Jews and Muslims..friends or enemies?

Straw Dog said:

I view friendship and loving-kindness as more fundamental to human nature than any abstract creed. I don't think that it should ever be determined via reference to some holy rule book or conformity to a herd mentality of animosity. Being friendly only due to theological/religious similarities cheapens the essential experience, but tribalism dies hard unfortunately.

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I can't speak for the Muslim side, but as an Israeli atheist who grew up in a secular home, many on the Israeli side have no theological ideology attached to this conflict. It's about security issues, social issues, and other geopolitical concerns.

Moishe3rd said:

As a caveat, I am an American Orthodox Jew who strongly supports the Jewish State of Israel and would like to see all of the Arabs in Judea and Samaria (and in the surrounding areas of Gaza; Syria; Lebanon; Egypt; and Jordan) to accept Israeli dominance and/or rule. I believe that would go a very long way towards stopping the current insane fratricide and self destruction of all of these Arab peoples in and about Israel.

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I did not intend for it to be a political debate..I am more interested in the religious side of it. That being said why not opt for Israeli/Jewish dominance in America..where you reside..If you believe the Arabs are killing themselves..and mind you only a fraction of Muslims are Arab..then let them..Why the need for Israeli dominance in the region..If its something to do with prophecy please discuss.

That being said, it is also worth pointing out that Islam is not Evil.
There is a large contingent of Israel lovers and/or Muslim haters who blame all of the current problems in the Muslim/Arab world on the false notion that it is Islam itself; Mohammad; Allah; etc. that is inherently corrupt and evil.
This is obviously totally untrue when viewed in the light of history.
For Jews and even other non Christians, one could say that Christianity was a total house of horrors for the last 1500 years while Islam was often a house of refuge.

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Ok so Islam was better compared to Christianity for you guys in the past..

Islam, like every other religion, has gone through various good and bad phases.
Mainstream Christianity is currently going through a phase of true repentance and love and, in many ways, Christians are the best friends Jews could ever have.

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So wait a second..the whole religious side of being Jewish might not be important to you.. The Christians(taking a partner with your Lord) are your best friends at this point in time..

However, the Muslim/Arab world is currently going through their Arab/Islamic Civil Sectarian World War where they have been slaughtering each other in huge numbers for the last 100 years and, it is only getting worse.

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You have to consider the population of Muslims in the world..it is only a fraction that is radical or killing themselves..The rest are God fearing people living honest lives..

The Arabs called Palestinians mean nothing in terms of some overall conflict with the Jews or Israel. They are merely several different factions in this massive conflict of death and destruction.

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They mean nothing to you..you are sitting at your home in America..They have been kicked out without good reason..and are expected to accept it..while you vent off your misguided hatred towards all arabs and Muslims in the process.

The Arabs called Palestinians would have to stop killing each other and their neighbors and accept Israeli rule in order for that particular conflict to end...
Of course, this is a total pipe dream as NO faction in this massive fratricidal war appears to be willing to be ruled by any other faction without massive resistance in the form of murder; destruction; and war....

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I dont think its the Palestinians who are aggravating the conflict..youve got WMDs and they have pebbles..It seems like Israelis are the oppressors in that region..concerning the arabs named Palestinians..their agenda doesnt seem to be Palestinian dominance in the sense that they would kill all the other neighbors in that region..on the contrary it seems that the Israelis are pushing for dominance and destruction in that region.

So, no, there is no inherent conflict between Jews and Muslims. Orthodox Jews would be allowed, by Jewish Law, to pray in a mosque whereas they would not be allowed, according to Jewish Law, to pray in a church.

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You said theres no conflict..Im assuming thats in a sarcastic tone..But finally youve addressed what I was orignally concerned with..You are allowed to pray in a mosque but not in a church (because of images of God among other things)
2.You shall have no other gods but me. Again I would like to ask to Jews take their religion seriously? You said Christians are your best friends yet you allow them to worship a false God.. The Muslim way of thinking is quite the opposite..a person regardless of race/ethnicity is your brother once he accepts one God..way better compared to a friend.

