What does it mean "I never knew you"?

savagewind · Aug 6, 2013

Here is what I know about "knowing" God and of course God "knowing" you. 1 John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
If God does not live in you, you cannot know God. If you are not living in God, God cannot know you. So "I never knew you" has nothing to do with "practicing sin". It has everything to do with not drawing close to God to accept God IN you. God is The Living God. YHVH is not a lost language. And neither is God's Son. My point being is that it is most certainly not true "everything to know about Christ is what is in the Bible" or more precisely what has been written about him.

John 16:3
They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

What such things?

They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.

Perhaps even out of the Kingdom Hall, or maybe out of the present day popular intellectual staus quo.

I am out.

savagewind · Aug 6, 2013

I want to make my point that some really do believe only some people can know Christ. Supposedly Christ is present. Supposedly every thing we need to know about Christ is in the Bible. But supposedly the average person cannot understand everything about Christ and so need to go to the men that do. If we cannot know the things about The Christ but the men telling us about the things of The Christ [they] do know then the obvious conclusion is they can know Christ and we can't.

Thief · Aug 6, 2013

savagewind said:
I want to make my point that some really do believe only some people can know Christ. Supposedly Christ is present. Supposedly every thing we need to know about Christ is in the Bible. But supposedly the average person cannot understand everything about Christ and so need to go to the men that do. If we cannot know the things about The Christ but the men telling us about the things of The Christ [they] do know then the obvious conclusion is they can know Christ and we can't.

If I get this right.....you would NOT lean to men of the cloth for what you believe?

savagewind · Aug 6, 2013

Thief said:
If I get this right.....you would NOT lean to men of the cloth for what you believe?

It isn't right. If God says "do not lean on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5) isn't it much worse to lean on someone else's understanding? There is a big difference between listening - something I do - and leaning - something I have learned not to do.

sincerly · Aug 6, 2013

savagewind said:
I want to make my point that some really do believe only some people can know Christ. Supposedly Christ is present. Supposedly every thing we need to know about Christ is in the Bible. But supposedly the average person cannot understand everything about Christ and so need to go to the men that do. If we cannot know the things about The Christ but the men telling us about the things of The Christ [they] do know then the obvious conclusion is they can know Christ and we can't.

Hi SW, Here are some verses for you to consider in making that "obvious conclusion.
Jer.29:11-14, "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive."

Matt.7:7-8, "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

John 7:36, "What [manner of] saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find [me]: and where I am, [thither] ye cannot come? "

GOD is in the business of making HIMSELF known to ALL who truly seek to know and have GOD to be their GOD. However, John's statement is true. Jesus was preparing HIS disciples for the soon coming day when HIS presence would not be with them and no amount of search would reveal a physical Jesus, because HE would be at the right Hand of the Father in heaven; and they would not be able to join HIM until the resurrection day.

Thief · Aug 6, 2013

savagewind said:
It isn't right. If God says "do not lean on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5) isn't it much worse to lean on someone else's understanding? There is a big difference between listening - something I do - and leaning - something I have learned not to do.

I have no cause to think the other guy has a better perspective.
So of course....rogue theologian.

And it is written ....
Trust no one ....question everything.

sincerly · Aug 6, 2013

Thief said:
If I get this right.....you would NOT lean to men of the cloth for what you believe?

Hi Thief, "If i get SW's post intent correct", Those "men of the cloth" would have their teachings to be the same as the intended messages which were given to the Prophets by the Holy Spirit ,and from the Creator GOD at Sinai.

sincerly · Aug 6, 2013

Thief said:
I have no cause to think the other guy has a better perspective.
So of course....rogue theologian.

And it is written ....
Trust no one ....question everything.

Or as 2 Peter1:10 said, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

savagewind · Aug 6, 2013

sincerly said:
Hi Thief, "If i get SW's post intent correct", Those "men of the cloth" would have their teachings to be the same as the intended messages which were given to the Prophets by the Holy Spirit ,and from the Creator GOD at Sinai.

I don't know what this means. There are people who are confident they do have the same message as Moses does.

