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The Christian God, Satan and Jesus

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
It all depends on what you mean by "acknowledging the Christian God." To an Orthodox person, that would mean acknowledging the authority / teaching of the Holy Church, not just some concept (including the concept of the Holy Trinity). So doing of course involves a belief in Satan, conceived of as a fallen angel.

It is possible from a Protestant perspective to acknowledge the Christian God in the sense that one could believe that God is a Tri-Unity without believing in the devil. Lots of Protestants do this. But from an Orthodox perspective, it is not possible to acknowledge the Christian God without acknowledging His Christ, which in turn involves acknowledging the Body of Christ -- the Church.
 

dgirl1986

Big Queer Chesticles!
There is something pagan in me that I cannot shake off. In short, I deny nothing, but doubt everything. - Lord Byron

Where is the honor in that? Pretty much allows the individual to do as he pleases, does it not? What a convenient philosophy --- accountable to no rules and nobody. I might have suggested to Lord Byron to sit in on an exorcism being conducted by a Catholic priest. It might open his eyes a bit and create less doubt.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the quote, or maybe we interpret it differently. I do not see how it gives permission to do whatever you want. If you deny nothing but doubt everything, you do not close your mind to anything but also question everything in a way that allows you to "filter" through the nonsense. It is better to doubt everything and reach a logical conclusion on your own than to be so open minded that your brain falls out.


Come forth into the light of things, let nature be your teacher. - William Wordsworth

I am not objecting to these words, and I know next to nothing about William Wordsworth. Except. In one of his poems he utters a line that many (I have read) consider to be the most beautiful and concise honors given to the Mother of Jesus Christ --- Mary.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.
 
In the parable of Job, Job is set up by God.
What is to be done to Job is set up by god . . . what I am talking about was a set up by Satan in order to prove that Man has the ability to stand morally higher than god and thus the creature surpasses the creator! (not what god had planned)
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
What is to be done to Job is set up by god . . . what I am talking about was a set up by Satan in order to prove that Man has the ability to stand morally higher than god and thus the creature surpasses the creator! (not what god had planned)

That's not how it works. Satan is just a title for an adversary sent by God to test man. Satan does God's will in Judaism, like in Job where he tests faith.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
That's not how it works. Satan is just a title for an adversary sent by God to test man. Satan does God's will in Judaism, like in Job where he tests faith.

Unless, of course, you need Satan to be a different sort of being, or if you want the relationship between God and creation to be different. This happens a lot when people start with a way of life they prefer, and then "interpret" texts in order to show that their way of life is best, or at least okay.
 
That's not how it works. Satan is just a title for an adversary sent by God to test man. Satan does God's will in Judaism, like in Job where he tests faith.
How do you know that's how it worked?

In the Book of Job God is challenged by ‘one of his sons' Satan which represents the ‘doubting thought'. (In Persian tradition, Ahriman is born of Ahura Mazda's doubting thoughts.) God abandons his faithful servant Job and lets him fall without pity into the abyss of physical and moral suffering by murdering his sons and daughters, taking away his livestock, and eventually making the shattered Job of ill and suffering health.

Job, abandoned without protection and stripped of his rights, whose nothingness thrown in his face at every opportunity evidently appears to be so dangerous to God that he must be battered down with God's heaviest artillery. God's robbery, murder, bodily injury is premeditating and he even denies a fair trial. He shows no remorse, or compassion, but ruthlessness and brutality, he violates the very commandments he dictated to man on Mount Sinai.

What is the reasoning behind God the Almighty's resistance to such a little, puny, and defenseless man such as Job? There must be something which man has the ability to achieve, and this something is the very same something found in the Garden of Eden story with our hero Lucifer as serpent. God sees in Job something of equal in power which causes him to bring out his whole arsenal of destruction and parade it before his opponent. God projects onto Job a skeptic's face which is hateful because it is his own, it questions his omnipotence.

The unconscious mind of Job sees correctly even when conscious reason is blind and impotent. God's dual nature has been revealed. Job, in spite of his impotence, is set up by Satan to judge over God himself. God unwittingly raises Job's spiritual consciousness by humiliating him, and in doing so God pronounces judgment on himself and gives man moral satisfaction.

God's behavior is that of an unconscious being who cannot be judged morally. God is a phenomenon and, as Job says in the Bible, "not a man." Not human but, in certain respects, less than human, which is how God described the Archdemon of the West Leviathan.

Job realizes God's inner antinomy, and in the Luciferian Light of this gnosis his knowledge attains a divine numinosity . . . Job becomes like a god!

- from Carl Gustav Jung's "Answer to Job" (1952)
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
How do you know that's how it worked?

