astral projection is biblical

Shiranui117 · Jul 18, 2013

Also in Deuteronomy 18-13 it says . . . The context of this is that these “nations” that practiced these things did so in serving false gods, getting their information from them. Is the bible saying we should not seek hidden knowledge? No, if we get this information from God, or from the spirit realm, it’s ok, but if we get it from demons, well obviously that is not ok. If God is firmly decided to destroy a local people, then God will not want those people to know of it, so they don’t move, so then that would be forbidden knowledge to them, so if a demon revealed it to them, that would mean the demon would be trying to get the people to fight against God’s judgment instead of submitting to his judgment.

God doesn't say "You can do them, but do them with me instead of demons". He says, "Don't do them, they are abominable to Me."

Jollybear said:
1 Kings 22:19:22 is an example where God did not want Ahab to know he would lose the battle because he wanted him destroyed . . . So in some cases knowledge is forbidden, but in some cases it’s not.

Knowledge relating to salvation (i.e. the important kind of knowledge) is never forbiddden.

Proverbs 2:1-6 says . . . So here it says we should LOOK for it and SEARCH for it.

Okay, and?

Also another occult practice is astral projection or OBE, but this is not always forbidden, here are examples 2 Kings 5:26 “But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you?”

We've already been over this, and I've already refuted this one.

Ezekiel 8:3 “He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.”

It was a vision, not an OBE.

Also 2 Corinthians 12:2 “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.” Also Revelation 4:2 “At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.”

Can you at least use material that I haven't already refuted?

Also if all divination and all sorcery or occult practice was evil, why cherry pick on those things, why not say also that all dreams and all visions and all prophets and all God/gods are evil too?

How do you NOT see the difference between necromancy, black magic, sorcery vs. visions, prophets and dreams sent by God? You are basically saying that if some things are evil, then God is evil and the author of evil, and no better than Satan. How do you not see the danger of this? How do you not see the spiritual ruin that results from this kind of thinking?

Because Jeremiah 14:14 says “Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.” This implies there are true prophets as well as false, true visions as well as false, true divinations as well as false, true God as well as false idols.

What is your point? There is no true necromancy, no true sorcery, and no true magic.

Also Ezekiel 13:7 “Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, “The Lord declares,” though I have not spoken?” this implies there is a true as well as a false.

Tell me, is there such a thing as evil necromancy and good necromancy? Just because something is evil doesn't mean it has a good form.

Also, we must distinguish prophecy from divination--divination being things such as augury. In this case, Ezekiel 13:7 is clearly referring to false prophecies.

Also Zachariah 10:2 Does this imply that all dreams are false? No. Notice diviners see visions that lie, ok, well some visions can be true, so that would imply a true diviner. You can’t have a false without a true, if it was all false, he would not have said false, he would have just said, the diviners see visions, they tell dreams, they give comfort in vain. But he does not say this, so he implies there are a true as well as a false. Also what constitutes a true and false prophet? . . . So, divination in the form of seeing into the secret present or seeing into the future, if done in the name of the Lord and it comes to pass, it’s good, but if it does not come to pass, it’s false, and if it comes to pass, but it’s not spoken in the name of the Lord, but in the name of false gods, then it’s also false, just false for another reason.

Alright, and? Prophecy=/=augury.

Not false because it did not come to pass. Some people think, all predicting is false, no, that is not what it says. Also some may say well if GOD does these things in or through you without you trying to do them, then it’s ok; but then one could easily say the same about “giving” about “fasting” about “prayer” about “fellowship” about “witnessing” and other Christian disciplines.

No you can't. Your slippery slope fallacy doesn't work here; you can't compare augury (something God expressly forbids) to prayer and fasting and giving to the poor that God over and over explicitly COMMANDS us to do.

Try to avoid slippery slope fallacies. All you're doing is saying that there's no difference between good or evil, no difference between sin or righteousness, no difference between moral and immoral, no difference between wicked or holy.

But that is not what the bible says, it says WE must take up the cross daily and follow. It does not say God does it for you. Also there is a scripture in Hebrews 5:14 “But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.” Notice it says they trained THEMSELVES to discern. It does not say God trained their senses.

So you think we can grow spiritually entirely on our own without any help whatsoever from God or those who have been called by God to be teachers? Yes, we have our own part to play, but we do indeed receive instruction from the Holy Spirit, and from those who are teachers and spiritual fathers/mothers in the Church.

This is not referring to the 5 physical senses, that is obviously not what needs “training”. Also I would like to delve into the meaning of the word clairvoyant. It means from French clair meaning "clear" and voyance meaning "vision” so, to have clear vision. Is God against clear vision? Obviously not, acts 2:17 “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions”. Now do you want to say God is giving UNCLEAR vision? Obviously not, he is giving clear, unclouded vision, in other words, clairvoyancy.

That's not how the word "clairvoyancy" is used... Clairvoyancy typically refers to mediums and the like.

Shiranui117 · Jul 18, 2013

Jollybear said:
The Hebrew word in 2 kings 5:26 where Elisha says “was not my spirit with you” the word spirit is in Hebrew “leb” and CAN mean “soul, inner man, mind”. Plus, if someone’s heart or thoughts are with you, that does not mean their going to KNOW what you did, but in this case Elisha knows what gahazi did, so his soul literally had to be with him.

It doesn't change anything. "Leb" still overwhelmingly refers to "heart". You can compare it to the Orthodox Christian usage of "heart". There's a reason that "leb" was translated as "kardia" into the Greek Septuagint.

To put yourself in the Spirit means to put yourself there. Think of it like, there is a river flowing or there is the ocean in front of you. Well, you walk in, or jump in. The river does not make you jump in or walk in. You are the one that does it. So, put yourself in the Spirit. John put himself in the Spirit on the Lords day.

It doesn't say that St. John PUT HIMSELF into the Spirit. It means that the Holy Spirit came upon John, and he went into a visionary ecstasy. John was in the HOLY Spirit, he didn't go into an OBE.

So, God’s gifts, is he ALWAYS willing to give them, or is it depend on what he deems fit to give? What about the Holy Spirit, is he always willing to give the Holy Spirit, or is it just when he deems it fit to give?

God blesses us with certain gifts. Not all people will obtain all gifts. And the Holy Spirit comes upon those who embrace Him--namely, when one is baptized.

It’s not passive when the verse says “be filled with the Spirit” for if it was passive, then the part before it would be just as passive which says “be not drunk with wine”, is that passive too? No, that is a command to not be drunk with wine, then he says right after this, but be filled with the Spirit. Be NOT drunk, BE FILLED with. Both are commands, you can clearly see it from the wording how it flows.

You can get yourself drunk by yourself. You can't get yourself filled with the Holy Spirit by yourself; you need God with that.

So, to pray in the Holy Spirit means to pray under his guidance. Ok, so that means the holy Spirit is ALWAYS willing to guide us in prayer. He is always willing to guide us in life, in the laws, in the virtues, in fasting, in relationships, in this in that, ok, well why not also guide us with OBE’s and EVERYTHING we do? Why do you cherry pick what the holy Spirit is WILLING to guide us in?

Because there is such a thing as sin, and God has nothing to do with sin. Remember my analogy about "cooperating" with God in killing people? Do you really think the Holy Spirit guides us into sin? No. We disobey Him, and He has no part in our sins He is there to guide us OUT of sin, but God never leads us into sin, or prompts us to sin. The Holy Spirit is not willing to guide us in that which is against His nature--that is, sin. I really hope you'll start to understand this concept.

Right, so you just admit my point, we play a part, God does not DO it FOR us. He does not MAKE it all happen, we play a part. Well, why would it be any different with us playing a part in an OBE under God’s guidance?

Because we shouldn't self-induce OBE's anymore than we should work black magic under God's guidance.

Right, but it’s also showing our walk with God. If WE BY the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh, we shall live. WE, WE, is my point.

But we never do it alone. We always do it with God's help. My worry here is that you're falling into Pelagianism, the idea hat we can save ourselves by ourselves.

The Holy Spirit does a few things, gives guidance, revelation, produces fruits through us. But you seem to cherry pick what area’s the Holy Spirit will GUIDE us IN. With fasting, prayer, witnessing, bible study, the virtues, laws, the holy Spirit will guide us, but when it comes to OBE’s he won’t guide us. Why do you cherry pick? And what makes your assumptions authoritative? When you pray with the act of your will, your not under the control of the Holy Spirit at that moment, your pressing into him to be controlled by him. Likewise with a self induced OBE, you’re inducing it through the act of your will, and then you submit the experience to the Holy Spirit to control further, meaning you’re willing to praise God while having the OBE and willing to travel where God desires, he actually may desire a few places and then let you pick. With God there is freedom. So, your letting the Holy Spirit control you.

I cherrypick because God cherrypicks the same way.

I have shown how their beneficial. I gave a whole list. They reveal hidden knowledge, if you travel certain places. You can learn the spirit world. You can experience God in a different way. You can sharpen your meditation techniques in your mind.

How does having an OBE sharpen your meditation techniques? And why should I ignore the methods sanctioned by God, the methods that are a part of the life of the Church and have been for centuries, for methods that He has not expressly sanctioned, and which are foreign to the life of the Church?

Just because scripture nowhere says God gave us the right to self induce OBE’s, it also does not say anywhere in scripture that God FORBIDS doing self induced OBE’s either. So yea, it does not CONDONE it, but it also does not FORBID it, it’s SILENT. And if it was truly evil in God’s eyes and truly serious against him, he would have SURELY FORBADE IT, but HE DIDN’T.

Drug addiction isn't forbidden in the Bible either. Drunkenness is forbidden, but not drug addiction. How do you explain that? Is drug addiction therefore not a sin because nothing in the Bible says it is?

Now, I have work, but afterwards I'll address the rest of your posts. Hold tight, and until then, peace and God bless!

Shiranui117 · Jul 19, 2013

First off Jollybear, I realized that some of my comments in previous posts came across as unnecessarily angry on my part, so I apologize to you for that. I've edited those, and will take care to be more civil in the future. My humble apologies again.

Jollybear said:
Ok, I concede that the kingdom of heaven is brought into our hearts and lives here on earth, yea, but also, if that is so, and we are in a figurative sense seated with Christ in heavenly realms, and this heaven is within us, well, why wouldnt we be free to travel to heaven if that is our home?

Because it's not our call whether we go there freely or not. It's God's domain, it's His call who can visit and who can't. He decides who will experience Heaven at the Last Judgement, and He decides who can visit the place itself.

