Satan according to Messianic Judaism

John 5:46 · Jul 3, 2013

Wolfborne said:
I am curious as to the MJ position on Satan. I know that in Orthodox Judaism, he is simply Ha-SaTan (his title, not name...the accuser/adversary) and works for God, not against God. He has a specific job to do, and follows God's orders in doing it.

How does MJ relate the OT account and the view from Orthodox Judaism to the NT account and Christian belief about Satan? It's a big contradiction to say that he is following God's orders in the OT, and then in the NT make him public enemy #1.

Trying to be open minded and learn what I can.

I must admit I haven't heard that Orthadox Jews believe that haSatan is "following orders from God." So where they got that idea.... I couldn't say. What I CAN tell you is that Scripture (whether "old" or "new") tells us that Lucifer wants God's position. But since he can't have God's throne he wants to do everything in his power to kill us. But in His mercy, God has put a limitation on Satan that prevents him from outright physically killing us. So, the only way Lucifer (Satan) can get to us is to either deceive us into killing ourselves (suicide) OR to deceive us into defiling ourselves so badly that God doesn't want to have anything to do with us.

As a Messianic, I see no contradiction between "old" and "new." In fact, as with everything, one complements the other. I think of it like this:
The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed.
The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

Freelance_Policeman · Jul 11, 2013

John 5:46 said:
I must admit I haven't heard that Orthadox Jews believe that haSatan is "following orders from God." So where they got that idea.... I couldn't say. What I CAN tell you is that Scripture (whether "old" or "new") tells us that Lucifer wants God's position. But since he can't have God's throne he wants to do everything in his power to kill us. But in His mercy, God has put a limitation on Satan that prevents him from outright physically killing us. So, the only way Lucifer (Satan) can get to us is to either deceive us into killing ourselves (suicide) OR to deceive us into defiling ourselves so badly that God doesn't want to have anything to do with us.

As a Messianic, I see no contradiction between "old" and "new." In fact, as with everything, one complements the other. I think of it like this:
The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed.
The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

The OP asked about the being known as The Adversary. Lucifer is also a title, and only appears oncein Ezekiel, a dubious book already. Satan shows no inclination against God at all in the Tanakh.

John 5:46 · Jul 20, 2013

Freelance_Policeman said:
.. Lucifer is also a title, and only appears oncein Ezekiel, a dubious book already.

The name/title Lucifer isnt seen in Ezekiel, but it is used in Isaiah 14:12.

Freelance_Policeman said:
Satan shows no inclination against God at all in the Tanakh.

The importance of the old adage "Know Thine Enemy" cannot be over- emphasized, especially in this day and age. And the best source to know our enemy comes from the Word of God... yes, in the Tanakh. In it we find MANY other names, titles, and descriptions of Satan/Lucifer. They are:

Adversary = Ps 74:8-10 & Lam 4:11-12
Assyrian =Isa 10:5 &12, Micah 5:5-6
Belial = Deut 13:13, Judges 19:22 & 20:13, 1 Sam 1:16, 2:12, 10:27 & 25:17, 2 Sam 16:7, 20:1, & 23:6, 1 Ki 21:10, 21:13, 2 Chron 13:7 & 2 Cor 6:15
Bloody and Deceitful Man = Ps 5:6
Chief Prince = (Ezek 38:2-3 & 39:1)
Crooked Serpent = Job 26:13 & Isa 27:1
Cruel One = Jer 30:14 & Prov 5:9
Destroyer of Nations = Jer 4:7
Enemy = Ps 7:5, 9:6, 74:10, 107:2 & 143:3 & Lam 1:9
Head of the Northern Army = Joel 2:20
Idol Shepherd = Zech 11:17
King of Babylon = Isa 14:4-23
Man of the Earth = Ps 10:18
Merchant with Balances of Deceit = Hos 12:7
Mighty Man = Ps 52:1-4
Prince of Tyre = Ezek 28:1-10
Proud Man = Hab 2:5
Rod of Gods Anger = Isa 10:5
Satan = 1 Chron 21:1, Job 1:6-12, Job 2:1-7, Isa 14:4-23 & Zech 3:1-2
Serpent = Gen 3:1-14
Son of the Morning = Isa 14:12
Spoiler, Destroyer, Extortioner = Isa 16:4
Vile Person = Ps 140:1
Wicked One = Ps 10:2-11
Wicked Prince of Israel = Ezek 21:25-27

Freelance_Policeman · Jul 27, 2013

John 5:46 said:
The name/title Lucifer isnt seen in Ezekiel, but it is used in Isaiah 14:12.

