Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
well now you know how i feel when people assume that hindus worship idols.
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Are Catholics Christians?
- Thread starter The Voice of Reason
- Start date
Don;t forget that its the words within the Gospel that saves... i can't find anywhere in the Gospel that says salvation is necessary. What about somebody who wants to become a Christian on their deathbed... I believe that it isn't too late for them. Christ has paid the price fully, "It is finished" he said. It is by faith we are saved and not by works ( I am sure I don't need to start pasting in all the quotes... but I can if you'd like me to) we should be baptized out of obediance because we love the Lord, not because we feel we have to.
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
"Don;t forget that its the words within the Gospel that saves... "
Sorry, they are just words. Words in a finite imperfet book. The only thing the bible is good for is a story. Like fairy tales, they are stories with a moral lesson to learn. They are not to be taken literally. Neither should the bible. The only reason some believe it to be more accurate than other fairy tales is that it is somewhat historically accurate. However, even two history books can differ immensely. Think about a history book from America compared to a history book from England. In the American version, we saved England in world war 2. In the England Version, America got in the way. All religions have truth, none have it completely. Not even christianity with their finite imperfect book.
Sorry, they are just words. Words in a finite imperfet book. The only thing the bible is good for is a story. Like fairy tales, they are stories with a moral lesson to learn. They are not to be taken literally. Neither should the bible. The only reason some believe it to be more accurate than other fairy tales is that it is somewhat historically accurate. However, even two history books can differ immensely. Think about a history book from America compared to a history book from England. In the American version, we saved England in world war 2. In the England Version, America got in the way. All religions have truth, none have it completely. Not even christianity with their finite imperfect book.
Melody
Well-Known Member
I just noticed this thread and, since I apparently rattled someone's chain enough on another thread to get this one started, felt I should put in my .02.
I made the statement on another thread that you can be both Catholic and Christian, but it does not necessarily follow that you are a Christian just because you are Catholic. Someone took offense and said that if anyone had the right to the title "Christian" then it was the catholics. A strange comment since Christianity is not a title...it is a belief.
A Christian is not just a "follower of Christ" as some believe. A Christian believes that salvation is found only through belief and acceptance in the risen Christ. Good works and deeds, while they may reflect your walk with the Lord, are not necessary for salvation. Unless Catholicism has changed drastically since I was a catholic, the catholic church attaches other requirements for salvation such as having all of the sacraments.
SGOFPP, has the catholic church changed its position?
I'm not trying to start a religious war. Just trying to clarify since every Christian church I've attended makes a very big deal of the fact that nothing is required for salvation except accepting Jesus as Savior....no other strings attached.
I made the statement on another thread that you can be both Catholic and Christian, but it does not necessarily follow that you are a Christian just because you are Catholic. Someone took offense and said that if anyone had the right to the title "Christian" then it was the catholics. A strange comment since Christianity is not a title...it is a belief.
A Christian is not just a "follower of Christ" as some believe. A Christian believes that salvation is found only through belief and acceptance in the risen Christ. Good works and deeds, while they may reflect your walk with the Lord, are not necessary for salvation. Unless Catholicism has changed drastically since I was a catholic, the catholic church attaches other requirements for salvation such as having all of the sacraments.
SGOFPP, has the catholic church changed its position?
I'm not trying to start a religious war. Just trying to clarify since every Christian church I've attended makes a very big deal of the fact that nothing is required for salvation except accepting Jesus as Savior....no other strings attached.
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Melody - that was me - and it is why I started this thread. First - I did not mention the word title - you did. Your point is valid, but it did not address my point - and this thread has done just that.Melody said:
My point was that the Catholic church predated all of the other branches (sects, cults, denominations, etc.) of Christianity - and that if anyone is Christian, the Catholics are.
For what it is worth, I did not take offense at your statement - I simply thought it was inacurrate and wanted more input from those that have a much deeper understanding of this subject than I (which would be just about anyone other than my dog).
If you take the time to read this entire thread, you will see that this has been addressed from just about every possible point of view, with SOG and the other Catholics clearly stating their case and (in my opinion) carrying the day.
At any rate, your statement that "it does not necessarily follow that you are a Christian just because you are Catholic" confused me, and flew in the face of everything I thought I understood about Catholics.
Thanks,
TVOR
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Melody,
Incorrect.
Catholics believe that we are saved by the grace of God alone. I would wager that our definitions of "saved", "grace", etc etc..... are very different, and that makes it a bit difficult to explain things as you would understand them. Salvation is a process, as the above quotes clearly show, not the result of a one time profession or "sinners prayer" that can not be lost.