Two different people cannot be the same.

savagewind · Aug 6, 2013

Listening leads to learning. Leaning causes a dependence. Dependence on what? Man, not God.

savagewind · Aug 6, 2013

Thief said:
I have no cause to think the other guy has a better perspective.
So of course....rogue theologian.

And it is written ....
Trust no one ....question everything.

OK. I suspected we are kindred spirits. I trust ONE not one.

savagewind · Aug 7, 2013

If indeed he said "get away from me" to where would one go?

Why if the Holy Spirit can come to anyone is it silent to most people?

What I mean is faith and confidence that Jesus is with us and Jesus with us seems the same according to you. Jesus reveals secrets to the anointed so I guess he is really present with them. Is that correct? But for us who are not anointed believing he is with us is the same as he is with us.

I mean what is the advantage of "opening the door to allow Jesus to come in to sup" with me if he is silent? Revelation 3:20

You should be honest with yourself. Is Jesus a whole new bunch of rules to follow? Can anyone follow Jesus by following something or someone else?

Do you pray to God more for the ability to resist your flesh which seeks after pleasure, or do you pray for what GOOD works God has in store for you to do? (I read that Fred Rogers prayed each day for God to reveal to him who he might do good towards according to God's will. That I call knowing God, and also trusting that God knows him and the person who is in need of God's will be done)

To think highly of yourself for any reason will be making your righteous works unclean. Sin makes for unclean. Unclean and clean do not coexist, do they?

Did you know that thinking your good deed is anything but a good deed is ruining your good deed?

Is a stumbling block in the way of knowing God and the one God sent forth thinking you do know them? If you think you do know them won't you stop looking? Why would you keep seeking something or something that you believe you have found?

Please prove "he who has endured to the end" means the end of his life.

Is getting lost the will of God? (The lost sheep was known by Jesus. Please explain how "I never knew you" means Jesus knows no sinner, in relation to the parable of the lost sheep.)

What are Jesus instructions?

How about raising a colicky baby?

The interesting thing is sometimes when the NWT adds a word for better understanding you will see these [ ]. At Matthew 28:19 it doesn't. Can you think of any reason why it doesn't?
Can you provide us just one more scripture that commands us to make people something they are not?

Is it possible your salvation depends on all the righteous acts of all the people who are responsible for our Bible?

How can a book written by men, interpreted by men and in the trust of men save anyone?
Do not put your trust in nobles nor in the sons of men with whom no slavation belongs. Psalm 146:3

Is Christ words or The Word?

Is everything we need to know in the Bible please?

If God says "do not lean on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5) isn't it much worse to lean on someone else's understanding?

These are questions in this thread that I have not seen addressed. Does anyone feel like sharing?

savagewind · Aug 7, 2013

I suppose to follow someone you should know who and where to. Can anyone follow Jesus by following something or someone else?

savagewind · Aug 7, 2013

I do not want to think I am being ignored on purpose.

JayJayDee · Aug 7, 2013

Bumping it up for an answer please.

I said it is believed by some that only 144,000 will know Christ and someone said "not so....everything we need to know is in the Bible".

Is everything we need to know in the Bible please? It would be proper, I suppose if the one who said it would answer me. Is what she said what she meant to say?

Yes, everything we NEED to know is in the Bible....but not necessarily everything we WANT to know.

Faith is required and we cannot build a relationship with the Father without it. Faith is built one spiritual 'brick' at a time and it must start with a solid foundation. It doesn't depend on others but solely upon our personal spiritual journey. Our 'ark' of salvation cannot be built by someone else. (1 Pet 3:21)

Jehovah is a reader of hearts and will not "draw" those who have only selfish intentions in connection with their worship. (John 6:44) He is looking for hearts that want to please him even at the expense of self.

If we 'draw close to God, he will draw close to us.' (Jas 4:8) If we want to be part of his spiritual nation, we must first learn obedience like Jesus did. (Heb 5:7-9) To whom should we be obedient?
Whom did God's people always have to obey? His appointed representatives.

Christians too were to be obedient to those appointed to take the lead in the congregation. (Heb 13:17) God has appointed them to 'keep watch over your soul'. If we cannot obey them, we have no place in God's arrangement.