My mistake.

Explain to me how Lucifer has anything to do with Satan though...

The importance of the old adage "Know Thine Enemy" cannot be over- emphasized, especially in this day and age. And the best source to know our enemy comes from the Word of God... yes, in the Tanakh. In it we find MANY other names, titles, and descriptions of Satan/Lucifer. They are:

Adversary = Ps 74:8-10 & Lam 4:11-12
Assyrian =Isa 10:5 &12, Micah 5:5-6
Belial = Deut 13:13, Judges 19:22 & 20:13, 1 Sam 1:16, 2:12, 10:27 & 25:17, 2 Sam 16:7, 20:1, & 23:6, 1 Ki 21:10, 21:13, 2 Chron 13:7 & 2 Cor 6:15
Bloody and Deceitful Man = Ps 5:6
Chief Prince = (Ezek 38:2-3 & 39:1)
Crooked Serpent = Job 26:13 & Isa 27:1
Cruel One = Jer 30:14 & Prov 5:9
Destroyer of Nations = Jer 4:7
Enemy = Ps 7:5, 9:6, 74:10, 107:2 & 143:3 & Lam 1:9
Head of the Northern Army = Joel 2:20
Idol Shepherd = Zech 11:17
King of Babylon = Isa 14:4-23
Man of the Earth = Ps 10:18
Merchant with Balances of Deceit = Hos 12:7
Mighty Man = Ps 52:1-4
Prince of Tyre = Ezek 28:1-10
Proud Man = Hab 2:5
Rod of Gods Anger = Isa 10:5
Satan = 1 Chron 21:1, Job 1:6-12, Job 2:1-7, Isa 14:4-23 & Zech 3:1-2
Serpent = Gen 3:1-14
Son of the Morning = Isa 14:12
Spoiler, Destroyer, Extortioner = Isa 16:4
Vile Person = Ps 140:1
Wicked One = Ps 10:2-11
Wicked Prince of Israel = Ezek 21:25-27

Assyria is a fallen angel? The same being who was cursed to have no legs was walking around on Earth? The enemy of God is a man?

None of those passages are relevant to the topic.

John 5:46 · Jul 29, 2013

Freelance_Policeman said:
Explain to me how Lucifer has anything to do with Satan though...

They are one and the same. Satan isnt a name, but a title. It comes from the Hebrew haSatan which means "the enemy" or "the adversary."

Freelance_Policeman said:
Assyria is a fallen angel?

As seen in Daniel 10:12-13 each nation has a guardian angel. Some are fallen and some remain loyal to the Lord. In this passage we see an angel of the Lord explaining to Daniel that he would have arrived sooner but the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood him for 21 days. This "prince" was so powerful that this angel couldn't fight him alone, so Michael (called the "chief prince") had to come and help in the fight. No man could detain an angel of the Lord and certainly not for 21 days. Therefore, Persias guardian angel is one of the fallen angels (and a very strong one.) Persia has always been a great and powerful enemy to Israel. The same is true of Assyria. Many of the prophecies to the kings or princes of these and other nations in the Bible who oppose the Lord and His people are not men, but an evil spirit that influences them.

The Biblical nations (and their modern-day names) who oppose the Lord (and thereby influenced by wicked angels) are:

The Persian Empire included: Assyria (Syria and Lebanon), Lydia (Turkey), Cappadocia (Georgia and Armenia), Armenia (Iran), Babylonia (Iraq), Memphis (Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria), Media (Iran), Parthia (Afghanistan, Pakistan)

The Babylonian Empire included all those from the Persian Empire plus:
Sudan and Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia and the southern parts of Rome.

Notice that Assyria is only one of many nations influenced by Satan (Lucifer.) All of them are Muslim nations (with the exception of Rome) and all are satans (enemies/adversaries) of Israel.

Freelance_Policeman said:
The same being who was cursed to have no legs was walking around on Earth?

This belief that the arch-enemy of God is limited to the form of a mere snake is why you cant see him in the Scriptures I listed above. Im not sure what Nazarenes or Ebonites are, but if those religions include the New Testament as their Scriptures, then I'll remind you that Eph 6:12 explains our enemy does not reside in a physical snake. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Our enemy is a well-organized hierarchy of spiritual beings (fallen angels) led by Satan/Lucifer. And the wicked spirit that leads Assyria is just one his many minions

FranklinMichaelV.3 · Jul 29, 2013

John 5:46 said:
They are one and the same. Satan isnt a name, but a title. It comes from the Hebrew haSatan which means "the enemy" or "the adversary."

