does hinduism accept christ as a prophet/god

Poeticus · Aug 2, 2013

Namaste,

Jainarayan said:
Did this arise independently, or was there cultural exchange via trade across Africa through the Middle East to South and East Asia? Or is it true that God reveals him/herself in various ways to various peoples?

Maybe, it could be all of those options.

Jainarayan said:
I'm not offended because I see him only as a teacher, a yogi, an enlightened being, not as God or a deity. I'm curious why you consider him, in his person (not the religion) to be abrahmic. As a former Christian seeing him through the lens of non-Christianity I may see something you or other born-Hindus don't.

Well, for starters, his concept of the "Father" will go against the Shakta traditions.

Jainarayan said:
I am a man of many talents and knowledge. I've gathered much in my 56 years.

I thought you were 40-something. It went to 56 now? Also, yes attitude does alter ones perception. I am glad you know that quote. There are many variations of it in each respective corners of India.

M.V.

Poeticus · Aug 2, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
Nope bud,

If we go strictly about Vedic philosophy, it is Vishnu, and Vishnu alone, who takes birth in earthly mould, and is seen as avatar or miracle. RgVeda says of Vishnu, "he brings down the 'name' of Father", and also, "he takes steps of Freedom (read, Evolution)".

sia ram

Namaste,

Please give me the Rig Vedic verse number for the above if you can.

M.V.

Jainarayan · Aug 2, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
Nope bud,

If we go strictly about Vedic philosophy, it is Vishnu, and Vishnu alone, who takes birth in earthly mould, and is seen as avatar or miracle. RgVeda says of Vishnu, "he brings down the 'name' of Father", and also, "he takes steps of Freedom (read, Evolution)".

sia ram

Moreover, if the Bhagavad Gita is to be accepted as one of the Prasthana Traya, and a valid scripture, Sri Krishna explicitly says he takes birth again and again.

Sumit · Aug 2, 2013

Jainarayan said:
Monotheism is also an Abrahamic and Native American concept.

But vedas were revealed much before Christianity and Islam. Hence monotheism is vedic concept too.

A prophet is one who reveals God's message.

I know, and the concept of prophet is against Hinduism.

So to that end, Jesus is not technically a prophet.

This is what I said, jesus is neither god not prophet acc to hinduism.

Jainarayan · Aug 2, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3433535 said:
Well, for starters, his concept of the "Father" will go against the Shakta traditions.

Are you taking into account the time and place of his teachings and his audience and what they could (not) understand? The Middle East is and was a patriarchal society, so the concept of father made sense to people. Isn't India also a patriarchal society with the husband being the head of the home? Doesn't that fly in the face of Shaktism? Again, these are things that must be considered when drawing comparisons and differences. However, while that doesn't deify him in Hinduism, it doesn't negate his teachings on compassion and love for others, bhakti and seeking God.

I thought you were 40-something. It went to 56 now?

Nope, I haven't been 40-something in at least 6 years; just turned 56.

Kalicharan Tuvij · Aug 2, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3433522 said:
Namaste,

But, millions of Hindus would disagree. Especially those from Rajasthan, Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh, Andhra Pradesh, and Haryana.

The only ones that would agree would be ones from Kerala and Himachal Pradesh and a few from Europe and America that still have Christianity as an influencing factor in their lives.

I don't know, brah. I just don't believe in dilution by the involvement of outside concepts. Remember how the Rig Veda has a full section that disses Zarathustra? I don't want to upset the Seers of the Shruti texts by diluting their gift any further. Just my take on it. These thoughts aren't definitive. So, please bare that in mind.

M.V.

Namaste MVji

Christianity minus Church is nothing more than an offshoot and sect of Dharma. The last chapter of Bible, i.e. Revelation, is the least understood one because of its cryptic language. I have read it and have no doubt one day a western Hindu will explain the content, and rightly so, from a Vedic standpoint.

As we agreed on before that Vedic gods/ godesses keep manifesting over places and epochs, there is no harm including Christ into Hinduism. This will not change Hinduism by any stretch, though it can certainly help evolve the rest of Christianity.

sarve bhavantu sukhina sarve santu niramayah

Poeticus · Aug 2, 2013

opcorn:

Jainarayan · Aug 2, 2013

Sumit said:
But vedas were revealed much before Christianity and Islam. Hence monotheism is vedic concept too.