AHUH! But its not apples and oranges in the case of my point, I have scripture to back me with this. Everything in the old testament is a foreshadow of the new testament (Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8:5, Hebrews 10:1) now one of those Old Testament passage were in Exodus 22:21 Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt. Also Exodus 12:48 A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lords Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it. Now this is a shadow for us. This is saying that a foreigner is permitted to move about and live among the Israelites and is even permitted to partake of the Passover if he is circumcised. So a foreigner can come and go out of that land of Israel FREELY. The only way they can partake of the Passover though is by circumcision. So, we are here on earth, we are spiritually circumcised, the cutting away of the flesh by the Spirit, born of God. So, we have partaken of the lamb of God, Jesus (Passover). We are then like a native born (Born again). We are FREE to come and go out of the land. We are FREE to come and go out of heaven, to visit and then come back. Egypt is a type of earth, Canaan land is a type of heaven. We are free to come and go.

I commend you for knowing that the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the New--many Christians don't understand this. I also commend you for trying to use typology, which was one of the Fathers' favorite methods of Biblical exegesis. I also commend you for correctly identifying Egypt as this sinful world, and Canaan being a type of Heaven. All of this is very commendable, and I give props to you for all of it.

However, your analogy still doesn't work (if we interpret Canaan as Heaven the place/domain of God, rather than Heaven the state/joyous reaction to God's Love and Presence), because the Hebrews had to wander in the desert of Sinai. The desert of Sinai is the life of faith--this life, before we die. We cannot simply fly from Egypt to Canaan, we have to wander through the desert first before we get to Canaan. And finally, we must cross the Jordan--the Jordan being our death as we go down into the waters, and also our resurrection as we come out. The Red Sea is our baptism, the Jordan is our bodily death and resurrection. Only after our death and resurrection do we come into Canaan, or rather, Heaven.

Your use of typology was good, and your conclusions were SO CLOSE to being absolutely perfect! Next time, remember to include the history into your typology.

Where does it say in scripture that God forbids it? Ahuh, I thought so, nowhere. And yes I concede that we will all be living here on the redeemed and renewed earth after the last judgment day. However, heaven will be our holding place AFTER the death of this body BEFORE the final judgment day. But just because this earth will be our permanent home, does not mean God is against us visiting other places that are not our home. Just because I live in a house, does not mean I have to be chained inside it all day long and night and never leave the place, right? Same with earth and heaven. We dont always have to be chained to the earth.

Right, I do not see the difference, except in activity only. So what if its a different activity? Cooking scrambled eggs and self inducing an OBE, ok, different activity, so what? Why is one bad, the other ok?

It's just about impossible to have demons attack you because you're standing over a skillet cooking some eggs. OBE's are a very different matter.

Why does God reserve OBEs to himself?

For our own safety. I've seen people over and over who told their stories about trying to self-induce out-of-body experiences and becoming terrorized by demons to the point where they wanted to kill themselves. Satan is the prince of the powers of the air. That's the domain we enter when we self-induce OBE's. When God Himself causes us to have an OBE, He directs the experience and keeps us away from that realm, or safe from its inhabitants--and instead keeps us either on earth or gives us a glimpse of Heaven, or shows us the demons that lurk in the aerial realm, AKA the "astral realm," that we may know against whom we struggle. As Ive said, there's a reason that most OBE's are involuntary, and caused by God. There are doors that we simply should not open.

Show me from scripture that God restricts or forbids OBEs? and for our own good at that? You are saying this, scripture is not saying it.

Well, there's Leviticus 18 which condemns sorcery.

Yes it is cherry picking, indeed it is. God can sovereignty make you pray, but if he doesnt, does that mean you should not pray? You already know the answer, of course you should still pray, so its the same with self inducing an OBE, yea we acknowledge Gods sovereignty but that does not mean we cant induce an OBE by our will, no more than praying with our will.

God commands us to pray. He does not command us to self-induce OBE's. That's the difference.

Oh I see the difference between an OBE and brushing my teeth and flushing the toilet (lol, why did the toilet come to mind? )

I've cleaned out and plunged some nasty toilets in my life--oftentimes those nasty toilets being my own fault!

But I've seen some REALLY bad ones at work that I've had to wipe up...

The only difference I see is the ACTIVITY itself. I dont see any difference as in one being EVIL and one NOT; or one being dangerous and one not. Brushing my teeth could be dangerous, what if I brushed my tongue and gagged and threw up?

What part of your tongue are you brushing that would make you puke? :sarcastic The only way that'd be possible is if you hit the very back part of your mouth near the flap...

Thats dangerous to throw up; its not good for your stomach/mouth/teeth.

Actually, believe it or not, I've puked before and felt a million times better.

A voice in your mind vs a audible voice in your ear, one is a low level evidence while the later is a higher level evidence, because the audible is loader. A voice in the mind could be anything, it could be just your own voice. But if you hear an audible voice, that would not be YOUR voice, so it would be a higher level evidence.

I assume you're looking at this empirically/scientifically. In which case I'd concede. Spiritually, there's no such categorization.

Shiranui117 · Jul 19, 2013

Jollybear said:
I fully understand your point, and the way you presented it was very humorous, it made me laugh, I truly got a kick out of it. But, at the same time though, your comparing apples to oranges. Murder is not the same thing as self inducing an OBE. Not even CLOSE to being the same. Its not just not the same activity, its also not the same as in DEGREE of TYPE of activity. Murder is a direct breaking of a CLEAR law of God. Self inducing an OBE is not breaking a CLEAR law of God that is revealed . . . If God forbids something and tells us not to do it, he is not going to turn around and then MAKE someone go against his own law, right? That should be quite obvious. Well if self inducing OBEs are forbidden by God, then God is not then going to turn around and then MAKE someone have an OBE. God is consistent with his character. Either murder is wrong or its not, either OBEs are wrong or their not.

God can judge others, but we cannot. Does this mean that God sins when he judges people, since it's a sin for us to do the same? No. If God gives us an OBE, we're not doing it ourselves, we're not breaking God's laws, and God isn't making us break His laws. God never overrides our free will and forces us to sin. Just as it's sinful for us to judge because it's not our place to do so, it's not our place to induce OBE's, but God's place.

But hey, even murder is not a cut and dry issue. The bible talks about if you kill someone accidentally, youre not responsible.

Because that's not murder.

Or if someone breaks into your house and you defend yourself, then youre not responsible. Or capital punishment for the purpose of justice, that is not murder. Murder is the motive of pre meditated malice. I just wanted to bring this point up, in case you came back with some scriptures saying God commanded the Israelites to kill. Context, motives.

God allowed incest among the first humans in Genesis according to the Bible, too. That doesn't mean that incest is allowable, but He had to make do with what He had. His standards for the Israelites )even after giving the Mosaic Law) were extremely low; His standards for the Canaanites were even lower. God used the Israelites to execute judgement upon the Canaanites, and vice-versa.

Jollybear said:
Lol, shotgun vs water gun analogy, not only is this apples and oranges, the WHOLE analogy is WAY off. Your barking up the wrong tree. First, is prayer like a watergun? What are we doing? Squirting God in the eye?

How is it off?

Lol. No, prayer is more like talking to a friend who happens to be your king at the same time; that analogy fits better. And OBEs are not the shotgun either, her is a better analogy for them: your body is a seed, a seed has a shell on it, the shell breaks open and sprouts and then it grows up through the dirt and into the sunlight. Just because you make an analogy does not mean its going to be accurate.

Self-induced OBE's are not sunshine and daisies. The analogy you make is better suited to freeing ourselves from sin and growing into the light of grace.

Plus, even if I GAVE you this analogy, STILL your point does not work. Heres why: a shotgun(what you refer to as self induced OBEs) are not evil, its what you DO with the shotgun that can be either good or evil . . . If an OBE was truly as dangerous as what youre saying, then walking on a trail or going to the gym or eating food would be JUST as EQUALLY dangerous.

Does going to the gym allow for visual demonic attacks? Does eating food cause a fear so profound that people wanted to kill themselves to escape it? Is a sheep being welcomed into a wolf's den and even being treated well by the wolves for a time not in danger? The sheep may say to his brothers, "I'm fine, this place is actually quite nice! Look at my hospitable new friends!" But does that mean, therefore, that the sheep won't eventually be terrorized, overcome and devoured?

Physical danger pales in comparison to spiritual danger. Granted, we shouldn't place ourselves willingly into any kind of danger. But walking on a trail with the threat of slipping and falling is like a walk through a field of flowers compared to opening oneself up to demonic attack.

Theres MANY ways to expose the fruitless deeds of darkness. Theres many ways to praise God, theres many ways to be in awe of his handy work in creation . . . but YOU CAN do OBEs to do ALL of these things IF YOU WISH TO, its not against God.

If God really wanted us to self-induce OBE's, He would have encouraged us to do so. Never are we encouraged to perform them. Even the most advanced and mystical types of prayer and spirituality in Orthodox Christianity have an incredibly strong Biblical basis, deriving their source from exhortations and encouragements of God. We do not see this same amount of support for OBE's, merely twisting passages out of context and trying to redefine several clear Biblical terms and phrases.

Tell me, should I get high on crystal meth because I think it'll help me pray better or praise God?

Haha! Your funny, I love it, the pandas, you got me cracking up here. The toilet and the pandas . Im seriously laughing my guts out here, but thats a good thing, proverbs says laughter is medicine to the bones and health to the body so your giving me some medicine now, thank you, I need it. Ok..now.to your point: another apples and oranges, people did have near death experiences back in biblical days, people did have OBEs back in biblical days.

Near-death experiences=/=self-induced OBE's through altering our consciousness via meditation or drugs or magic.

Also, yes, there were ancient meditation practices back in biblical times, and those methods also induced OBEs. Here is a source to prove this http://www.iacworld.org/english/research/history-obes . So, Moses would have known about OBEs, God would also have been aware of people having them and practicing them and or connecting to the spirit realm. If it really was that serious to him, and evil, he would have forbade it, but he did not.

That source is incredibly vague without sources. Do you have something a bit more scholarly?

Huh? That makes no sense in relation to what I said. Again here is what I said But self induced OBE's don't "harm" the body. They don't even harm the soul. Also your not comming to knowledge through sin, it's not a sin to self induce an OBE, if it was a sin, then anytime God made someone have an OBE, he would thus be making them sin, and that makes no sense, right? It's equivelant to saying God making adam and eve eat the fruit, so now it's not a sin to eat the fruit, just as long as God makes them do it, but that's silly. If God makes anything happen, then we know it's not a sin period. So, we know OBE's are not sinful.