However, the death cult Islam that has replaced normative Sunni Islam with Wahhabism and, now, is replacing normative Shia Islam with the Iranian cult of Wilyat al Fiqh, has been blaming Jews and other of the "Far Enemy" for its incredible hatreds and dissension within its own ranks for a long time now.

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More Politics that I am not interested in..Eitherway those differences have always existed in varying degrees throughout Islamic history..but the majority of the Muslims are united..when they say..La ilaha il Allah..I think this is B.S propoganda being promoted and being made out to be ALL of Islam..

Based on history, the only way that Muslims and Arabs are going to ever stop their current insanity is for a significant number of Muslims and/or Arabs to be completely wiped out.

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So you don't want peace..and are the oppressor..whos side should I chose If I was neutral..

Unfortunately, if they do this to themselves, there are going to be large portions of humanity and planet Earth that are going to be destroyed along with their own self immolation.

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They will never wipe themselves out if thats what you mean.

Until Muslims or Arabs can solve their particular self destruction, there will be no peace between Muslims and the rest of the world, including Jews.

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A long post but you only breifly touched at the religious concerns of making Yahweh happy..
Or is Jewish just an ethnicity that your born into..If its a Faith..than what could be more important than helping your friends (at this point in time christians) follow your true God..

I will ask you are you following the ten commandments? concerning these arabs name Palestinians..
10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Eitherway I am interested in if their are any prophecies about the end of times in Judaism..if so please enlighten us..

Caladan said:

I can't speak for the Muslim side, but as an Israeli atheist who grew up in a secular home, many on the Israeli side have no theological ideology attached to this conflict. It's about security issues, social issues, and other geopolitical concerns.

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Thanks for your insightful posts.. I was looking to discuss theological concepts eitherway the picture you paint seems to be a peaceful one within Israel..

Moishe3rd said:

However, the death cult Islam that has replaced normative Sunni Islam with Wahhabism and, now, is replacing normative Shia Islam with the Iranian cult of Wilyat al Fiqh, has been blaming Jews and other of the "Far Enemy" for its incredible hatreds and dissension within its own ranks for a long time now.

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"Wahhabism" or Saudi devil cult has caused the majority of disunity in the Muslim world. And if they were really wishing the best for Muslims, they wouldn't be waisting money on propaganda to be spread to the west and money to terrorist to preach hatred and kill anyone who disagrees.

So you have that part right, but I am not sure you truly understand why.

As fo the "Iranian cult of Wilyat al Fiqh", causing problems. I must ask, how? What does Wilayat al Fiqh have anything to do with this?

Assad91 said:

"Wahhabism" or Saudi devil cult has caused the majority of disunity in the Muslim world. And if they were really wishing the best for Muslims, they wouldn't be waisting money on propaganda to be spread to the west and money to terrorist to preach hatred and kill anyone who disagrees.

So you have that part right, but I am not sure you truly understand why.

As fo the "Iranian cult of Wilyat al Fiqh", causing problems. I must ask, how? What does Wilayat al Fiqh have anything to do with this?

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This thread isnt about your hatred/ignorance concerning the Wahabis..please dont derail this thread aswell with your Sunni/Shia b.s..open another thread up and we will discuss how the Wahabi Aqeedah compares to that of Shia Islam..

Monotheist 101 said:

This thread isnt about your hatred/ignorance concerning the Wahabis..please dont derail this thread aswell with your semetic b.s..

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Moishe3rd brought it up. Sorry you don't like the truth and think it's "b.s". But I will respond to others as they post. You can't control that.

Assad91 said:

Moishe3rd brought it up. Sorry you don't like the truth and think it's "b.s". But I will respond to others as they post. You can't control that.

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I feel terribly ashamed to call you a Muslim..You fail to see the bigger picture..

“Thus, if you see a scholar of law wading into declaring others infidels and misguided, shun him and do not busy your heart nor tongue with him! Indeed, provocations in knowledge are from people’s nature, and the ignorant one is not able to exercise patience with it. And because of this, differences have multiplied amongst people. And if the knowledge was forcefully taken from the ignorant, then differences would subside.”
Imam Ghazali..

