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Does the Christian God have free will?

Shermana

Heretic
Where did we get the idea it's impossible for God to not sin?

So when Moses reasoned with God to change his mind to not destroy the Israelites, God was just toying with him the first time?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Where did we get the idea it's impossible for God to not sin?

So when Moses reasoned with God to change his mind to not destroy the Israelites, God was just toying with him the first time?

What sin would you be charging?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
Where did we get the idea it's impossible for God to not sin?

It is impossible for God to lie. God cannot choose to lie.

Shermana said:
So when Moses reasoned with God to change his mind to not destroy the Israelites, God was just toying with him the first time?

You are referring to Exodus, chapter 32, where Moses reasoned with God. When God said that he would destroy the Israelites, he already knew about the factors that Moses mentioned in Exodus, chapter 32, and already knew that he was not going to kill the Israelites. Thus, it would not have made any sense for him to say that he was going to kill the Israelites when he knew that he had no intention of doing so.

An Internet definition for the word "will" is "the mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action."

The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines the word "choose" as "to select freely and after consideration." God never considers anything since he has always known everything, and has always had the same nature.

That means that God could not have intended to kill the Israelites, and then decided, based upon new information, to change his mind. That is because no information could be new to God.

God never says "Let me think about that," or "let me consider that," or "I should not have done that."

If a God inspired parts of the Bible, apparently, he did not inspire Genesis, chapter 32 since God cannot decide to do anything after considering various options.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
James 1:13 says "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." Numbers 23:19 says "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

It is impossible for God to sin since it is it nature never to sin. He cannot resist his nature since he is perfect, and cannot be tempted by anything. Will is only free when it has the capacity to be changed. A number of Scriptures say that God does not change. So God does not have free will.

All knowing gives complete ability to go one route over another. Capacity to change isnt freewill when the decision was made since the beginning. Total knowledge is the only real freedom to choose.
 

Shermana

Heretic
It is impossible for God to lie. God cannot choose to lie.

Where does it say it's impossible for him to lie, without any translation issues involved?



You are referring to Exodus, chapter 32, where Moses reasoned with God. When God said that he would destroy the Israelites, he already knew about the factors that Moses mentioned in Exodus, chapter 32, and already knew that he was not going to kill the Israelites. Thus, it would not have made any sense for him to say that he was going to kill the Israelites when he knew that he had no intention of doing so.

How do you know he had no intention of doing so? He said he'd make a whole new people with Moses. We're easily replaceable in that regard.

An Internet definition for the word "will" is "the mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action."

Okay.

The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines the word "choose" as "to select freely and after consideration." God never considers anything since he has always known everything, and has always had the same nature.

That means that God could not have intended to kill the Israelites, and then decided, based upon new information, to change his mind. That is because no information could be new to God.

Where does it say that no information could be new to God exactly? Why would God even send Angels to Sodom to verify the rumors he heard about it? Where does it say he's totally Omniscient exactly?

God never says "Let me think about that," or "let me consider that," or "I should not have done that."

Why would the text have to indicate that? How do you know He doesn't take a milisecond to process things?

If a God inspired parts of the Bible, apparently, he did not inspire Genesis, chapter 32 since God cannot decide to do anything after considering various options.

This is the problem of imposing aspects of commonly held Theology into what the text actually says.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
Where does it say it's impossible for him to lie, without any translation issues involved?

Hebrews 6

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Numbers 23

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Shermana said:
How do you know he had no intention of doing so?

Because no information can be new to God. Moses did not tell God anything that God did not already know.

Shermana said:
Where does it say that no information could be new to God exactly? Why would God even send Angels to Sodom to verify the rumors he heard about it? Where does it say he's totally Omniscient exactly?

Psalm 33:13-15

The Lord looks down from heaven; he sees all the children of man; from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds.

Jeremiah 23:24

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Matthew 6:8

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
How do you know He doesn't take a milisecond to process things?

God would not need any time at all to consider whether or not to lie since he cannot lie. God did not need any time at all to consider what Moses said since he already knew what he said.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Okay, fair enough with Hebrews 6 (I don't go by the Book of Hebrews or any of the "Pauline" writings I should add), but your verse with Numbers 23:19, as I already demonstrated, in no way says it is impossible for him to do so.

So do you think there's a blatant contradiction with why he sent Angels to Sodom to confirm what he had heard about it, or is there perhaps an interpretation issue, like that God uses angels to do his seeing for Him?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
Okay, fair enough with Hebrews 6 (I don't go by the Book of Hebrews or any of the "Pauline" writings I should add), but your verse with Numbers 23:19, as I already demonstrated, in no way says it is impossible for him to do so.

The verse gives ample evidence that God cannot lie, especially when considered along with some other Scriptures.

Shermanq said:
So do you think there's a blatant contradiction with why he sent Angels to Sodom to confirm what he had heard about it.......

Yes.