I've already addressed this same point numerous times in my other posts.

If I understand you correctly, your saying, if God makes you do it, its ok, but if you do it, its not ok, and even though that may APPEAR hypocritical, its not, because God is in the position to judge, not us. That is what I THINK your saying, and if Im correct in understanding you that is so absurd that you would even think God would be like this. Gods judgment is within truth, its not within hypocrisy.

God doesn't "make us" have OBE's. They just happen to us. They are things that God Himself gives to us under very rare circumstances, on a case-by-case basis.

Im not getting the difference because the way your defining or describing free will is like, if we do something, then its wrong, but if God does it for us or through us, then its not wrong. First you say OBEs are good if God does them for you, but if we self induce them, then its wrong. If Adam and eve eat the fruit, then its wrong, but if Adam and eve dont eat the fruit by their own ability (self induce, will) then its not wrong. Huh? Youre not being consistent. Which is it, God makes us do it and then its good, or we act with our will and it can be good too?

God would not force Adam and Eve into disobeying His command, so your analogy does not work. God dissuades us from self-inducing OBE's because of the danger that we face in doing it ourselves. It's different when God gives us an OBE, because He guides us away from the danger and protects us from it; He is in control when He gives them to us. When we self-induce them, God is not in control, we are. And frankly, no matter how experienced we think we are in the aerial realm, we have no idea what we're actually doing.

Jollybear · Jul 20, 2013

Ok, thanks for your response, i will be working on my response a little bit each day (have it put in word perfect, lol, it's alot to respond to)

Windwalker · Jul 20, 2013

Shiranui117 said:
Near-death experiences=/=self-induced OBE's through altering our consciousness via meditation or drugs or magic.

Actually, this is incorrect. What happens in an NDE may in fact, and is in fact, something that can be experienced through meditative practice. I have had an NDE, and that is what sent me on this long path of mine to this day. What I experience in meditation is in fact is touching the face of what I did in my NDE all those many years ago.

It is the same thing that happens in the brain, activating the same areas that NDEs do. The NDE can completely change ones experience of life, as it is a deeply spiritual experience (I can attest to that), and so the same is true in meditation where you touch the same thing. Meditation can bring about an NDE experience, and does. It is how the mystic 'sees God'.

The use of drugs to enter into altered states of conscious for the purpose of spiritual vision and insight is well known and documented. But of course it is part of a vision-quest, and not just some recreational drug use. I myself don't use drugs, as for one thing meditation takes you far deeper and with much more control, in addition to being legal.

I think your real question boils down to this. Is doing a practice to produce altered states of consciousness, through whatever means in order to gain insight into the spiritual a good or a bad thing? Is this an accurate assessment?

You do know that simple prayer itself induces altered states of consciousness?

I think both of you, and anyone else following this thread would benefit greatly by understanding what exactly is going on in our brains in things like an NDE, or an out of body experience, or various altered states of consciousness. These are all things that those who experience these find their lives affected positively (for the most part). I think this knowledge will help you both speak with more knowledge on the subject.

Sorry for the length of this, but trust me, it's well worth your effort to watch as it addresses these things with a whole different set of eyes. He specifically speaks to NDEs and OBEs and altered states of consciousness in brain activities. BTW, in no way whatsoever does the fact that there is a brain thing going on dismiss the validity of spiritual experience! That's stupid to say this, as all experiences of our lives have a brain thing going on as well. That doesn't make them 'not real'. Correct?

[youtube]Eid6fiAj8WY[/youtube]
1 God and the Brain - The Persinger 'God Helmet', The Brain, and visions of God. - YouTube

Shiranui117 · Jul 20, 2013

Jollybear said:
Ok, thanks for your response, i will be working on my response a little bit each day (have it put in word perfect, lol, it's alot to respond to)

Yeah, feel free to condense my points like there's no tomorrow, please >_> Lol

Shiranui117 · Jul 20, 2013

Windwalker said:
Actually, this is incorrect. What happens in an NDE may in fact, and is in fact, something that can be experienced through meditative practice. I have had an NDE, and that is what sent me on this long path of mine to this day. What I experience in meditation is in fact is touching the face of what I did in my NDE all those many years ago.

It is the same thing that happens in the brain, activating the same areas that NDEs do. The NDE can completely change ones experience of life, as it is a deeply spiritual experience (I can attest to that), and so the same is true in meditation where you touch the same thing. Meditation can bring about an NDE experience, and does. It is how the mystic 'sees God'.

Interesting. If it's not too personal, would you mind sharing that experience?

The use of drugs to enter into altered states of conscious for the purpose of spiritual vision and insight is well known and documented. But of course it is part of a vision-quest, and not just some recreational drug use. I myself don't use drugs, as for one thing meditation takes you far deeper and with much more control, in addition to being legal.

Agreed.

I think your real question boils down to this. Is doing a practice to produce altered states of consciousness, through whatever means in order to gain insight into the spiritual a good or a bad thing? Is this an accurate assessment?

You do know that simple prayer itself induces altered states of consciousness?

You could say that about listening to music, or anything, really. The difference is how much control over that state we have.

I think both of you, and anyone else following this thread would benefit greatly by understanding what exactly is going on in our brains in things like an NDE, or an out of body experience, or various altered states of consciousness. These are all things that those who experience these find their lives affected positively (for the most part). I think this knowledge will help you both speak with more knowledge on the subject.

Sorry for the length of this, but trust me, it's well worth your effort to watch as it addresses these things with a whole different set of eyes. He specifically speaks to NDEs and OBEs and altered states of consciousness in brain activities. BTW, in no way whatsoever does the fact that there is a brain thing going on dismiss the validity of spiritual experience! That's stupid to say this, as all experiences of our lives have a brain thing going on as well. That doesn't make them 'not real'. Correct?

Agreed; we're both physical and spiritual, so it's only natural that both parts are involved in our spiritual life.

[youtube]Eid6fiAj8WY[/youtube]
1 God and the Brain - The Persinger 'God Helmet', The Brain, and visions of God. - YouTube[/quote]
Very interesting. Obviously as a Christian I would disagree that God is solely a product of our brain or located inside of it, and I know of the experiences of many Desert Fathers and other Orthodox monastics that defy his pattern of how we experience God (mainly skipping the fear bit entirely), but knowing the regions of the brain that are active during these experiences is fascinating. Interestingly, I've heard multiple stories of OBE's (not NDE's, but strictly OBE's induced by conscious practice and deliberate technique) that begin positively or neutrally, but ended very, very negatively.

Windwalker · Jul 20, 2013

Shiranui117 said:
Interesting. If it's not too personal, would you mind sharing that experience?

I know I've spoke of it on the site before so I don't mind. It was a time in my life of deep existential crisis which took me to the door of death. It's hard to explain, but I had moved from a nightmare dream I was in, into being consciously aware I was slipping away into death and could not stop it. I'm not sure what was happening, some sort of seizure I suppose as I was alone at the time, and could feel my body shaking as my consciousness was slipping into blackness. At the second I KNEW I was about to slip into nothing, into death, absolute fear seized me and something inside me screamed out in my mind, "God help me!".

At that instant time stopped. There was nothing but pure white light and me looking up into it. There was silence and infinite mind looking down upon me, as it were, in pure awareness. It was pure compassion in infinite awareness and in a power so beyond fathoming that could completely crush you, yet held in absolute Grace. It was pure mind to my mind, and I saw my whole life from my childhood until now with this knowledge that I was never alone. That that grace and awareness and absolute love had been present with me at all points of my life.

I gazed up into this infinity, and saw it as but a sliver of infinity beyond it. But yet, within that sliver was infinity in itself. Absolute love, absolute power, absolute knowledge, absolute compassion, absolute grace, absolute wisdom, absolute awareness. And then as I looked into this, as this was shared with my mind, I instantly was awaken and aware of myself in my room. Floods of tears streamed out of me, like rivers washing away all the pain and fear of my constricted life from me. Stunned, afraid, and forever changed.

My life has never been the same since. And what followed a few days later, was to even greater, a release in my conscious mind into the living light of all that is. But that was not the NDE experience, so we can talk of that separately.

Shiranui117 said:
I think your real question boils down to this. Is doing a practice to produce altered states of consciousness, through whatever means in order to gain insight into the spiritual a good or a bad thing? Is this an accurate assessment?

I think that was my question to you.

What was your answer?

Shiranui117 said:
You could say that about listening to music, or anything, really. The difference is how much control over that state we have.

Which is why I think meditation is far better than doing drugs. You have control of this. You can pull back or go further as you are ready, or able. One of the things I do, naturally, is to keep myself grounded, to keep myself aware of my connection to the body. I personally haven't had any OBE experiences, and not sure I see the value in it, actually.

Shiranui117 said:
Very interesting. Obviously as a Christian I would disagree that God is solely a product of our brain or located inside of it, and I know of the experiences of many Desert Fathers and other Orthodox monastics that defy his pattern of how we experience God (mainly skipping the fear bit entirely), but knowing the regions of the brain that are active during these experiences is fascinating. Interestingly, I've heard multiple stories of OBE's (not NDE's, but strictly OBE's induced by conscious practice and deliberate technique) that begin positively or neutrally, but ended very, very negatively.

Did you watch the entire thing? If so, we can talk in some detail with a common frame of reference.

I do not believe his is saying that God is solely a product of our brain. Not at all. What he said is the experience of God is. Although, I will add this, that is really more just the language to say that 'whatever God is', as he puts it, when people have an experience of God, this is what is going on in the brain. Obviously there will be physical correlates, as anything we experience will have those. It doesn't mean "it's just the brain", anymore than saying love is 'just the brain'. There is something we experience, and the brain plays its role in that experience. That's all that means. That's all he was and is saying.

Yes, you don't have to hit the fear part before each experience of God! But at some point, I'll bet you, that was faced. I experience God very much I as I described above, in my meditations on a daily basis, and even during the day in waking consciousness as I open to it. I don't have that fear part at all anymore. It was that initial opening of the pathway. As he said, once that has been shunted open, it remains open.

Make sense?