All Jehovah has ever required of his children, both in heaven and on earth is obedience. Continued life has depended on obedience from day one.

There is specific criteria for those who would be Christ's disciples. The Bible gives us a clear identification of what "fruitage" they would be producing. It doesn't require that they be perfect, just obedient and trying their best.

True disciples would be first and foremost obeying Jesus' command to preach the good news of God's kingdom in all the inhabited earth as one united brotherhood, with one unambiguous message about the kingdom. (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20)
Ask church going people in your community to tell you what God's kingdom is? See how many can give you a concise answer. Then ask them what the good news about it is?

"Love among themselves" is also an identifier. (John 13:34, 35) That precludes racial, social, educational or economic barriers among the global brotherhood. It means that a brother of another nation could never be an enemy. (1John 4:20, 21; Acts 10:24, 25)

Jesus also told us to "love your enemies" so that rules out going to war to kill and maim fellow humans even when they are attacking us.
At Rom 12:17-21, Paul's admonition is to "return evil for evil to no one....keep conquering the evil with the good"....that leaves no room for retaliation. Vengeance belongs to Jehovah.

We cannot blend or mix true worship with false worship so Christ's true disciples would not accept pagan beliefs and festivals dressed up with Christian labels as if God is unaware of their origins. (2 Cor 6:14-18) We must be completely separated from such things if our worship is to be acceptable in God's eyes.

And finally, we must remove ourselves from "Babylon the great". If we do not know what Babylon the great is, how can we "get out of her" as God instructed? (Rev 18:4, 5) There are dire consequences for failure to obey this directive.

Now how many fit the criteria?

You be the judge.

savagewind · Aug 7, 2013

JayJayDee said:
Yes, everything we NEED to know is in the Bible....but not necessarily everything we WANT to know.

Faith is required and we cannot build a relationship with the Father without it. Faith is built one spiritual 'brick' at a time and it must start with a solid foundation. It doesn't depend on others but solely upon our personal spiritual journey. Our 'ark' of salvation cannot be built by someone else. (1 Pet 3:21)

Jehovah is a reader of hearts and will not "draw" those who have only selfish intentions in connection with their worship. (John 6:44) He is looking for hearts that want to please him even at the expense of self.

If we 'draw close to God, he will draw close to us.' (Jas 4:8) If we want to be part of his spiritual nation, we must first learn obedience like Jesus did. (Heb 5:7-9) To whom should we be obedient?
Whom did God's people always have to obey? His appointed representatives.

Christians too were to be obedient to those appointed to take the lead in the congregation. (Heb 13:17) God has appointed them to 'keep watch over your soul'. If we cannot obey them, we have no place in God's arrangement.

All Jehovah has ever required of his children, both in heaven and on earth is obedience. Continued life has depended on obedience from day one.

There is specific criteria for those who would be Christ's disciples. The Bible gives us a clear identification of what "fruitage" they would be producing. It doesn't require that they be perfect, just obedient and trying their best.

True disciples would be first and foremost obeying Jesus' command to preach the good news of God's kingdom in all the inhabited earth as one united brotherhood, with one unambiguous message about the kingdom. (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20)
Ask church going people in your community to tell you what God's kingdom is? See how many can give you a concise answer. Then ask them what the good news about it is?

"Love among themselves" is also an identifier. (John 13:34, 35) That precludes racial, social, educational or economic barriers among the global brotherhood. It means that a brother of another nation could never be an enemy. (1John 4:20, 21; Acts 10:24, 25)

Jesus also told us to "love your enemies" so that rules out going to war to kill and maim fellow humans even when they are attacking us.
At Rom 12:17-21, Paul's admonition is to "return evil for evil to no one....keep conquering the evil with the good"....that leaves no room for retaliation. Vengeance belongs to Jehovah.

We cannot blend or mix true worship with false worship so Christ's true disciples would not accept pagan beliefs and festivals dressed up with Christian labels as if God is unaware of their origins. (2 Cor 6:14-18) We must be completely separated from such things if our worship is to be acceptable in God's eyes.