The Scriptures that I quoted say that God sees everything, that he watches everyone's deeds, that he knows what people are going to say before they say it, and that he fills the entire earth. It also says that he chose who he will save before the foundations of the world. A God like that would not need angels for anything.

God would have already known what Moses was going to say before he said it. Therefore, he could not have intended to kill the Israelites, and then have changed his mind. No news on earth is new to God.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
The verse gives ample evidence that God cannot lie, especially when considered along with some other Scriptures.

Which verse, Numbers 23:19? It does not in any way say he cannot lie. It just says he doesn't.



Then you're basically stuck, either you address the contradiction as two different irreconciliable aspects which thus render you unable to make a blanket judgment on the Theology or you accept that there's a possibility of the Theological connotation that can be reconciliable.

he Scriptures that I quoted say that God sees everything, that he watches everyone's deeds, that he knows what people are going to say before they say it, and that he fills the entire earth. It also says that he chose who he will save before the foundations of the world. A God like that would not need angels for anything.

You don't necessarily have to have a contradiction. God sees everything because he has Agents to do the seeing. Choosing who he will save in no way violates the idea of Free Will. If I make a choice of what I'm going to buy at the market rather than do impulse shopping, does that mean I sacrificed my own free will? No it does not.

God would have already known what Moses was going to say before he said it. Therefore, he could not have intended to kill the Israelites, and then have changed his mind. No news on earth is new to God.

First off, it could be interpreted that he already knew which souls he would have saved, not necesarily which persons those souls are incarnated as. I see no reason why the text should be read that God was just joshing Moses about how he would make a whole new people with him as the Patriarch.
 

Titanic

Well-Known Member
I would say so. That is if he exists of course. I do know one thing though if I was God most people would probably sell their souls... At least Pantera thinks so.
 

yoda89

On Xtended Vacation
An all knowing and planned God being would lack free-will because he already knows all of his actions already.
 

idea

Question Everything
No. Who you are determines your capacity to will anything. God, according to Scripture, has not and cannot change who He is.

Free will is not the ability to change - it is the ability to control your own actions. An action that comes from will is an action that comes from within yourself - that is self-caused, rather than other-caused. It means we can "act" rather than just "re-act" - the different between "act" and "react" is free will.
 
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idea

Question Everything
An all knowing and planned God being would lack free-will because he already knows all of his actions already.

determinism is not at odds with free will either. Free will is the act of determining your own actions - it is deterministic in nature.

If I know what will be on TV tonight, does that mean I took someone's free will away? no. ... and if I know what will happen through all eternity, does that take away free will? no.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
determinism is not at odds with free will either. Free will is the act of determining your own actions - it is deterministic in nature.

If I know what will be on TV tonight, does that mean I took someone's free will away? no. ... and if I know what will happen through all eternity, does that take away free will? no.

Yes that's true so to preserve free will god would not interfere?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
Which verse, Numbers 23:19? It does not in any way say he cannot lie. It just says he doesn't.

God is perfect, and is thus unable to change his nature. His nature is to always tell the truth. If he told lies, he would be a liar, and he would be immoral. God is not able to choose to sin. The Bible says in many places that God is unchanging. His methods sometimes change, but never his character, and part of his character is to always tell the truth.

The New Living Translation is the best selling Bible in the U.S. It translates Numbers 23:19 as follows:

"God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?"

The following Scriptures show that it is impossible for God to lie:

Hebrews 6

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.

If it is possible for God to lie, then it is possible that he will send everyone to hell. If he did that, would you still love him, and would you still claim that he is righteous?

Shermana said:
I see no reason why the text should be read that God was just joshing Moses about how he would make a whole new people with him as the Patriarch.

God could not have intended to kill the Israelites since he already knew in advance what Moses told him about some good things that the Israelites had done, so God could not have intended to kill the Israelites, and changed his mind.

Shermana said:
God sees everything because he has Agents to do the seeing.

Not likely if the following Scriptures are true:

Psalm 33:13-15

The Lord looks down from heaven; he sees all the children of man; from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds.

Jeremiah 23:24

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Matthew 6:8

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

None of those texts say anything about angels. You can claim that the first two Scriptures do not preclude angels providing God with information, but the third Scripture indicates that God knows the needs of everyone in the world before they ask him. The only way that God would be able to know that would be if he was able to read the minds of everyone in the world. Needs would include food to eat, and healing from disease.

A God who could read the minds of everyone in the world would not need angels to provide him with information about anyone.

Shermana said:
Why would God even send Angels to Sodom to verify the rumors he heard about it?

He didn't if Matthew 6:8 is true.

If God fills the earth, reference Jeremiah 23:24, he must fill the entire earth. If he does, either he personally fills the entire earth, or angels fill the entire earth. If angels fill the entire earth, there would be no need for God to send them anywhere since they would already fill the entire earth.

Acts 17:31 says:

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

If God has given assurance to all men, he cannot lie. If he can lie, Christianity has no certain, immutable, unchanging foundations, and there is no assurance that any man has eternal life.