Hope this is a start.
Scott
The proper explaination would take another thread (which I would be happy to discuss) but how would you explain these verses of Holy Scripture using that view?
- James 2
24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. - Luke 6
46"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? - Romans 2
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. - Philippians 2
13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. - 1 John 2
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
Again, the full explaination (I think) would be a bit too difficult in just one thread.... maybe I'll post something in the Catholic section later....... but, for now:
Incorrect.
Catholics believe that we are saved by the grace of God alone. I would wager that our definitions of "saved", "grace", etc etc..... are very different, and that makes it a bit difficult to explain things as you would understand them. Salvation is a process, as the above quotes clearly show, not the result of a one time profession or "sinners prayer" that can not be lost.
Hope this is a start.
Scott
Melody
Well-Known Member
The Voice of Reason said:
If the catholic church predates all others, then it means they're the first church....not that they're Christians. Many Christians do not believe Catholics are Christians because they (Catholics) do not believe that salvation is achieved merely through accepting Christ as their Savior. Catholicism has other requirements.
I'm merely arguing for the sake of clarity...well, ok...and the sake of arguing
.
Melody
Well-Known Member
SOGFPP said:
Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)
Salvation is for the asking. Walking in the way of the Lord is a manifestation of our repentance and rebirth but the "walk" is not going to gain us salvation. Our salvation is gained by accepting Christ as our Savior.
However, I also believe that when we truly repent and give ourselves over to God, that our behavior will also change because we will be convicted by God when we step off his path. I believe that's what the quotes you're referring to are saying. If you say you are a believer, then walk the walk....even though the walk is not how you gain your salvation.
Melody
Well-Known Member
SOGFPP said:
"I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee."
(Isaiah 57:12 KJV)
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
(John 14:6 KJV)
"If you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be Saved"
(Romans 10:9)
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
(Romans 3:10 KJV)
Salvation is for the asking, but if we truly repent then our actions will reflect our repentance. However, the actions are not what save us because no matter how hard we try, we will always fall short.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Melody,
In the economy of salvation, your acceptance of Christ grants you salvation, not the sacrifice of Christ?
Even the Bible continuously proves your assertion incorect: for example, Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
There is a difference between justification and salvation, do you know the difference?
Peace be with you,
Scott
So you have the power, not God?
In the economy of salvation, your acceptance of Christ grants you salvation, not the sacrifice of Christ?
You believe or you know? How can you be sure? Did the earlist Christians, those who were close enough to have memories of Christ and the Apostles personally, believe the same as you do? Here's a hint: NO
Even the Bible continuously proves your assertion incorect: for example, Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.
There is a difference between justification and salvation, do you know the difference?
Peace be with you,
Scott
Melody
Well-Known Member
This has been loads of fun but I've spent way too much time on these boards this past month and have been neglecting many things in my personal life so I will say goodbye for a bit until I get my life in order.
If anyone feels the need to get the last word in with me, feel free to drop an e-mail as I'll check that for another few days.
If anyone feels the need to get the last word in with me, feel free to drop an e-mail as I'll check that for another few days.
Melody
Well-Known Member
SOGFPP said:
Scott,
If that's what you believe, then who am I to argue with you? I can quote just as many verses showing that it is by salvation alone that we are saved.
And that is the difference between what Christians believe and what Catholics believe. Or maybe I should say "born again" Christians.
This will be my last post on the subject as I am unsubscribing from all of the boards in order to attend to my personal life which I have been neglecting.
Doc
Space Chief
I agree with you Linus! The only true religous authority is Scripture itself! But that is for another thread! About Christians/Catholics debate, my opinion is that no matter what religion an individual is, it really doesn't matter! As long as they loved God and loved Others and basically followed the laws of Christ, what more is there to do. My basic belief is that a Christian is one who simply lives their lives according to Scripture and follows the laws of God yet lives a devoted life of faith and service to God and Others! I am a Catholic myself and I am part of a Franciscan School. I like basing my day to day decisions and actions on the teachings of Jesus and Francis. Simplicity is most important in life. It doesn't matter what religion you are because you can belong to a religion and not live your life direct and accordingly to that religion. I don't believe it is right to call one's religion superior to all others becaues I don't believe there truly is such a religion. All have their faults in one way or another and none have ever been, are, or will ever be completely pure and perfect. Many complicated laws had been set down in the Old Testament and some of them had been misinterpreted. Jesus came to clear that all up. Love God! Love Others! Love Yourself! Very simple if I don't say so myself!
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Good to have you on here Doc. Hope you stay with us for a while.
TVOR
TVOR