Shiranui117 · Jul 21, 2013

Windwalker said:
I know I've spoke of it on the site before so I don't mind. It was a time in my life of deep existential crisis which took me to the door of death. It's hard to explain, but I had moved from a nightmare dream I was in, into being consciously aware I was slipping away into death and could not stop it. I'm not sure what was happening, some sort of seizure I suppose as I was alone at the time, and could feel my body shaking as my consciousness was slipping into blackness. At the second I KNEW I was about to slip into nothing, into death, absolute fear seized me and something inside me screamed out in my mind, "God help me!".

At that instant time stopped. There was nothing but pure white light and me looking up into it. There was silence and infinite mind looking down upon me, as it were, in pure awareness. It was pure compassion in infinite awareness and in a power so beyond fathoming that could completely crush you, yet held in absolute Grace. It was pure mind to my mind, and I saw my whole life from my childhood until now with this knowledge that I was never alone. That that grace and awareness and absolute love had been present with me at all points of my life.

I gazed up into this infinity, and saw it as but a sliver of infinity beyond it. But yet, within that sliver was infinity in itself. Absolute love, absolute power, absolute knowledge, absolute compassion, absolute grace, absolute wisdom, absolute awareness. And then as I looked into this, as this was shared with my mind, I instantly was awaken and aware of myself in my room. Floods of tears streamed out of me, like rivers washing away all the pain and fear of my constricted life from me. Stunned, afraid, and forever changed.

My life has never been the same since. And what followed a few days later, was to even greater, a release in my conscious mind into the living light of all that is. But that was not the NDE experience, so we can talk of that separately.

That was beautiful, and very profound. Thanks for sharing!

I think that was my question to you. What was your answer?

Whoops, fail. I tend to do that a lot for some odd reason... I guess I need to preview three times before hitting Submit Reply

Anyway, I think there are good and bad methods, as well as good and bad altered states of consciousness. The good methods are those that God encourages us to use through the Holy Scriptures, and these are verbal prayer, psalmody, singing of hymns, reading the works of the Fathers, reading the lives of the Saints, and (especially) reading and meditating upon the Scriptures, and (at higher levels) contemplation. The good altered states of consciousness (using the term loosely) are hesychia (silence/repose/inner stillness), ecstasy, vision of God, and theia henosis (union with God).

BTW, my source for much of what I'm about to say, and have said thus far, is a book titled Orthodox Prayer Life by a monk who is a spiritual father to 120 monks in the Monastery of St. Macarius the Great in Wadi El-Natroun, Egypt.

Which is why I think meditation is far better than doing drugs. You have control of this. You can pull back or go further as you are ready, or able. One of the things I do, naturally, is to keep myself grounded, to keep myself aware of my connection to the body. I personally haven't had any OBE experiences, and not sure I see the value in it, actually.

Agreed. I'm going to attempt to explain some of the spiritual states that fall under the category of "ecstasy" that I've read in the book I linked to above. Ecstasy may bring about something like an OBE, but the character of it is far different; the soul's perception is completely shut off from the physical senses, and the body is left in a state between sleep and death. Someone could cut your limbs off and you wouldn't even notice. But ecstasy may also be that one's body still receives physical stimulus, but doesn't respond, as the mind (I'm assuming "mind"=Greek nous, AKA the rational/"mind" part of the spirit) has gone beyond the physical senses, even while the soul remains with the body. In some cases, the Fathers speak of how both soul and mind (This is all in English, but I assume again that mind=nous) leave the body.

We can clearly see the difference between the state of ecstasy and the OBE described by Jollybear, and discussed for a time in the video, in which one travels around this world as a disembodied spirit. Rather, in the state of ecstasy (at least the specific type of ecstasy when one's mind or soul+mind depart from the body), one is taken by the Spirit of God to heavenly places. The Holy Spirit takes the wheel, as it were, and we surrender our control. Rather than perceiving things of this world, one perceives heavenly things. I haven't gotten through the section of the book dealing with the vision of God yet, but when I do, I can share a couple insights from that. Also, how ecstasy occurs differs from how OBE's occur; with ecstasy, all that one needs to enter into ecstasy is a deep, absolute and profound love for God, forsaking all things of this world for Him. Prayer, meditation and contemplation can help put us in a right state of mind before God. The reason that one takes leave of the physical senses in ecstasy is so they can experience God without interference from one's imagination or physical senses. But God can give this state of ecstasy to whoever He sees fit, without even these preconditions; grace is unbound. OBE's as described by Jollybear, on the other hand, are derived solely from our own effort and practice, and we have control over the experience, not God. We are not transported to heavenly places by the Holy Spirit, but remain either on this earth, or in the aerial realm.

Did you watch the entire thing? If so, we can talk in some detail with a common frame of reference.

Yes, I did.

I do not believe his is saying that God is solely a product of our brain. Not at all. What he said is the experience of God is. Although, I will add this, that is really more just the language to say that 'whatever God is', as he puts it, when people have an experience of God, this is what is going on in the brain. Obviously there will be physical correlates, as anything we experience will have those. It doesn't mean "it's just the brain", anymore than saying love is 'just the brain'. There is something we experience, and the brain plays its role in that experience. That's all that means. That's all he was and is saying.

Fair enough. I guess I'd personally nuance it even more and say that the regions of the brain stimulated during spiritual states or experiences of God are the physical manifestation, but not the product, of said states/experiences. I think you agree, and the professor would also accept this?

Yes, you don't have to hit the fear part before each experience of God! But at some point, I'll bet you, that was faced. I experience God very much I as I described above, in my meditations on a daily basis, and even during the day in waking consciousness as I open to it. I don't have that fear part at all anymore. It was that initial opening of the pathway. As he said, once that has been shunted open, it remains open.

Make sense?

Fair enough. I would like to explore some of the lives of the Saints to see how often this fear bit is experienced before their first encounters with God.

Jollybear · Jul 22, 2013

Shiranui117 said:
Where does it talk about how occult practice led people to God in this case?

Balaam was led to God using his divination, numbers 22:7 says “The elders of moab and midian left, taking with them the fee for divination.” Then in verse 8 balaam says “Spend the night here” balaam said to them, “and I will bring you back the answer the Lord gives me.” Then in chapter 23 verse 1-3 talks about his offerings to God, then in verses 13-15 he is making more offerings to God a second time, then in verses 27-30 he makes more offerings to God a third time, the third time is the last time. Then in chapter 24 verse 1 it says “Now when balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel, he did not resort to sorcery as at other times”. So, when balaam told the Moabites to spend the night here, and then balaam would bring the answer back, what was he doing? He was using divination (what he knew, he did not know any of the laws of Isreal) to meet with the Lord God. Then he was using divination three more times to meet with God, God meets him all four times. Once he sees that God is bent on blessing the people, he no longer TRIES to meet with God using what he knows (divination). He already got the answer and was sure of it; he got the answer using divination to connect to God.

Look at it in context. It's not talking about black magic occultic divination;

I didn’t say it was “black magic occult divination”. I said it was divination, that’s it. Divination, the same thing God “forbade” yet this divination LED laban to God. But did God forbid laban from using divination here? No, so what is it that God forbade? It was divination WITHIN an EVIL context, such as what the Canaanites were doing.

it's worth noting that the word used for "divination" also has other meanings, such as "experience" or "perceive".

27 And Laban said to him, “Please stay, if I have found favor in your eyes, for I have learned by experience that the Lord has blessed me for your sake.” 28 Then he said, “Name me your wages, and I will give it.”
29 So Jacob said to him, “You know how I have served you and how your livestock has been with me. 30 For what you had before I came was little, and it has increased to a great amount; the Lord has blessed you since my coming. And now, when shall I also provide for my own house?”
Laban is talking about how he has learned by experience (i.e. learned by observing and watching what was going on with Jacob's work) that God has blessed Laban since Jacob's coming (i.e. through the increase of Laban's livestock). No occultic stuff going on there.

If I go along with your point here that laban learned by experience or perception that God blessed him because of Jacob, then this would mean we all would be practicing divination every day of our lives, we all learn stuff by experience and perception, does God forbid learning by experience and perception? Obviously not. So is he forbidding divination in this context? No, ok, if you want to call self inducing OBE’s as divination, ok, we enter the spirit world and learn it by experience and perception (divination, experience, perception).

Also, playing along with your point that it was experience and perception, I’m going to make another point here: Laban did not learn by NATURAL experience and perception that God blessed him because of Jacob. No, it was not natural perception. You cannot FIND out by natural perception and experience whether God is blessing your house, cattle, field, by a person’s work by just naturally observing it and experiencing it. An atheist can do hard work and produce much bounty, does that mean God is blessing whoever because of this hard working atheist? Of course not, this bounty is coming about because of a hard working, intelligent individual, true God gave him abilities that he does not acknowledge as coming from God, but still, he is not getting any guidance or direction from God to make his bounty even greater, so his bounty is only so great. Now, from looking at a believers work and seeing bounty and then looking at a non believers work and seeing bounty, how would you find out who God is DIRECTLY blessing? You would not be able to tell by natural perception or experience, you could only tell by SPIRITUAL perception and experience, i.e. divination.
Also my next point is this: the word used here in the Hebrew is “nachash” and it means “to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen, to practice divination, to observe the signs or omens”. So, laban was doing this stuff and it led him to the Lord, that is, to a correct perception of what was going on, which was, God blessing him because of Jacob. If divination was ALWAYS of the devil, why would it lead him to the truth? Devil would be shooting himself in the foot by working against himself by revealing the truth to laban. Laban was a worshiper of idols, why would the devil encourage him to start worshiping God by revealing this reality to him? That would not make sense, the devil wants to lead people away from God not to him.

Jollybear · Jul 22, 2013

God had given Joseph the gift of interpreting anyone's dreams, as well as other spiritual gifts. This does not imply that he used occultic practices (I'm talking "occultic" in the sense in which it is commonly perceived, i.e. through magic).

When I talk about divination, sorcery, occult, and all that stuff, I am referring to the context of how it is used in scripture, not how its meaning is today in its diverse forms. We have to know what scripture says about the occult, what Gods TRUE attitude toward it is, in every circumstance and context within scripture, that is what I am getting at.

Plus, how do we know that Joseph ever even used the cup for divination? He had already lied in planting the cup on Benjamin and then scaring his brothers half to death with threats of slavery. Who's to say that the cup being used for divination was just another part of the ruse?