Exactly. No one religion has the copyright on monotheism. So we have to toss that argument out.

I know, and the concept of prophet is against Hinduism.

But as I explained, he is technically not a prophet. You must compare his teachings to the prophets of the Old Testament to see the difference.

This is what I said, jesus is neither god not prophet acc to hinduism.

Which is perfectly fine and I have no problem with for anyone who sees it that way. However, as I said before, it doesn't negate his teachings on compassion and love for others, bhakti and seeking God (word for word from my previous post, why re-type the same thing?). I think he was a teacher and someone who knew God, a jivanmukta, but I don't think he is God.

Poeticus · Aug 2, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
Namaste MVji

Christianity minus Church is nothing more than an offshoot and sect of Dharma. The last chapter of Bible, i.e. Revelation, is the least understood one because of its cryptic language. I have read it and have no doubt one day a western Hindu will explain the content, and rightly so, from a Vedic standpoint.

As we agreed on before that Vedic gods/ godesses keep manifesting over places and epochs, there is no harm including Christ into Hinduism. This will not change Hinduism by any stretch, though it can certainly help evolve the rest of Christianity.

sarve bhavantu sukhina sarve bhavantu niramayah

Namaste,

This is where we staunchly differ and disagree, Kalicharan-ji.

M.V.

Jainarayan · Aug 2, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
though it can certainly help evolve the rest of Christianity.

If Paul of Tarsus had never been born, we would not be having any of these conversations. If Paul of Tarsus had never been born the world might be a happier place. What people fail to realize or accept (which is even worse) is that Christianity is not Christianity... it is Paulism. This is the public and false face of Christianity.

Poeticus · Aug 2, 2013

Jainarayan said:
Are you taking into account the time and place of his teachings and his audience and what they could (not) understand? The Middle East is and was a patriarchal society, so the concept of father made sense to people. Isn't India also a patriarchal society with the husband being the head of the home? Doesn't that fly in the face of Shaktism? Again, these are things that must be considered when drawing comparisons and differences. However, while that doesn't deify him in Hinduism, it doesn't negate his teachings on compassion and love for others, bhakti and seeking God.

Maybe we can agree on the following:

How about this: Dear Christians, stop your proselytizing and your sneaking attempts at making in-roads into the lives of Hindus by propagandizing that Jesus could be a Hindu god, avatar, etc. etc.

I have been hesitant to involve Jesus into Hinduism because it reeks of proselytization. I abhor it. It makes me vomit. It enrages me to the degree of self-destruction.

If we can keep Abrahamic influences out, that would be for the better, in my opinion. I don't want Hinduism to lose anymore originality.

M.V.

ps - There are many matriarchal societies in India. There were a few in Gujarat while I grew up.

Kalicharan Tuvij · Aug 2, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3433538 said:
Namaste,

Please give me the Rig Vedic verse number for the above if you can.

M.V.

RV (01-155.3-5)

This is where we staunchly differ and disagree, Kalicharan-ji.

Whyeeeee?

Sumit · Aug 2, 2013

Jainarayan said:
Exactly. No one religion has the copyright on monotheism. So we have to toss that argument out.

I never said that monotheism is only vedic concept, I said it is vedic concept too.

But as I explained, he is technically not a prophet. You must compare his teachings to the prophets of the Old Testament to see the difference.

I never said he is a prophet, I said he is neither prophet nor god. Because god neither send prophet nor take avatars. :facepalm:

but I don't think he is God.

Did I said something different.

Kalicharan Tuvij · Aug 2, 2013

How about this: Dear Christians, stop your proselytizing and your sneaking attempts at making in-roads into the lives of Hindus by propagandizing that Jesus could be a Hindu god, avatar, etc. etc.

Actually this is exactly what x-tians see as the biggest block in proselytisation: a Hindu accepting Jesus as just another god, and not something along the abrahmic lines. Believe me I tell the truth here. And those who they were able to convert, one isn't surprised to see the kind of venom that they need to pour against Hinduism in order to keep their false abrahmic faith intact.

I have been hesitant to involve Jesus into Hinduism because it reeks of proselytization. I abhor it. It makes me vomit. It enrages me to the degree of self-destruction.

Hinduism absorbs everything into it. This is a truth and will be proved so. In the meanwhile, "Asat" will be stamped out from all over the world.

If we can keep Abrahamic influences out, that would be for the better, in my opinion. I don't want Hinduism to lose anymore originality.