And finally, we must remove ourselves from "Babylon the great". If we do not know what Babylon the great is, how can we "get out of her" as God instructed? (Rev 18:4, 5) There are dire consequences for failure to obey this directive.

Now how many fit the criteria?

You be the judge.

That is very well said but it is your criteria. Many people know your criteria does not harmonize with what they have been shown. For instance I told you the original Greek does not say "make disciples". You have Jesus saying "Make disciples". It is what you do, is it not? I am a Jehovah's Witness. I know all the things I did was for the making of disciples. But Jesus didn't say that. You say you have the truth and are in the truth but truly Jesus didn't say it and you say "so?". So? You say people will die because they won't accept the love of the truth. I do not see you accepting the love of the truth.

savagewind · Aug 7, 2013

JayJayDee said:
No, I'm afraid that it just doesn't fit your criteria. Read every scripture. You are desperate for the truth to be falsehood. It means you have to make an adjustment in your own position and that is not comfortable for you.

You leave God and the operation of the Holy Spirit completely out off the picture here. Read John 6:44. NO ONE comes to the son without an invitation from the Father. It is impossible to "make" anyone into a disciple of Christ if the Father has not first "drawn" them. What they do after they have been given an opportunity to learn and get to know Jehovah and his son, is up to them.

Offering the good news to all allows the reader of hearts to assess every individual's response to the kingdom message. That is the sole purpose of the preaching work...it is "a witness"...the basis upon which all people who hear it are judged.

You are not a Witness of Jehovah if you are promoting false teachings and bad mouthing your former brothers and sisters...you are an apostate.

We cannot make a disciple out of anyone....we are merely planters and waterers..it is God who makes the seed of truth grow.

You don't see a lot of things because there is hurt and resentment and unforgiveness in your heart. Love cannot survive in such a hostile environment.

The love of the truth will only grow in a clean heart and in the sunshine of a good conscience.

You need to heal spiritually, mentally and emotionally before God can ever accept you as one of his own.

You are in theses forums for a reason and I don't think you know why. You are lost and never seem to find what you are looking for. Maybe, just maybe it is waiting for you back home.

Look at what I have highlighted in red. I shall edit them to say what you really are saying.

I am desperate to prove the governing body false witnesses
No one comes to the Watchtower without an invitation from The Father
We can not make Jehovah's Witnesses out of anyone
The love of the organization will only grow in a clean heart
I must heal before the congregation can ever accept me as one of their own

JayJayDee · Aug 7, 2013

savagewind said:
Look at what I have highlighted in red. I shall edit them to say what you really are saying.

I am desperate to prove the governing body false witnesses
No one comes to the Watchtower without an invitation from The Father
We can not make Jehovah's Witnesses out of anyone
The love of the organization will only grow in a clean heart
I must heal before the congregation can ever accept me as one of their own

Your choice. Believe what you will. The door will be closed soon and the ark will bring safe passage to only those safely on board. It is your choice to remain outside shaking your fist.

Let us know when you find the other "Christians" that you are looking for who fulfill all of the criteria.....I don't believe they exist except in your imagination. If you have asked God and you are still lost, what is that telling you?

'Seek and you will find...knock and it shall be opened to you'....how long have you been outside looking and knocking with no answer?

savagewind · Aug 7, 2013

find the other "Christians" that you are looking for who fulfill all of the criteria

Is there any scripture that you can share that commands anyone to become something (according to your so-called criteria)

If you have asked God and you are still lost, what is that telling you?

Why do you say I am lost?

how long have you been outside looking and knocking with no answer?

With no answer? Haha. What are you talking about? I have lots of answers. But all my answers do not match your answers.

So...if you cannot "make" disciples why does your Bible say you must? Matthew 28:19

savagewind · Aug 7, 2013

Is Jesus a whole new bunch of rules to follow, so that when we have met the criteria we are saved? Can anyone follow Jesus by following something or someone else?

To work hard at meeting the criteria we get to know ourself, to be sure, but how then does meeting the criteria cause a knowing Jehovah? (John 17:3) And Jesus warned that the one wanting to save his soul (by working hard to meet the criteria) will lose it. Luke 9:24

What does it mean "I never knew you"?

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