Calling people who have passed away devils..without having firsthand knowledge of what they preached...what a shame...I will open up a thread and we can discuss how the Wahabis are atleast 10 times better than the Shias who follow a christianity type offshoot of Islam...Or nevermind I will leave you be.. shun him and do not busy your heart nor tongue with him!

Monotheist 101 said:

I feel terribly ashamed to call you a Muslim..You fail to see the bigger picture..

“Thus, if you see a scholar of law wading into declaring others infidels and misguided, shun him and do not busy your heart nor tongue with him! Indeed, provocations in knowledge are from people’s nature, and the ignorant one is not able to exercise patience with it. And because of this, differences have multiplied amongst people. And if the knowledge was forcefully taken from the ignorant, then differences would subside.”
Imam Ghazali..

Calling people who have passed away devils..without having firsthand knowledge of what they preached...what a shame...I will open up a thread and we can discuss how the Wahabis are atleast 10 times better than the Shias who follow a christianity type offshoot of Islam...Or nevermind I will leave you be.. shun him and do not busy your heart nor tongue with him!

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Ha. Either it is you who can't see the bigger picture, or you just called me a scholar of the law!

Thanks for the kudos then But I am no scholar

Assad91 said:

Ha. Either it is you who can't see the bigger picture, or you just called me a scholar of the law!

Thanks for the kudos then But I am no scholar

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Whatever floats your immature boat..

It in my opinion apparent that is an unanswerable question. To say all Muslims and all Jews either are kind or terrible to each other is impossible. There have been Jews and Muslims who have treated each other with respect and there have Jews and Muslims who have committed atrocities against one another. Just because one person is a Muslim, and he hates Jews doesn't mean all Muslims do. That being said, in the Qur'an Muhammad dictates there must be peace and respect towards the Jews.. however, some of his actions reflected otherwise.

I don't think that it should ever be determined via reference to some holy rule book or conformity to a herd mentality of animosity. Being friendly only due to theological/religious similarities cheapens the essential experience, but tribalism dies hard unfortunately.

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I think you lack the perspective Muslims and Jews have on the issue. Both of us come from religions that heavily dictate our identity. We follow religious and cultural practices that have predated us by centuries (and Jews by millennia mashallah) from the Prophets of God who came to guide humanity. We both strive towards improving our spiritual selves, our physical selves, and our communities for the sake of God. We have similar views on the strict oneness of God. We (Muslims) share and revere the Prophets of the Jews. Ultimately, for me at least, it boils down to reliability and mutual understanding of our religious personalities that are more important than any national, ethnic, or socioeconomic identity.

Monotheist 101 said:

I did not intend for it to be a political debate..I am more interested in the religious side of it. That being said why not opt for Israeli/Jewish dominance in America..where you reside..If you believe the Arabs are killing themselves..and mind you only a fraction of Muslims are Arab..then let them..Why the need for Israeli dominance in the region..If its something to do with prophecy please discuss.

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Could you discuss separating politics from religion in Islam. I do not understand what you mean.
- If there was a way to separate Muslim/ Arab fratricide, one might think that was okay if one did not care about human life in general.
However, Muslim/ Arab self destruction is world wide and, indeed, threatens every part of the world where Muslims and Arabs are busy killing each other.

You have to consider the population of Muslims in the world..it is only a fraction that is radical or killing themselves..The rest are God fearing people living honest lives..

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In the majority of all insanity, most people are simply "God fearing people living honest lives..." It is the minority who are destroying the world that create the insanity.

They mean nothing to you..you are sitting at your home in America..They have been kicked out without good reason..and are expected to accept it..while you vent off your misguided hatred towards all arabs and Muslims in the process.

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You are projecting or misunderstanding. I hate neither Arabs nor Muslims at all. I wish they would stop trying to murder themselves and the world. They should all live and be well.