You bring up a good point, Joseph lied in putting the cup in the sack, Joseph lied about who he was, and he lied about making them slaves if they did not follow his instructions. This is very true. Now, is lying a sin? Yes, Im sure you would agree with me on that from the perspective of scripture, yes, no? So, what would be worse, lying or committing divination? According to revelation all liars shall have their place in lake of fire so lying would be just as equally serious as this divination then right? But Joseph did not go to hell. So, what then do you make of this?
But, you also cannot be for sure that Joseph did not use this cup for divination either. You cannot be sure of this, you assume this, you cannot get that from the passages themselves, they dont provide that detail. But, it does say HE DID use the cup for divination, but was that a lie or was that the truth? Bummer the detail is not there.

Even though this had been expressly forbidden by God, and Samuel himself had been the enemy of such people as the one to whom Saul went. In fact, he put on a cloak so no one would recognize him--Saul did it in secret, because he knew it was forbidden!

Saul did not disguise himself because HE was afraid; he disguised himself because he knew the medium would be afraid. I think that is clear from the passage as one reads it.

You're accusing God Himself of necromancy, of manipulating the spirits of the dead through black magic, of speaking with people over whom He has the authority to raise back to life and to destroy utterly? Do you realize that this is actually blasphemy?

There you go again with the words black magic. Im not referring to anything being black here. Necromancy is talking to the spirits of the dead, thats all. There is nothing black or white, just talking to the spirits of the dead, nothing more. Did Jesus talk to Moses and Elijah on the mountain? Yes, were Moses and Elijah dead? Yes, even if you dont believe Elijah was dead, its irrelevant, Moses was dead, and that fulfills the definition of necromancy.

And I suppose every appearance of a deceased Saint to a person also falls under the category of necromancy?

Absolutely.

Do you even know what a medium is? Or do you think that God is dead?

4. (Spirituality, New Age, Astrology & Self-help / Alternative Belief Systems) a person supposedly used as a spiritual intermediary between the dead and the living

Medium, mediator, someone who stands in the gap or middle of two parties, that is all it is. Whether its someone in the middle of two people in the flesh, or someone in the middle of someone in the flesh and someone in the spirit realm, either way, its someone standing in the middle to convey a message back and forth. Or someone who is just talking to the dead, but not conveying a message to someone else in the physical world, perhaps their just talking to them by themselves. Its just a variation.

That is not how it is used in English. Even cognates can have different nuances.

Im not concerned how its used in English so much, Im concerned what it meant in the Hebrew and greek scriptures. And the origin of the formal word itself came from. This is a quote from Wikipedia Divination (from Latin divinare "to foresee, to be inspired by a god".

This gets into the Orthodox teaching of theosis. You should look it up sometime; I think you'd like it.

Actually, back in ancient times, there was no distinction between astronomy (the study of the movement of heavenly bodies as is done in science today) and astrology (trying to figure out how stars influenced the world). They knew of a prophecy regarding the stars and a king, and when they saw it being fulfilled, they went to check it out, letting the prophesied star be their guide.

There was atheists back in ancient times just as there is today, and the atheists would not believe in astrology, but only astronomy. But, regardless of that, you just admitted that the magi did astrology. Nice. Now when they went to check out this star how did they FIND that star? And then how did they follow it to come over the manger? All of that finding out would have been done by their occult means. Here is what the greek lexicon says about the word magi a magus, the name given by the Babylonians (Chaldeans), Medes, Persians, and others, to the wise men, teachers, priests, physicians, astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, augers, soothsayers, sorcerers etc. the oriental wise men (astrologers) who, having discovered by the rising of a remarkable star that the Messiah had just been born, came to Jerusalem to worship him, a false prophet and sorcerer. The word magus means magic.

So now a miracle of God is falling into the same category as black magic?

There you go again with this black magic thing. I did not say Jesus and peter when they levitated that it was black, you assumed that. Im saying what they did IN FORM is no different then what some occultists will do as well. So its not a SIN to do this, provided you dont do it by the devil, then youre ok. And NO, this was not ONLY a miracle of God; this was a teaching of faith. If God was the one doing this whole thing, peter would not have sunk, but indeed he did sink.

Jollybear · Jul 22, 2013

Passage about the power of faith=/=passage about telekinesis.

Ignorance is never bless, to do telekinesis TAKES faith, but what is FAITH? It definitely does not mean BELIEVE the mountain will move and it will. No, I can say all day long in my head “the mountain will move, the mountain will move” it will NEVER move doing something stupid like that. What I am getting at here is, what Jesus talked about that we can do, telekinesis is the same form of what Jesus talked about. In context, Jesus was not saying God moves it for you; he is talking as if we have this ability. Telekinesis is just a word, but it’s doing the same THING, moving an object or withering a fig tree or whatever. I know from experience, that when you meditate and do “energy work” by moving energy through your body with your mind or imagination, you then start to physically FEEL energy flowing through your hands, arms, body, everywhere you imagine it moving. Well, moving energy outside your body, would just be another LEVEL of the SAME thing. And everyone can PROVE this for themselves just by doing 3 to five minutes of energy work just on the tip of their finger. Imagine either poking your finger with pins on all sides, or imagine wind flowing in and out of your finger on all sides, at the tip, do that for 3 to 5 minutes and your finger will start pulsating. It’s very simple, no, it’s not the devil, don’t worry. It’s simply something the mind can do, don’t believe me? Do the test 3 to 5 minutes, it’s EASY and quite amazing to find out. To cause the pulsating sensations for the whole arm, now that may take 15 minutes, but I can’t help but think about what Jesus said in relation to moving the mountain with the imagery of the mustard seed. If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, what is he saying here? That faith, imagination, imagery, becoming one with the object to move it, takes time or cultivation, like a seed.

Where does it say that? Wiki says this about the word "sorcery":

Likewise, sorcery was taken in ca. 1300 from Old French sorcerie, which is from Vulgar Latin *sortiarius, from sors "fate", apparently meaning "one who influences fate".
sorcery - definition of sorcery by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
sorcerythe art, practices, or spells of a person who is supposed to exercise supernatural powers through the aid of evil spirits; black magic; witchery. — sorcerer, n. — sorcerous, adj.
See also: Magic
So no, "casting lots" is not sorcery.

Here is a quote from this source “sorcery, From the Latin sortiarius, a person who casts lots, or one who tells the lot of others.” http://wordinfo.info/unit/3568

And it's very strongly condemned by St. Paul. "Acts of the flesh" means "acts of sinful passions".

Yea it’s condemned, but what exactly is Paul condemning here? He is not condemning meditating for the purpose of self inducing an OBE, he is condemning taking drugs and worshiping idols (Pharmakeia, that’s what it means).

As the word is commonly used today, "occult" means such things as sorcery, black magic, necromancy, mediums, and all those other things that God frowns upon.

God doesn’t frown on these things, he only frowns on using them the wrong way. Now that said, I would like to make a point about this “black” magic thing you keep bringing up. There is white magic and black magic. But really, both of those magic are the same, just one is white because it has a loving or kind motive behind it and one is black because the person doing it has an evil or angry motive. But both forms of magic, black and white, is someone manipulating energy in order to do something. White magic is manipulating energy in order to let’s say heal someone’s body; black magic on the other hand is manipulating energy in order to cast hurt on someone’s body. But both forms of magic are just manipulating that energy, it’s the INTENTION of the individual that is either black or white, but as for the energy itself, it’s not black, nor white, it’s just energy. Same with OBE’s, it’s not black nor white, it’s just an OBE. It’s what you do with it that can either be black or white. Sorta like your watergun vs shotgun analogy. The gun is not good or evil, the person using it can be good or evil.

"Gay" originally meant "happy," but now it just means homosexual.

That very well may be, but still someone can use a word to mean something that his culture does not mean by the same word.

"Occult" may have originally just meant "hidden knowledge", but now it means something far more sinister. The meanings of words change overtime.

Ok, I’m just using the word occult to mean hidden knowledge, nothing more sinister.

No it doesn't. The hidden manna means the

heavenly banquet, the rewards of Heaven.

Physical food your saying? Does our spirit or soul need physical food? I think this is spiritual food, which is knowledge. Look at revelation 10:9 John eats a scroll. Also John 6:41 Jesus says he is the bread from heaven, he is the Word. So, this manna is knowledge, the knowledge of God. So this is hidden manna, hidden knowledge (occult). But even if you don’t buy this, still, look at second peter 3:18 it says grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus. Ok, well those who are not IN Jesus, they can’t grow in that knowledge, so that would mean that knowledge is hidden from them (occult). You are not getting out of this, I’ll flash my sword (scripture) left right and centre (passages).

This is the kind of argument that people used to try and twist Christianity into being some kind of mystery cult. The meanings of parables weren't kept secret. Christianity is not some Gnostic cult, we always reveal knowledge to all.

Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light.
"Mysteries" are not obscure intellectual thoughts, but the presence of the Kingdom of God which cannot be defined. A person's unwillingness to understand Christ's parables is due to a rejection of His Kingdom. The people don't understand because they don't want to, not because they can't.

I agree with this point half way, but just because I agree with it does not do away with the fact that there is hidden knowledge from God’s side of the kingdom (which fulfills the definition of occult). Just because it will BECOME unhidden does not make it not NOW hidden in some forms of it. Also, mysteries, I do think they are obscure intellectual thoughts, sometimes.

Jollybear · Jul 22, 2013

Shiranui117 said:
God doesn't say "You can do them, but do them with me instead of demons". He says, "Don't do them, they are abominable to Me."

I dont think its that cut and dry, Satan mimics or perverts everything God does, he does not come up with anything of his OWN. Before Lucifer sinned, he had ALL of this knowledge, where did he get all this stuff? Not from himself, it was from God he got it. Astrology, sorcery, divination, list goes on, he got all of that knowledge from God, but when he fell, he perverted everything, he did not come up with anything original of his own. Sorcery is not an original creation of Satan, its from God, Satan just has perverted it, but the perverted version is not God, Gods stuff is not perverted. So Satan mimics God, just perverts whats off God. Your giving the devil too much glory there, dont you think? He cannot come up with anything of his own.

But playing along here with your point, let me ask you this: WHY are these things abominable to God?

Knowledge relating to salvation (i.e. the important kind of knowledge) is never forbiddden.

True, but some knowledge is hidden.

Okay, and?

And my point is, occult means hidden knowledge, with regards to Gods kingdom some of it is hidden knowledge, and we are to seek and search for that hidden knowledge.

We've already been over this, and I've already refuted this one.