As seen in Daniel 10:12-13 each nation has a guardian angel. Some are fallen and some remain loyal to the Lord. In this passage we see an angel of the Lord explaining to Daniel that he would have arrived sooner but the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood him for 21 days. This "prince" was so powerful that this angel couldn't fight him alone, so Michael (called the "chief prince") had to come and help in the fight. No man could detain an angel of the Lord and certainly not for 21 days. Therefore, Persias guardian angel is one of the fallen angels (and a very strong one.) Persia has always been a great and powerful enemy to Israel. The same is true of Assyria. Many of the prophecies to the kings or princes of these and other nations in the Bible who oppose the Lord and His people are not men, but an evil spirit that influences them.

The Biblical nations (and their modern-day names) who oppose the Lord (and thereby influenced by wicked angels) are:

The Persian Empire included: Assyria (Syria and Lebanon), Lydia (Turkey), Cappadocia (Georgia and Armenia), Armenia (Iran), Babylonia (Iraq), Memphis (Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria), Media (Iran), Parthia (Afghanistan, Pakistan)

The Babylonian Empire included all those from the Persian Empire plus:
Sudan and Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia and the southern parts of Rome.

Notice that Assyria is only one of many nations influenced by Satan (Lucifer.) All of them are Muslim nations (with the exception of Rome) and all are satans (enemies/adversaries) of Israel.

This belief that the arch-enemy of God is limited to the form of a mere snake is why you cant see him in the Scriptures I listed above. Im not sure what Nazarenes or Ebonites are, but if those religions include the New Testament as their Scriptures, then I'll remind you that Eph 6:12 explains our enemy does not reside in a physical snake. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Our enemy is a well-organized hierarchy of spiritual beings (fallen angels) led by Satan/Lucifer. And the wicked spirit that leads Assyria is just one his many minions

That's an interesting change considering that in the beginning it was God directing angels to do deeds. Jacob evidently wrestled with God...or perhaps an Angel but I would say that it was God as the name that was given to him was "he who wrestles with god", not "he who wrestles with angels" though it might be improper translations. The first born of Egypt were slain by an angel sent by the lord. Evil spirits were sent by the lord to trouble Saul, and the lord personally harden pharoah's heart in Egypt.

Later we start seeing the development of the Powers...wasn't that influenced though by the second temple restoration?

Freelance_Policeman · Jul 29, 2013

John 5:46 said:
They are one and the same. Satan isnt a name, but a title. It comes from the Hebrew haSatan which means "the enemy" or "the adversary."

Fine. Explain how Lucifer is the angel referred to as haSatan in Numbers, the being referred to as haSatan in Job, and haSatan in Zechariah.

As seen in Daniel 10:12-13 each nation has a guardian angel. Some are fallen and some remain loyal to the Lord. In this passage we see an angel of the Lord explaining to Daniel that he would have arrived sooner but the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood him for 21 days. This "prince" was so powerful that this angel couldn't fight him alone, so Michael (called the "chief prince") had to come and help in the fight. No man could detain an angel of the Lord and certainly not for 21 days. Therefore, Persias guardian angel is one of the fallen angels (and a very strong one.) Persia has always been a great and powerful enemy to Israel. The same is true of Assyria. Many of the prophecies to the kings or princes of these and other nations in the Bible who oppose the Lord and His people are not men, but an evil spirit that influences them.

The Biblical nations (and their modern-day names) who oppose the Lord (and thereby influenced by wicked angels) are:

The Persian Empire included: Assyria (Syria and Lebanon), Lydia (Turkey), Cappadocia (Georgia and Armenia), Armenia (Iran), Babylonia (Iraq), Memphis (Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria), Media (Iran), Parthia (Afghanistan, Pakistan)

The Babylonian Empire included all those from the Persian Empire plus:
Sudan and Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia and the southern parts of Rome.

Notice that Assyria is only one of many nations influenced by Satan (Lucifer.) All of them are Muslim nations (with the exception of Rome) and all are satans (enemies/adversaries) of Israel.

But is the evil spirit The Adversary? If so, prove it.

This belief that the arch-enemy of God is limited to the form of a mere snake is why you cant see him in the Scriptures I listed above. Im not sure what Nazarenes or Ebonites are, but if those religions include the New Testament as their Scriptures, then I'll remind you that Eph 6:12 explains our enemy does not reside in a physical snake. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Our enemy is a well-organized hierarchy of spiritual beings (fallen angels) led by Satan/Lucifer. And the wicked spirit that leads Assyria is just one his many minions

If he wasn't, why would God curse the snake and not the spirit? Imo, whatever tempted them probably died a while ago. There may be other "adversaries" to God, but the being(s) in Job, Numbers, and Zechariah (if there aren't more instances) don't seem evil.