I dont think its the Palestinians who are aggravating the conflict..youve got WMDs and they have pebbles..It seems like Israelis are the oppressors in that region..concerning the arabs named Palestinians..their agenda doesnt seem to be Palestinian dominance in the sense that they would kill all the other neighbors in that region..on the contrary it seems that the Israelis are pushing for dominance and destruction in that region.

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Again, you are totally misconstruing what I wrote.
I favor Israeli dominance precisely because they are not unnecessarily destroying themselves or their neighbors. ALL of the surrounding Arabs are hell bent on incredible self destruction. Israel is a pimple on the butt of Arab/Muslim self immolation. If Arabs and/or Muslims preferred to live rather than murder their neighbor, they would gladly accept Israeli dominance where they could prosper and grow.

You said theres no conflict..Im assuming thats in a sarcastic tone..

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Absolutely not.
I apologize as I now realize that English is difficult for you.
"Inherent" means that there is no reason or natural reason or "real" reason or historic reason for conflict between Jews and Muslims. None. Not at all. Jews and Muslims should get along fine....

But finally youve addressed what I was orignally concerned with..You are allowed to pray in a mosque but not in a church (because of images of God among other things)
2.You shall have no other gods but me. Again I would like to ask to Jews take their religion seriously? You said Christians are your best friends yet you allow them to worship a false God.. The Muslim way of thinking is quite the opposite..a person regardless of race/ethnicity is your brother once he accepts one God..way better compared to a friend.

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You know NOTHING of history or your English is very bad when you claim "yet you allow them to worship a false God.. "
Jews have no power to allow or deny Christians anything.
And, Judaism as a religion does not presume to tell other religions what to believe - ever. Jews accept ALL people who believe or follow what is called the seven Noachide Laws. And even those that do not are acceptable as long as they don't bother us or the rest of humanity with their evil ways.

I will ask you are you following the ten commandments? concerning these arabs name Palestinians..
10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.

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You appear to be referring to Israel and its neighbors.
Israel has neither coveted nor taken anything that belonged to its neighbors.

Well so much for this thread.

We are all human, all the same. Jews and Muslims CAN be friends. Anyone can be friends.
And why shouldn't they be friends? It's the same God, but by a different name. And if one's soul is so wrapped up in hatred and violence, then one's faith doesn't amount to very much.

Flankerl said:

Well so much for this thread.

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Tell me about it..

Namaste,

I really thought this thread was going to be unifying, because the approach was noble. All is see is: division, division, division.

M.V.

Monotheist 101 said:

Tell me about it..

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I really like your intention in wanting to have dialogue between two groups that seem so opposed, and focus on commonalities of thought, theology, etc. I think that is a great conversation topic. I just want to give you some feedback (just my opinion) about what may not have worked so well in this particular thread.

When I read the OP, that is mostly what it seemed to me to about -- commonality. However, with statements like the one below, even if unintended as an insult, it seems to take a political stand, and seems to me like it introduces a point of political division -- so it is not strange to me to see the focus shift to that in some posts. AFAIK, that is a point of political disagreement, both as to causes of the problem and solutions to it.

It is probably tough for some people to ignore the political position that you stated.

Monotheist 101 said:

That being said it is impossible to ignore the moral necessity of ending the Israeli occupation and doing justice to the Palestinians who have been wronged since 1948.

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Then folks interested in interfaith dialogue should toughen up.

Jayhawker Soule said:

Then folks interested in interfaith dialogue should toughen up.

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Is that directed at me, Jay?

I believe I've noted this in some other thread ...

Not too many weeks ago I was at a meeting involved in planning an interfaith event. Right after the meeting I found myself standing in front of a very large map of 'Israel' - probably reminiscing about recent travels there. A young Palestinian friend walked up, stood next to me, and asked something like: "So, what do you see when you look at the map." He too had family there and memories of recent travels there. We were looking at the same map and legitimately seeing very different realities.

His was a deeply insightful question, and I deeply appreciate the fact that he felt comfortable raising it. Friendship.