I dont think you have. Elisha saying his heart being with gahazi does not mean he will know what gahazi did. My heart could be with my family in Canada, does that mean I know what their doing in their day to day lives? Obviously not. But Elisha knew what gahazi was doing, his spirit was actually with him. Either that or he was clairvoyant, meaning having a clear vision.

It was a vision, not an OBE.

Oh no, the one with Ezekiel is not a vision in just the minds eye. Ezekiel is taken by the hair of his head by Gods hand, taken up between earth and heaven. That was not a vision, THEN after this, it says in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem. Vision just means to see. Plus, even if this was not a OBE, then it would easily fulfill the definition of clairvoyant.

How do you NOT see the difference between necromancy, black magic, sorcery vs. visions, prophets and dreams sent by God? You are basically saying that if some things are evil, then God is evil and the author of evil, and no better than Satan. How do you not see the danger of this? How do you not see the spiritual ruin that results from this kind of thinking?

How do you not see that you are glorifying the devil either above or equally with God by saying he came up with something completely of his own making apart from God and apart from a God given knowledge of things he had before he fell? Is that sort of thinking not spiritual ruin? Is that sort of thinking not dangerous? Satan has perverted the things of God, he has not come up with anything of his own, like sorcery, divination, list goes on. Where did Lucifer learn those things at? Everything he learnt and received came from God, nothing came from himself, the only thing he can do is pervert, he cannot make his own structures.

Also I am not saying God is evil or the author of evil (evil being the perversion). I am saying why cherry pick on a few words, why not cherry pick on the rest? Here is what youre doing; youre throwing the baby out with the dirty bath water.

What is your point? There is no true necromancy, no true sorcery, and no true magic.

Yes, there is a true and there is a false. Let me quote Jeremiah again in 14:14 it says Then the Lord said to me, The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds. This implies there are true prophets as well as false, true visions as well as false, true divinations as well as false, true God as well as false idols.

Tell me, is there such a thing as evil necromancy and good necromancy? Just because something is evil doesn't mean it has a good form.

Yes, it has to have a good form and here is why: Satan cannot make anything original, if he could, then we could say that what he made is evil and there can be NO good form of it. But every structure Satan builds, its built from things from God, he just perverts the things that God has already made and given, whether that is knowledge, wisdom, or anything else.

Also, we must distinguish prophecy from divination--divination being things such as augury. In this case, Ezekiel 13:7 is clearly referring to false prophecies.

Ezekiel 13:7 did not mention the word prophesy, it mentioned the word divination in it. But yea, of course these prophets would be prophesying to and they would be false prophecies, of course, but still, it mentions the word divination. My point about this passage is they see false visions (this implies there are true visions that exist) and they utter lying divinations (this implies that truthful divinations exist). Its like this, let me illustrate. Some churches think prophets dont exist TODAY, they think it was done away with after the apostles, and they cite where Jesus said and many false prophets will appear and deceive Matthew 24:24. But is this saying ALL prophets (as in all true prophets) will cease to be? Of course not; you cant have a false without a true. If he meant ALL prophets would be false and no true prophets would be around, he would not have said and many false prophets he would have said and all prophets will appear and deceive. Why would he say that? Because thats exactly what we would need to hear in order to know what to listen to. But he said, many false prophets would appear, that means he is telling us we still need to be careful because he still wants us to listen to the TRUE prophets. The same thing is going on here in Ezekiel. The people know there are true visions, true prophets, true divinations and that is why they are listening to these prophets, they just happen to be deceived in listening to the wrong ones, so Ezekiel, a true one, corrects them. Anytime we use the word false or bad, we are implying there is a good. If I were to say to you dont eat that bread on the counter, its bad am I saying ALL bread is bad? of course not, I am saying only THAT bread is bad. If Ezekiel believed all divination was bad, why would he say lying divination? Why would he not just say divination? The people would understand what he meant. He would have meant all divination was a lie. When Ezekiel says they see false visions the same thing is implied here, there are true visions, he is not saying ALL visions are false, just that THOSE visions are false. And you concede this part, but when it comes to the divination part, you cherry pick on that.

Jollybear · Jul 22, 2013

Alright, and? Prophecy=/=augury.

Explain a little more?

No you can't. Your slippery slope fallacy doesn't work here; you can't compare augury (something God expressly forbids) to prayer and fasting and giving to the poor that God over and over explicitly COMMANDS us to do.

Try to avoid slippery slope fallacies. All you're doing is saying that there's no difference between good or evil, no difference between sin or righteousness, no difference between moral and immoral, no difference between wicked or holy.

God expressly forbids it within a certain context, he does not forbid all of it. Yes, there is a difference between good and evil, false and true, holy and unholy. There is a GOOD sorcery and a BAD sorcery, there is a GOOD OBE and a BAD OBE, there is a GOOD divination and a BAD divination, there is a GOOD astrology and a BAD astrology. There is a good necromancy and a bad one. So, there is a difference between all the bad and good ones.

So you think we can grow spiritually entirely on our own without any help whatsoever from God or those who have been called by God to be teachers? Yes, we have our own part to play, but we do indeed receive instruction from the Holy Spirit, and from those who are teachers and spiritual fathers/mothers in the Church.

Oh, I dont doubt the Holy Spirit gives instruction and help and there are teachers whom we can benefit from, absolutely. But this passage in Hebrews about training the senses, it says we train our selves, fasting does not train the sense, prayer does not train it, obeying the commands does not train it, none of that would make any sense.

That's not how the word "clairvoyancy" is used... Clairvoyancy typically refers to mediums and the like.

Your incorrect, here is a source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clairvoyant clair means clear and voyant means vision, so, clear vision. Thats what it means. God gives clear visions and that fulfills the definition of clairvoyant, that means there is a TRUE or GOOD kind of clairvoyant. Also the word clairvoyant is not mention in the bible either. So this is another example where youre saying God condemns something that he did not condemn.

Jollybear · Jul 22, 2013

Shiranui117 said:
It doesn't change anything. "Leb" still overwhelmingly refers to "heart". You can compare it to the Orthodox Christian usage of "heart". There's a reason that "leb" was translated as "kardia" into the Greek Septuagint.

My heart can be with my wife at work, that does not mean I know what she is doing there. My heart can be with my family in Canada, that does not mean I know what they’re doing either. So, Elisha knew what gahazi was doing, that is more than just his heart being with him. Ever heard the expression “I’m with you heart and soul” meaning, I agree with you and am for you and care about you. It does not mean knowing what the other is doing.

It doesn't say that St. John PUT HIMSELF into the Spirit. It means that the Holy Spirit came upon John, and he went into a visionary ecstasy. John was in the HOLY Spirit, he didn't go into an OBE.

All it says is that he was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, it does not say HOW he got in the Spirit. And in chapter 4, it talks about the voice from heaven saying come up here, and then he is in the spirit and sees one sitting on a thrown. This looks like he is caught up to heaven (OBE). But, here is two other passages that imply we can put OURSELVES in the Spirit. Ezekiel 47:3-6 talks about the river flowing from the temple, a person could go ankle deep, knee deep, waist deep, or up or over the head deep. You can walk IN the river, or you can stay on the bank of the river. The river, is the Holy Spirit, Jesus said that the Spirit was like a river of living water. Now look at what John 4:23-24 says “Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” Now notice the words, these are the kind of worshipers the father SEEKS. Well if God was the one that put us always in the Spirit, why would he SEEK for this TYPE of worshiper? That would make no sense. Also notice the instruction “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit” so Jesus is here giving instruction to us the reader to DO this. So, WE got to DO this and put ourselves IN the Spirit. We got to worship IN the Spirit.

God blesses us with certain gifts. Not all people will obtain all gifts. And the Holy Spirit comes upon those who embrace Him--namely, when one is baptized.

So you’re saying in essence God is not always willing to give his gifts in other words. I disagree with this. I think God is always willing to give his gifts and ALL of them. The thing is, we just have to align ourselves in order to receive them or channel them.

You can get yourself drunk by yourself. You can't get yourself filled with the Holy Spirit by yourself; you need God with that.

True, we do need God to get filled with the Holy Spirit, but the difference between what you’re saying and what I’m saying is, I believe God is ALWAYS willing to bestow his gifts, you think God is SOMETIMES willing, when he deems FIT to give them, regardless even if the person has aligned themselves with God. That’s why Paul could so easily say in a commanding sense “BE filled with the Spirit” why could he say it like that? Because he KNEW God was always willing to fill us with his Spirit, all we have to do is align ourselves. So basically BY US aligning ourselves, it’s almost as IF we WER filling ourselves with the Spirit, yet we are not directly doing so, it’s God directly filling us.

Because there is such a thing as sin, and God has nothing to do with sin. Remember my analogy about "cooperating" with God in killing people? Do you really think the Holy Spirit guides us into sin? No. We disobey Him, and He has no part in our sins He is there to guide us OUT of sin, but God never leads us into sin, or prompts us to sin. The Holy Spirit is not willing to guide us in that which is against His nature--that is, sin. I really hope you'll start to understand this concept.

Ok, let me ask the question another way. You concede that the Holy Spirit SOMETIMES gives people an OBE, well, that means in essence OBE’s are not sin, because you just said the Holy Spirit will not guide or lead you into sin. So now, if the Holy Spirit as you say is ALWAYS willing to guide us in prayer and obeying the laws of God, and so on, why is he not ALWAYS willing to guide us/lead us in OBE’s? In other words, why do you cherry pick?

Because we shouldn't self-induce OBE's anymore than we should work black magic under God's guidance.

Oh but wait, you concede that sometimes God gives OBE’s to people, so OBE’s are not sinful/black magic/ sorcery/evil because if they WER then God would not give them to people because that would mean God would be giving them sorcery and making them do black magic, which would be sinful right?

But we never do it alone. We always do it with God's help. My worry here is that you're falling into Pelagianism, the idea hat we can save ourselves by ourselves.

Right, we don’t do it alone, we are like a little child depending and humbling ourselves before our Father, but we do play our part, which is independent of God. We are not saving ourselves directly, God is. But look at this scripture here acts 2:40 he says save yourselves, I know God saves us, but here he is saying save yourselves, of course he means indirectly.

I cherrypick because God cherrypicks the same way.

No, God is not inconsistent, so why do you cherry pick?

How does having an OBE sharpen your meditation techniques? And why should I ignore the methods sanctioned by God, the methods that are a part of the life of the Church and have been for centuries, for methods that He has not expressly sanctioned, and which are foreign to the life of the Church?