And no, I don't accept Pauline letters or Hebrews at all. The only only NT books I consider "canonical" are the words of Jesus and the disciples in the Synoptic Gospels. I also doubt the scene with the woman caught in adultery happened either, for quite a few reasons.

Zardoz · Jul 30, 2013

The primary adversary to Israel was and always will be Esau. It is the guardian angel of Esau who Jacob wrestles with.

Rome was founded by Edom the descendant of Esau. Paul was a Roman, and his message is only for Edom and I do not accept that his message is for us Jews at all. I also don't accept John as that Greek book is also not for Jews. It is Edom that enslaves the Israel of Yeshua's time. It is Edom that causes the Diaspora. It is Edom that persecutes and inspires massacre of Jews throughout history. That is the adversary.

John 5:46 · Jul 31, 2013

FranklinMichaelV.3 said:
That's an interesting change considering that in the beginning it was God directing angels to do deeds.

Hi FranklinMichaelV!
I'm not really sure why you think its a change. In the beginning God was in charge of all the angels. And just because some of them decided to rebel and follow Satan/Lucifer doesn't mean the Lord can't control them or use them for His purpose, does it? Just reading the prophecies of what has/will happen to His people Israel by the hand of His enemies proves (to me anyway) that He has absolute control over them.

FranklinMichaelV.3 said:
Jacob evidently wrestled with God...or perhaps an Angel but I would say that it was God as the name that was given to him was "he who wrestles with god", not "he who wrestles with angels" though it might be improper translations. The first born of Egypt were slain by an angel sent by the lord. Evil spirits were sent by the lord to trouble Saul, and the lord personally harden pharoah's heart in Egypt.

I agree that Jacob didn't wrestle with a mere angel. He strove with God, Himself. Also, Ex 12:27 says it was the Lord who passed over the houses with blood on the doors, and not a mere angel.

FranklinMichaelV.3 said:
Later we start seeing the development of the Powers...wasn't that influenced though by the second temple restoration?

Somehow I'm beginning to think we're talking about 2 different things, so let's make sure we're on the same page.

The Principalities and Powers I'm referring to is the hierarchy of leadership among the angels. What are you referring to?

John 5:46 · Jul 31, 2013

Zardoz said:
The primary adversary to Israel was and always will be Esau. It is the guardian angel of Esau who Jacob wrestles with.

I agree that Israels primary physical enemy is Esau. But if Jacob wrestled with Esaus guardian angel then his name wouldve been Isra-esau (or Isra-edom,) not Isra-el, wouldnt it?

Zardoz said:
It is Edom that causes the Diaspora.

All 3 of the Diasporas (exiles from the Land) were caused by Israels unfaithfulness to the Lord and His commandments. God is using Edom just as He used Babylon and Assyria......to exact His punishment for our stubbornness. Just as He foretold.

Freelance_Policeman · Jul 31, 2013

John 5:46 said:
I agree that Israels primary physical enemy is Esau. But if Jacob wrestled with Esaus guardian angel then his name wouldve been Isra-esau (or Isra-edom,) not Isra-el, wouldnt it?

You're right here. Edom was at an uneasy peace with Israel (Judah after the kingdoms split); it was God that the Israelites had more trouble with.

All 3 of the Diasporas (exiles from the Land) were caused by Israels unfaithfulness to the Lord and His commandments. God is using Edom just as He used Babylon and Assyria......to exact His punishment for our stubbornness. Just as He foretold.

Actually, no. The prophets (specifically Amos) were very explicit that God was not using Edom, yet they partook in the conquestation of Judah anyway. Amos even says that Esau is a brother to Jacob, meaning the two countries were related. I doubt God would use Judah's "brother" to conquer it.

CMike · Jul 31, 2013

Angels are messengers of G-D.

They all work for G-D, including Satan.

CMike · Jul 31, 2013

Awoon said:
Is the story of Job, Jewish or Babylonian?

Some say Job wasn't jewish.

There is a question whether it even occurred.

Some say Moses wrote it in Egypt when exploring why bad things happen to good people.

Freelance_Policeman · Jul 31, 2013

CMike said:
Angels are messengers of G-D.

They all work for G-D, including Satan.