In the Book of Job God is challenged by ‘one of his sons' Satan which represents the ‘doubting thought'. (In Persian tradition, Ahriman is born of Ahura Mazda's doubting thoughts.) God abandons his faithful servant Job and lets him fall without pity into the abyss of physical and moral suffering by murdering his sons and daughters, taking away his livestock, and eventually making the shattered Job of ill and suffering health.

Job, abandoned without protection and stripped of his rights, whose nothingness thrown in his face at every opportunity evidently appears to be so dangerous to God that he must be battered down with God's heaviest artillery. God's robbery, murder, bodily injury is premeditating and he even denies a fair trial. He shows no remorse, or compassion, but ruthlessness and brutality, he violates the very commandments he dictated to man on Mount Sinai.

What is the reasoning behind God the Almighty's resistance to such a little, puny, and defenseless man such as Job? There must be something which man has the ability to achieve, and this something is the very same something found in the Garden of Eden story with our hero Lucifer as serpent. God sees in Job something of equal in power which causes him to bring out his whole arsenal of destruction and parade it before his opponent. God projects onto Job a skeptic's face which is hateful because it is his own, it questions his omnipotence.

The unconscious mind of Job sees correctly even when conscious reason is blind and impotent. God's dual nature has been revealed. Job, in spite of his impotence, is set up by Satan to judge over God himself. God unwittingly raises Job's spiritual consciousness by humiliating him, and in doing so God pronounces judgment on himself and gives man moral satisfaction.

God's behavior is that of an unconscious being who cannot be judged morally. God is a phenomenon and, as Job says in the Bible, "not a man." Not human but, in certain respects, less than human, which is how God described the Archdemon of the West Leviathan.

Job realizes God's inner antinomy, and in the Luciferian Light of this gnosis his knowledge attains a divine numinosity . . . Job becomes like a god!

- from Carl Gustav Jung's "Answer to Job" (1952)

Jung was an idiot. (Just sayin'.) His flights of fancy are too ridiculous to even entertain as "interpretation".
 
Jung was an idiot. (Just sayin'.) His flights of fancy are too ridiculous to even entertain as "interpretation".
Carl Jung is widely considered a genius and the founder of transpersonal psychotherapy. It may seem odd at first to consider that an individual unconscious mind would be connected to other individual unconscious minds, but there is a lot of evidence from comparative religion, myth, and the direct experiences of saints and sages throughout history. We are connected by something, its 101 that associative principles exists in determining behavior.

Jung was far from being an idiot my friend. :jiggy:
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Carl Jung is widely considered a genius and the founder of transpersonal psychotherapy. It may seem odd at first to consider that an individual unconscious mind would be connected to other individual unconscious minds, but there is a lot of evidence from comparative religion, myth, and the direct experiences of saints and sages throughout history. We are connected by something, its 101 that associative principles exists in determining behavior.

Jung was far from being an idiot my friend. :jiggy:

Have it your way. He was delusional.
 
Have it your way. He was delusional.
I'm sorry, the Eastern Orthodox Church (which I assume you an adherent of) believes in three, distinct, divine persons (Trinity), Sin, salvation and the incarnation/resurrection of Christ, saints, Mary the Mother of God, prayers for the dead, the ancient Christian practice of monasticism (the renouncing of worldly pursuits to fully devote one's self to spiritual work) as almost all other Christian groups are in indirect schism with the Orthodox Church . . . not to mention the belief in an invisible, more than likely imaginary supreme being.

Now . . . who is really delusion here? :slap:
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
Is acknowleding the existence of the Christian God acknowledging the existence of Satan? Is acknowledging the existence of Satan acknowledging the existence of God and Jesus? If not, why not?

Um... Because the two are logically distinct? The only way it would be the "same thing" is if God and Satan were identical; but clearly they are not. Now, accepting the Christian God will often be part of a larger epistemic package- one rarely just decides that one believes in God without also believing in the divinity of Jesus Christ, the truth of the Bible, and so on. In which case the existence of Satan is also included; although far from always.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, the Eastern Orthodox Church (which I assume you an adherent of) believes in three, distinct, divine persons (Trinity), Sin, salvation and the incarnation/resurrection of Christ, saints, Mary the Mother of God, prayers for the dead, the ancient Christian practice of monasticism (the renouncing of worldly pursuits to fully devote one's self to spiritual work) as almost all other Christian groups are in indirect schism with the Orthodox Church . . . not to mention the belief in an invisible, more than likely imaginary supreme being.

Now . . . who is really delusion here? :slap:

Jung. I thought that had been established? :shrug:
 
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