Having a self induced OBE sharpens your meditation techniques because it takes a lot of meditation to induce it. I’m not saying ignore the methods God spoke of in scripture, by no means. I already mentioned that you can PRAY when you’re out of your body.

Drug addiction isn't forbidden in the Bible either. Drunkenness is forbidden, but not drug addiction. How do you explain that? Is drug addiction therefore not a sin because nothing in the Bible says it is?

Oh no, that point won’t work because drugs ARE mentioned in the bible. Gelatians 5:20 which talks of the acts of the flesh, one of them being witchcraft, the word witchcraft there is in the greek “pharmakeia” and it means the use or administering of drugs. So, yes the bible does speak against using drugs. But, I don’t want to side step your point, I do GET your point, your point is just because the bible does not speak against something, does not mean it can’t be a sin. And to that I concede to be true, SOMETIMES. Depends on what it is. But at the same time, we have to be careful we don’t do what the Pharisees did by adding all kinds of restrictions to God’s laws. Then again, we also have to be careful we don’t try to step over God’s boundaries or try to stretch them and play with his laws either. Theirs two wrong extremes, but then ALSO, we have to understand the principle of loving God and being at liberty because if we’re not careful with that, then we can bind ourselves in a bondage state. Anyway, to your point, just because the bible does not speak against self inducing an OBE, does not mean it’s not a sin, that is your point, I get it. Also just because the bible does not speak for self inducing an OBE does not mean it’s ok to go ahead and do it, I also get it. But here is my point, if GOD sometimes gives people an OBE, then that PROVES that God does not consider it to be a SIN. Now if you say self inducing it is a sin, then that would mean OBE’s are a sin, so if God induces it for you, then God would be making you sin, you get it? Is the light bulb flicking on yet?

Now, I have work, but afterwards I'll address the rest of your posts.

Hold tight, and until then, peace and God bless!

Thanks, God bless you too.

Jollybear · Jul 22, 2013

Shiranui117 said:
First off Jollybear, I realized that some of my comments in previous posts came across as unnecessarily angry on my part, so I apologize to you for that. I've edited those, and will take care to be more civil in the future. My humble apologies again.

Its perfectly ok, but on an intellectual level, I have a question, perhaps your anger was not even a sin, because I was not offended how you worded it, and the reason I was not offended is because I understand your passion for the subject. So since I was not offended, could it be that your anger toward me was not sinful? Because sometimes anger in the bible was not sinful, look at Jesus with the whip and turning tables? But regardless, apology accepted. It shows a lot of character to apologize too.

Because it's not our call whether we go there freely or not. It's God's domain, it's His call who can visit and who can't. He decides who will experience Heaven at the Last Judgement, and He decides who can visit the place itself.

Let me put it this way. If we are born of God, adopted into his family, he is our Father, we are his sons/daughters, think of that for a moment. Let that sink in, we are not a servant only, we are not a slave, we are not a worker only, we are not just a friend, we are a child of God. Now if a servant came into the kings presence without an invite, that COULD incur death unless the king extended his scepter. Now, in the case of the kings child, if his child ran into his throne room boldly, do you not think the king would ALWAYS extend his scepter WITHOUT even a second thought? Of course he would. The bible says we can approach God freely, we can come boldly to the throne of God (wheres his thrown? heaven).

Also if it is our call to go freely where we wish on earth (china, Russia, Canada, united states, list goes on) why are we free to roam the earth, but not free to roam heaven and the spirit world? Both are Gods creation equally. And we are spirit and earth beings equally. You say its Gods domain, yea, but so is the earth Gods domain, but yet you concede we are free to roam this place, but not the spirit realm, why the inconsistency?

I commend you for knowing that the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the New--many Christians don't understand this. I also commend you for trying to use typology, which was one of the Fathers' favorite methods of Biblical exegesis. I also commend you for correctly identifying Egypt as this sinful world, and Canaan being a type of Heaven. All of this is very commendable, and I give props to you for all of it.

However, your analogy still doesn't work (if we interpret Canaan as Heaven the place/domain of God, rather than Heaven the state/joyous reaction to God's Love and Presence), because the Hebrews had to wander in the desert of Sinai. The desert of Sinai is the life of faith--this life, before we die. We cannot simply fly from Egypt to Canaan, we have to wander through the desert first before we get to Canaan. And finally, we must cross the Jordan--the Jordan being our death as we go down into the waters, and also our resurrection as we come out. The Red Sea is our baptism, the Jordan is our bodily death and resurrection. Only after our death and resurrection do we come into Canaan, or rather, Heaven.
Your use of typology was good, and your conclusions were SO CLOSE to being absolutely perfect! Next time, remember to include the history into your typology.

Your right, I did not provide a few details in the typology, such as what you said, the Israelites going through the desert before getting into Canaan. However, you also missed something as well. Numbers 13 talks about certain men going up into the land of Canaan BEFORE all the Israelites went in, they went there to visit and map it out, before the actual going in there to STAY. And, it was not just done once, it was done again in Joshua 18. Also, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob also were in Canaan land, then went to Egypt and then came back to Canaan land at different times. So, this part of the typology shows that we can move about freely within the lands, that is visit heaven in other words, visit the spirit realm in other words, that is to say, another piece of land. Not all land was the same.

It's just about impossible to have demons attack you because you're standing over a skillet cooking some eggs. OBE's are a very different matter.

Demons will be like look boys, I smell eggs and bacon frying, lets go steel his breakfast and eat it front of him!

Im kidding. But seriously, youre making a statement, true its a different activity, but how does one projecting out of body cause you to be attacked by the devil, but frying eggs or just staying in the body cause you not to be attacked by the devil? How is it that remaining in the body is armor, but being outside the body is taking armor off? Why do you think this body is armor? Why do you think demons cannot attack or do their dealings in this physical world as well? Remember the bible says that the devil is the god of this world so that should tell you he can do things just as easy while youre in the body.

For our own safety. I've seen people over and over who told their stories about trying to self-induce out-of-body experiences and becoming terrorized by demons to the point where they wanted to kill themselves. Satan is the prince of the powers of the air. That's the domain we enter when we self-induce OBE's. When God Himself causes us to have an OBE, He directs the experience and keeps us away from that realm, or safe from its inhabitants--and instead keeps us either on earth or gives us a glimpse of Heaven, or shows us the demons that lurk in the aerial realm, AKA the "astral realm," that we may know against whom we struggle. As Ive said, there's a reason that most OBE's are involuntary, and caused by God. There are doors that we simply should not open.

This is another cherry picking. You cite experiences where people self induced OBEs who got terrorized by demons, but do you not realize there are also other instances of self induced OBEs where the people are NOT terrorized? Also on top of this, dont you realize demons can terrorize you while IN the body? Also on top of that, dont you realize just because a demon tries to terrorize you, that does not mean YOUR sinning, it means the demon doing the terrorizing is the one sinning? You need to stand your ground when a demon seeks to terrorize you, not RUN from it. Lets go back to the typology, the Israelites cross Jordan to enter Canaan land, they had to fight the Canaanites with their swords, they had to stand their ground, not run from them. Just because the Canaanites (giants, type of demons) tried to terrorize the Israelites, does not mean the Israelites sinned, they would have sinned if they ran, not stood and fought.

Jollybear · Jul 22, 2013

Well, there's Leviticus 18 which condemns sorcery.

I think you meant to say Leviticus 19:26-31. To this I have two points, first is this: I had asked you to give me a scripture that shows God restricts us having OBEs and you provided Leviticus 19:26-31 which talks about divination, sorcery, wizardry. Ok, if OBEs are sorcery/divination/wizardry/spiritism then why does God in one breath forbid sorcery/divination/wizardry/spiritism then in the next turn sometimes give people an OBE, that is to say, give them sorcery/divination/wizardry/spiritism?

Also my next point is this: How is an OBE sorcery/divination/wizardry/spiritism? You provided this scripture against having OBEs, but this scripture does not expressly forbid having an OBE, it just forbids sorcery/divination/wizardry/spiritism. So how do you interpret these as being OBEs?

Also my next point is this: in verse 27 right under where it forbids divination and sorcery, it then forbids clipping off the hair on the sides of your head and the edges of your beard. Well, if divination is all that bad, all the time, then why isnt trimming your beard and hair evil ALL the time? You see, there is an obvious context to all of this; divination is not evil all the time, no more than trimming your beard is evil all the time. There is a layered context to this. And if you want to say divination(OBEs) are evil all the time, then why not say trimming your beard is evil all the time?

God commands us to pray. He does not command us to self-induce OBE's. That's the difference.

God does not command me to make eggs for breakfast, he does not command me to go to the gym, he does not command me to go on vacation to the mountains of South Carolina, he does not command me to go to the beach, he does not command me to go talk to that person over there, he does not command me to go for a hike on that trail, he does not command me to sit on the couch as I put my laptop on my lap, or put it on the coffee table instead. He does not command me to walk into the kitchen and fill up my water bottle. He does not command me to do this or that, but we are still free by God to do all those things, why not so with an OBE? Yea God commands us to pray with our will, but then your saying he does not command us to have OBEs, just to have them when he gives them, but just because he does not command us to have them, does not mean we cant have them.

I've cleaned out and plunged some nasty toilets in my life--oftentimes those nasty toilets being my own fault! But I've seen some REALLY bad ones at work that I've had to wipe up...

What part of your tongue are you brushing that would make you puke? The only way that'd be possible is if you hit the very back part of your mouth near the flap...
Actually, believe it or not, I've puked before and felt a million times better.

Well if you have a virus and you puke, then its good for you, but if you puke without having a virus, such as when my wife brushed her tongue to far back and then puked because of it, that is not good for you. It wont KILL you, but its not good for you, and whatever is not good for you, is dangerous for you. So any mundane thing in the physical world can be dangerous, you dont have to be in the spirit realm for that.

I assume you're looking at this empirically/scientifically. In which case I'd concede. Spiritually, there's no such categorization.

Agreed.

Jollybear · Jul 22, 2013

Shiranui117 said:
God can judge others, but we cannot. Does this mean that God sins when he judges people, since it's a sin for us to do the same? No. If God gives us an OBE, we're not doing it ourselves, we're not breaking God's laws, and God isn't making us break His laws. God never overrides our free will and forces us to sin. Just as it's sinful for us to judge because it's not our place to do so, it's not our place to induce OBE's, but God's place.