Define "angel." Yes, I believe ha Satan is employed by God, but there are other beings that don't seem to be. For instance, there was the serpent in Genesis that actually spoke, and in Exodus God declares "and on the gods of Egypt I will execute judgements." If one accepts Enoch as canonical, it also describes what could be called "fallen angels," who fathered the Nephilim.

Zardoz · Aug 1, 2013

CMike said:
Some say Job wasn't jewish.

There is a question whether it even occurred.

Some say Moses wrote it in Egypt when exploring why bad things happen to good people.

Job wasn't Jewish, he was a friend of Yitro, Moshe's father-in-law. Here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/messianic-judaism-dir/91370-story-job.html

BlandOatmeal · Sep 25, 2013

Freelance_Policeman said:
Unlike Zardoz, I believe angels do have free will, but I doubt Satan is a rebel. See the book of Job.

It is Jesus himself, who seems to foretell a heavenly rebellion:

Matt 24:
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This seems to correlate with:

Rev 12:
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

There it is the red dragon, explicitly described in Revelation as Satan:

Rev 12
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

who causes the angels to fall through his deceit. That is what I would call a "rebellion". Bear in mind, that it wasn't just the stars/angels that were deceived and caused to fall from their station; but it says elsewhere that men also would fall from being deceived by the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet.

I find it difficult to believe, that the Jews, especially Jewish Messianics, find these things so hard to understand. Nowhere in scripture, to my knowledge, does the matter of "free will" come up concerning the angels -- either for or against. What the Devil DOES, throughout Tanakh, is purely evil, whether through free will or pre-ordained nature. I fail to see any difference between this and the Christian understanding.

CMike · Sep 25, 2013

Zardoz said:
Good question, this often comes up in the Judaism DIR.

The thing to keep in mind is the wide scope and spectrum of belief that falls under the MJ label. Everything from 'Hebrew Christians' who basically are Gentile Christians who augment their traditions with Jewish ones, to Jews like me who identify themselves as from Orthodox background, but now 'diversified'.

All such views would be proper to respond here.

The key to opinion of Ha Satan would be if the MJ comes from a Christian, Gentile background or a Jewish background.

Someone from a Jewish background like me would reject the concept of a 'rebel angel' definition of satan and reject the tradition of a 'revolt of angels' as completely unfounded in "OT". (excuse my use of "OT" that's another rejected concept, that it's 'old' as in 'obsolete')

The 'revolt' is from pagan influence on 1st century Roman-controlled Hellenized Judea.
To Jews, there can be no such revolt, as angels have no free will. They can never act independent from G-d, that's why we exist; we who are imperfect physical beings have this ability exclusively.

Hope this sheds some light, but JMHO

Zardoz

Well said. :clap

CMike · Sep 25, 2013

Awoon said:
So the story could be an adoption into the Torah from non Jewish sources?

Some say it was never a real story that Moses composed it when in Egypt to deal with the issue of why bad things happen to good people.

CMike · Sep 25, 2013

John 5:46 said:
I must admit I haven't heard that Orthadox Jews believe that haSatan is "following orders from God." So where they got that idea.... I couldn't say. What I CAN tell you is that Scripture (whether "old" or "new") tells us that Lucifer wants God's position. But since he can't have God's throne he wants to do everything in his power to kill us. But in His mercy, God has put a limitation on Satan that prevents him from outright physically killing us. So, the only way Lucifer (Satan) can get to us is to either deceive us into killing ourselves (suicide) OR to deceive us into defiling ourselves so badly that God doesn't want to have anything to do with us.

As a Messianic, I see no contradiction between "old" and "new." In fact, as with everything, one complements the other. I think of it like this:
The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed.
The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

Based on judaism, our mission is to get closer to G-D.

The way we get closer to G-D is by not giving in to temptation and doing the right thing. The evil inclination comes from Satan. However, without the evil inclination we couldn't get closer to G-D. We would be robots.

Angels have no free well. Each angel is a messenger of G-D, and each angel has a specific job.

CMike · Sep 25, 2013

Freelance_Policeman said:
Define "angel." Yes, I believe ha Satan is employed by God, but there are other beings that don't seem to be. For instance, there was the serpent in Genesis that actually spoke, and in Exodus God declares "and on the gods of Egypt I will execute judgements." If one accepts Enoch as canonical, it also describes what could be called "fallen angels," who fathered the Nephilim.

An angel is a messenger of G-D. He has a specific mission. He has no free will.

The serpent in Genesis wasn't an angel.

By gods of Egypt what is meant is the big shots of Egypt, the leaders.

Satan according to Messianic Judaism

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