RgVeda cannot be written twice.

KT

Jainarayan · Aug 2, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3433589 said:
Maybe we can agree on the following:

How about this: Dear Christians, stop your proselytizing and your sneaking attempts at making in-roads into the lives of Hindus by propagandizing that Jesus could be a Hindu god, avatar, etc. etc.

I have been hesitant to involve Jesus into Hinduism because it reeks of proselytization. I abhor it. It makes me vomit. It enrages me to the degree of self-destruction.

If we can keep Abrahamic influences out, that would be for the better, in my opinion. I don't want Hinduism to lose anymore originality.

M.V.

ps - There are many matriarchal societies in India. There were a few in Gujarat while I grew up.

We have to start with that plea in the US first. In a country of > 300 million people, 90% are Christian, 270 milion. The fastest growing segment are the right wing-nut fundamentalcases. Compare that to the 24 million (or 68 million depending on the census one uses: 2% or 7%) Christians in India out of a population of 1 billion. In the US we have Christian groups lobbying very vocally for laws to be made based on "Christian values". Some sneak by, costing taxpayers millions of $$ for the courts to overturn these laws.

These are the facts that I yowl about when Indians complain that India and Hinduism is on the brink of collapse due to Christian evangelization. Christians are a pimple on the *** of India compared to the boil on the face of the US. India has a solution... if the poor are being converted the Indian gov't needs to step in. Claiming it's corrupt is no excuse, it's still the job of the gov't to help the poor. The US has no such weapons against this, except the First Amendment, which as I said, costs taxpayers millions to enforce. I want to either laugh or throw up when I see tv adverts for Christian Mingle.com or the Roman Catholic Church's "Come Home" campaign. So if anyone is to blame for Christians making in-roads in India, it's India.

Jainarayan · Aug 2, 2013

Sumit said:
I never said that monotheism is only vedic concept, I said it is vedic concept too.

I never said he is a prophet, I said he is neither prophet nor god. Because god neither send prophet nor take avatars.

Did I said something different.

We're not in disagreement. I think we're saying the same thing differently.

Poeticus · Aug 2, 2013

Jainarayan said:
We have to start with that plea in the US first. In a country of > 300 million people, 90% are Christian, 270 milion. The fastest growing segment are the right wing-nut fundamentalcases. Compare that to the 24 million (or 68 million depending on the census one uses: 2% or 7%) Christians in India out of a population of 1 billion. In the US we have Christian groups lobbying very vocally for laws to be made based on "Christian values". Some sneak by, costing taxpayers millions of $$ for the courts to overturn these laws.

These are the facts that I yowl about when Indians complain that India and Hinduism is on the brink of collapse due to Christian evangelization. Christians are a pimple on the *** of India compared to the boil on the face of the US. India has a solution... if the poor are being converted the Indian gov't needs to step in. Claiming it's corrupt is no excuse, it's still the job of the gov't to help the poor. The US has no such weapons against this, except the First Amendment, which as I said, costs taxpayers millions to enforce. I want to either laugh or throw up when I see tv adverts for Christian Mingle.com or the Roman Catholic Church's "Come Home" campaign. So if anyone is to blame for Christians making in-roads in India, it's India.

Namaste,

The current government of India is anti-Hindu. Furthermore, Sonia Gandhi is a Christian. You are **** right that it is India's fault. Government, I mean.

M.V.

Sumit · Aug 2, 2013

Jainarayan said:
We're not in disagreement. I think we're saying the same thing differently.

Thank god, at least you understand. :clap

Jainarayan · Aug 2, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3433623 said:
Namaste,

The current government of India is anti-Hindu. Furthermore, Sonia Gandhi is a Christian. You are **** right that it is India's fault. Government, I mean.

M.V.

And at the risk of being snarky (I'm not trying to be), who put the government in? India is a democracy (a representative republic I believe, like the US). We also in the US have no cause to complain about our government (state, local or federal) when we are the voters. If the government is not doing the job we want, we have to vote them out. But we few sitting at our keyboards won't solve our respective governments' shortcomings until voting time.

bp789 · Aug 2, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3433589 said:
ps - There are many matriarchal societies in India. There were a few in Gujarat while I grew up.

As a Gujarati born and raised in the US who hasn't visited India for 15 years, I would like to know which Gujarati matriarchal societies you are talking about.

does hinduism accept christ as a prophet/god

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