When it comes to God judging others, its NOT hypocritical FOR A REASON, the reason being that when God judges them, he KNOWS everything in their minds, hearts and lives, and he is perfectly holy and their not, so he therefore since he knows all and is perfectly holy, and is the authority of the universe, all of these reasons give him the RIGHT to judge them WITHOUT hypocrisy. THAT is why we CANNOT judge them because we do not know everything in their mind, heart and life, and because we are not perfectly holy just like theyre not, and that is why we cannot judge. But in the case of OBEs, this does not compare, because you see, if an OBE is a sin, then God would be making some people sin by giving them an OBE. Plus, you have not shown how OBEs are against the laws of God. So if they are a sin, and God makes some people have them, then God would be creating a double standard (hypocrisy) and God does not do that. But your saying self inducing an OBE is a sin, but when God induces it for you its not a sin, but still, that is a double standard, God does not create double standards, its either a sin or its not.

Because that's not murder.

God allowed incest among the first humans in Genesis according to the Bible, too. That doesn't mean that incest is allowable, but He had to make do with what He had. His standards for the Israelites )even after giving the Mosaic Law) were extremely low; His standards for the Canaanites were even lower. God used the Israelites to execute judgement upon the Canaanites, and vice-versa.

God was making due with what he had? No, God does not have to make due, if it was wrong in the eyes of God for incest to take place with adam and eves sons and daughters, then God would not have given them the command to be fruitful, but he did. If it was wrong, God would have made another adam and eve race sorta speak to intermarry with the other adam and eve race of humans, that way incest would not have to occur. But scripture does not show clearly that he did that(although theres an interpretation that says he did), so therefore incest was not a sin for adam and eves sons and daughters. But why? Theirs ALWAYS a reason with God. Its NEVER hypocrisy or double standard, its always a reason for protection. But apparently adam and eves sons/daughters did not need protection? Why, its my theory that incest from Adam and eves sons/daughters did not make retarded babies, the bodies of mankind BEFORE the flood of Noah and the atmosphere of nature before the flood of Noah was different, people lived on average 8 to 900 years old, their bodies would not have produced retarded babies for some reason, and its my theory that reason had to do with the power of their bodies were different than ours are today. That is why God NOW says AFTER the flood in the laws of Moses, do not have sex with a family member, because he knows what it will do, based on the degeneration of the power of the human body that took place after the flood. But, if you dont want to go with that paradigm, then we can say God made another race of humans to intermarry with adam and eves seed, that way incest would not occur, bang, either paradigm answers this question. So you cant compare it to an OBE now, DONE.

How is it off?

I showed how it was off, by showing the analogy of prayer is better suited to a friend speaking to his friend who happens to be his king or a child speaking to his father who happens to be the king. And if anything, the bible says put on the armor of God, taking up the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. This could be the gun sorta speak, but the sword is the same whether we are in or out of the body. Swords are dangerous, but not for us, but for the devil. And yes the sword can be dangerous for us if we use it wrong.

Self-induced OBE's are not sunshine and daisies. The analogy you make is better suited to freeing ourselves from sin and growing into the light of grace.

Ok, Ill give you that one, but I have a better analogy then, its based on second Corinthians 5. The analogy goes like this: I live in a tent (the body), but every morning I can get up and leave the tent if I want and then come back to the tent to dwell in. I can put on clothes in the morning and then later on in the evening take them off; the body is an outer clothing for the soul. There, gotcha. You wont be able to get out of this one.

Does going to the gym allow for visual demonic attacks?

No it doesnt, but it does not matter, it still poses dangers going to the gym, but does that mean we should not go? No, we should still go. Likewise so what if demons visually attack you? Whether they attack you visually through you inducing an OBE or not, they are going to attack you every day off your life regardless whether its visual or non visual, whether its emotional or non emotional, whether its spiritual or physical, whether its through your mind or not, whether its through a person or not, whether its financially or not. Just because the devil attacks you visually, so what? Does that mean we run from him? No, we stand our ground and fight him. Whether he attacks us visually or not, it dont matter because he is going to attack us one way or another no matter what we do. It almost sounds like your blaming those who induce OBEs for being attacked by the devil, why blame them? Blame the devil, he is the one doing the attacking. If you seen someone walk in the grocery store and then someone came along and attacked him and tried to steel his wallet, but he was not successful at steeling it, would you blame the person who was a target of the attack for being attacked or would you blame the attacker for doing this evil deed? Of course you would blame the attacker, not the attacked, likewise, why would it be any different in this case, why blame the self inducer of an OBE for being attacked by the devil, blame the devil.

Jollybear · Jul 22, 2013

Does eating food cause a fear so profound that people wanted to kill themselves to escape it?

Hey, it’s not the devils fault they fear him, it’s their fault, it’s their responsibility to exercise courage and faith and love and stand firm and fight and call on God in order to overcome their fear. It’s the devils fault for attacking them; it’s their fault if they run in fear.

Is a sheep being welcomed into a wolf's den and even being treated well by the wolves for a time not in danger?

The spirit world is NOT the wolfs den, Satan does NOT OWN the spirit realm, I repeat, he does NOT own the spirit realm. Also, not everyone who self induces an OBE is going to be stupid by following a wolf or even a wolf in sheep’s clothing, an angel of light, they are going to be careful and discerning.

The sheep may say to his brothers, "I'm fine, this place is actually quite nice! Look at my hospitable new friends!" But does that mean, therefore, that the sheep won't eventually be terrorized, overcome and devoured?

That’s where we discern the spirits in the spirit realm. Plus, if we just pray to God in that realm and venture in the spirit world itself without interacting at all with ANY spirits, then were safe, but even if we do interact with spirits, we DISCERN. “Test the spirits”. Remember the test? What is the spirits confessions, plans, agenda’s? What fruit do they bear? Also remember, we are not just a “sheep” we are “solders” in that realm. Solders with ARMOR and that armor is not the biological body.

Physical danger pales in comparison to spiritual danger. Granted, we shouldn't place ourselves willingly into any kind of danger. But walking on a trail with the threat of slipping and falling is like a walk through a field of flowers compared to opening oneself up to demonic attack.

I concede physical danger pales in comparison to spiritual danger, I will agree with you on that and that is why I take this debate seriously and is why I appreciate your responses and feedback, because I need you as a check and balance for myself, but at the same time, even though I agree there are spiritual dangers, I have yet to see the intense danger that you think is there. I concede dangers are there, but not as much as you THINK. Yes, as much as you think IF we throw out all discernment, but if we don’t throw that out, the danger is not as intense. Also we are not opening ourselves up to demonic attack. Self inducing an OBE is not opening up to demonic attack, it’s opening ourselves to the spirit world, the devil does not own that world, if he did, THEN YEA, we would be opening ourselves up to demonic attack. But demons attack us everyday regardless of what we do. Even if the devil did own the spirit realm, even then inducing an OBE would not be opening up to demonic attack because a solder can go over to enemy territory with his armor on and fight him, now if he threw off all his armor, then he would be OPENING himself up to demonic attack. We only open ourselves up to demonic attack by trusting the devil, and do I trust the devil by inducing an OBE? NO of course not. You can trust the devil remaining in your body, in that case you would be opening yourself up to demonic attack.

If God really wanted us to self-induce OBE's, He would have encouraged us to do so.

If God really forbids us from self inducing OBE’s, he would have discouraged us to do so.

Never are we encouraged to perform them.

Never are we discouraged to perform them.

Even the most advanced and mystical types of prayer and spirituality in Orthodox Christianity have an incredibly strong Biblical basis, deriving their source from exhortations and encouragements of God. We do not see this same amount of support for OBE's, merely twisting passages out of context and trying to redefine several clear Biblical terms and phrases.

We don’t see any discouragement of the practice of OBE’s either. Just because the bible does not INCOURAGE driving cars or building technology and advancing it does that mean those things are bad? It’s no different with OBE’s, just because the bible does not encourage having them, well it makes no difference, it does not encourage advancing technology, nor does it discourage it, but who cares, we know reasonably speaking it’s OK to do it.

Tell me, should I get high on crystal meth because I think it'll help me pray better or praise God?

No, you should not get high on crystal meth, but there are solid good reasons for why I say this, crystal meth is bad for your body, can destroy your health, can mess up your mind, is highly addictive, can destroy your life, take all your money, mess up your relationships, but an OBE does NONE of this too you. So crystal meth does not compare so this is an apples and oranges thing.

Near-death experiences=/=self-induced OBE's through altering our consciousness via meditation or drugs or magic.

That source is incredibly vague without sources. Do you have something a bit more scholarly?

If this is a natural ability everyone has, surely ancient people could and did do this, perhaps not by the droves, but neither do droves of numbers of people do it today either. But it’s not because they can’t, it’s because a lot of people are just mentally lazy or if not lazy, busy with other goals and interests in life. Anyhow, try this source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection#Bible here is another http://www.soul-psychics.com/astral_projection.html in case you don’t like the first source.

I've already addressed this same point numerous times in my other posts.

God doesn't "make us" have OBE's. They just happen to us. They are things that God Himself gives to us under very rare circumstances, on a case-by-case basis.

If God gives an OBE in very rare circumstances, that would mean he is causing it or making it happen to the person. How is God “giving” an OBE to a person without making it happen?

God would not force Adam and Eve into disobeying His command, so your analogy does not work. God dissuades us from self-inducing OBE's because of the danger that we face in doing it ourselves. It's different when God gives us an OBE, because He guides us away from the danger and protects us from it; He is in control when He gives them to us. When we self-induce them, God is not in control, we are. And frankly, no matter how experienced we think we are in the aerial realm, we have no idea what we're actually doing.

Let me show you what you sound like to me. First you say God tells adam and eve not to eat the fruit, that means eating the fruit is sinful, that means God will not under any circumstances make them eat the fruit either, and why? Because first off he commands them not to eat it and secondly, he would not be hypocritical by turning around and making them eat it. But then you say, self inducing OBE’s are sinful, and that God tells us not to do them, but then sometimes under certain rare circumstances God causes or makes them happen to some people. That would be a double standard.

Alright, all finished. That was a lot. If you want to condense my points, feel free. But if you don’t and you respond to all of them, I think the next go around, I’ll have to condense yours if you don’t condense mine first. Because the next go around the posts will become even longer than this one if we don’t condense it at some point.

astral projection is biblical

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