James 1:13 says:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

That implies that God can be tempted, but not successfully. Consider the following:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/james-1-13.html

biblestudytools.com said:
He [God] was tempted by the Israelites at Massah and Meribah, from which those places had their names, who by their murmuring, distrust and unbelief, proved and tried his patience and his power; and so he may be, and has been tempted by others in a like way; he may be tempted by evil men, and with evil things, but he cannot be tempted "to evil", as the Ethiopic version renders it; he is proof against all such temptations: he cannot be tempted by anything in himself, who is pure and holy, or by any creature or thing without him, to do any sinful action.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
Which verse, Numbers 23:19? It does not in any way say he cannot lie. It just says he doesn't.

God is perfect, and is thus unable to change his nature. His nature is to always tell the truth. If he told lies, he would be a liar, and he would be immoral. God is not able to choose to sin. The Bible says in many places that God is unchanging. His methods sometimes change, but never his character, and part of his character is to always tell the truth.

The New Living Translation is the best selling Bible in the U.S. It translates Numbers 23:19 as follows:

"God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?"

The following Scriptures show that it is impossible for God to lie:

Hebrews 6

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.

If it is possible for God to lie, then it is possible that he will send everyone to hell. If he did that, would you still love him, and would you still claim that he is righteous?

Shermana said:
I see no reason why the text should be read that God was just joshing Moses about how he would make a whole new people with him as the Patriarch.

God could not have intended to kill the Israelites since he already knew in advance what Moses told him about some good things that the Israelites had done, so God could not have intended to kill the Israelites, and changed his mind.

Shermana said:
God sees everything because he has Agents to do the seeing.

Not likely if the following Scriptures are true:

Psalm 33:13-15

The Lord looks down from heaven; he sees all the children of man; from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds.

Jeremiah 23:24

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Matthew 6:8

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

None of those texts say anything about angels. You can claim that the first two Scriptures do not preclude angels providing God with information, but the third Scripture indicates that God knows the needs of everyone in the world before they ask him. The only way that God would be able to know that would be if he was able to read the minds of everyone in the world.

A God who could read the minds of everyone in the world would not need angels to provide him with information about anyone.

Shermana said:
Why would God even send Angels to Sodom to verify the rumors he heard about it?

He didn't if Matthew 6:8 is true. If God knows the needs of everyone before they ask him, he would have been able to read the minds of everyone in Sodom. Even puny humans are easily able to place video cameras in every city in the world, and observe what is going on.

If God fills the earth, reference Jeremiah 23:24, he must fill the entire earth. If he does, either he personally fills the entire earth, or angels fill the entire earth. If angels fill the entire earth, there would be no need for God to send them anywhere since they would already fill the entire earth.

Acts 17:31 says:

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

If God has given assurance to all men, he cannot lie. If he can lie, Christianity has no certain, immutable, unchanging foundations, and there is no assurance that any man has eternal life.

James 1:13 says:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

That implies that God can be tempted, but not successfully. Consider the following:

James 1:13 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

biblestudytools.com said:
He [God] was tempted by the Israelites at Massah and Meribah, from which those places had their names, who by their murmuring, distrust and unbelief, proved and tried his patience and his power; and so he may be, and has been tempted by others in a like way; he may be tempted by evil men, and with evil things, but he cannot be tempted "to evil", as the Ethiopic version renders it; he is proof against all such temptations: he cannot be tempted by anything in himself, who is pure and holy, or by any creature or thing without him, to do any sinful action.

Obviously, whatever cannot be done is impossible. God cannot do anything that is evil. Therefore, he cannot have free will. God can change his methods, but never his character. God changing his methods is not an example of free will since that is merely a case of him changing his methods to suit different circumstances.

Agnostic75 said:
God never says "Let me think about that," or "let me consider that," or "I should not have done that."

Shermana said:
How do you know He doesn't take a milisecond to process things?

Because of much of what I have said in this post.

James 1:17 says:

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness,neither shadow of turning."

Consider the following:

http://www.letusreason.org/Onenes2.htm

letusreason.org said:
Let Us Reason Ministries

The Bible describes God as unchangeable, eternal, immutable always existing. Whatever he reveals of himself as is eternal . All his attributes are eternal, as they flow from his infinite nature who’s essence is also eternal, unchangeable.

God himself says to the Son in Heb.1:10" And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.......and they shall be changed: but thou art the same ( quote of Psalm 102:25). Mal.3:6 "I the Lord do not change." The God of the scriptures is presented as eternal in his nature, unchanging.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=359

blueletterbible.org said:
The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge.

Job 28:24 says:

"For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens."

If God sees everything, he sees everything all of the time. If God needs help from angels to see everything all of the time, he would never send angels anywhere since they would already be everywhere.
 
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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Free will is not the ability to change - it is the ability to control your own actions. An action that comes from will is an action that comes from within yourself - that is self-caused, rather than other-caused. It means we can "act" rather than just "re-act" - the different between "act" and "react" is free will.

Where does action originate?
 
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