentile. There is no such thing as "race" as far as God is concerned. It is purely a social construct. However, there were different tribes and nations. Jews WERE the chosen people at one point because they were the ones who actually accepted God and obeyed his commandments (for a while), while other "races" (really nations) rejected God in favor of false religion. In any case, your assumption also fails for the fact that it was the Jews who ultimately conspired to have Christ killed! A race that executes their own messiah? Just how "superior" could they possibly be?

I have noticed how black churches have a black christ and white ones have a white christ.. IMO transforming God into man promotes racism or racial inequality..
First of all, not all Christians identify Christ as the living God or conform to the traditional doctrine of trinity, although we all accept that he is the Son of God. Secondly, the reason why black churches often depict a black Jesus is in response to the vast majority of Christian churches (for centuries) depicting Jesus, not as a middle eastern Jew, but as a pale skinned, blonde haired, blue eyed, Caucasian. Now, that's fine if everyone else in your church is looks like that and you want the to see Jesus as "one of them", but in addition to being misleading, such depictions are also exclusive towards other racist. To create "white Jesus" in the first place was a racist act. But many people who took it for granted never considered that it might be racist, and such imagery was accepted for years as benign. Even today, people don't really consider such depictions as a big deal. And this is why black people have adopted a mentality of depicting Jesus as someone who they can identify with. I'm sure there are also some Hispanic and Asian Jesus' out there too. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what race Jesus is depicted as. Because most Christians recognize that even though we know Jesus was a Jew, nobody knows exactly what Jesus looked like, nor does it matter. Unlike how Islam treats Mohammad, we have no reservations about depicting Jesus in anyway, so long as it is a positive depiction. Race is irrelevant!
 

Shermana

Heretic
Ahem...Canaanite woman was called a dog.

I've seen some attempts to say Jesus didn't really mean it or he was being facetecious, or testing her faith because he gave her request in the end but....he was kinda saying Canaanites are dogs. He only granted the request in the end after she admitted she was a dog.
 
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