astral projection is biblical

Jollybear said:

When we pray, we are doing so with the act of our own will(which God made for the exercise of freedom) but we are also submitting to God through the act of praying. When we pray, God is not MAKING us pray. Now....when we self induce an OBE through the act of our own will, God is not doing it, he is not making it happen, but through us making it happen, we can ALSO submit to God the experience, i.e "ok God, where would you like me to travel today? Also, i wanna thank you for your protection, your love (fly to the milky way or wherever) and your power is great, i see it in your handy work. Their, we just submitted to God through the experience that we self induced. Just like prayer, we submit to God through the act of prayer that we ourselves did, God did not do. It's the SAME thing. Just with a different endevor. Why is it ok to pray with the act of our will, but it's not ok to OBE with the act of our will? Tell me that one?

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Allow me to take your quote, and change it around a little bit. You'll see where I'm going with this shortly:

"When we pray, we are doing so with the act of our own will(which God made for the exercise of freedom) but we are also submitting to God through the act of praying. When we pray, God is not MAKING us pray. Now....when we murder someone through the act of our own will, God is not doing it, he is not making it happen, but through us making it happen, we can ALSO submit to God the experience, i.e "ok God, who would you like me to murder today? Also, i wanna thank you for your protection, your love (shoot up an office or whatever) and your power is great, i see it in your handy work. Their, we just submitted to God through the experience that we self induced. Just like prayer, we submit to God through the act of prayer that we ourselves did, God did not do. It's the SAME thing. Just with a different endevor. Why is it ok to pray with the act of our will, but it's not ok to kill with the act of our will? Tell me that one?"

Do you see my point? There are good and bad actions. There are things that God smiles upon, and things that He does not. Submitting to God while doing a bad action is not really submitting to God at all, and is not good. Submitting to God while following His commandments is good.

So if i want to pray, i should ask God if he wants to MAKE me pray and if he deems it fit, he will make me pray too? Because, well, if i make myself pray, that's "off doing my own thing without working with God". Same with fasting, same with obeying the commands and the virtues and bible study. God, if you dim it fit that i study your word, please MAKE me study it, haha! If you dim it fit that i should obey your commands, please MAKE me obey them and if you don't make me do so, i won't try to obey them.

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See my loaded shotgun vs. water gun analogy.

When you self induce an OBE, you CAN use it for working WITH God, you don't have to be using it going off doing your own thing, YOU CAN use it for his glory. Like scripture says "whatever you do, do all for the glory of God". As i already said "God, where would you like me to travel today?" Or "how great are the works of your hands" looking at the milky way. Or "God i plan on exposing the fruitless deeds of darkness by flying to the bildeburg meeting or going to area 51 or wherever else." Or "God i want to help my doubting friend by flying to his house and telling him what objects i see on his table".

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You don't need OBE's for any of that. There's more evil in the world than at the Bildeburg meeting. You can help your doubting friend believe in God and come to accept Jesus in countless other ways, like praying for him, be. You don't need to be up in outer space to be in awe of God's creation.

Yes, Adam and Eve already knew right from wrong because God informed them "do not eat of that tree, for the day you do, you shall die"< that makes them KNOW right from wrong. It makes them know why it's wrong "you will die". But, in their case, they wanted to find out for themselves, so they go and eat the fruit. They find out by experience that it's wrong now, they don't find out through information. In this case, it would have been best to find out just through information, not through experience. But in the case of self induced OBE's it's not the same, your comparing apples to oranges, their's no comparison. Because in Adams and eves case we have recorded a direct command not to eat this fruit, in the case of self induced OBE's we don't have a direct command against it.

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We don't have commands against self-induced OBE's because they never happened in the whole of the Bible. It's like expecting the Roman Empire to forbid people from leaving their pet giant pandas tied on a leash to a tree. It just didn't happen, so there's no point in expressly forbidding it.

But self induced OBE's don't "harm" the body. They don't even harm the soul. Also your not comming to knowledge through sin, it's not a sin to self induce an OBE, if it was a sin, then anytime God made someone have an OBE, he would thus be making them sin, and that makes no sense, right? It's equivelant to saying God making adam and eve eat the fruit, so now it's not a sin to eat the fruit, just as long as God makes them do it, but that's silly. If God makes anything happen, then we know it's not a sin period. So, we know OBE's are not sinful.

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God can pass judgement on souls, we cannot. It is a sin for us to pass judgement, because it is not our place; it is God's place. Think about that in relation to OBE's.

By your definition of "going off and doing our own thing" and "self inducing OBE's" it sounds like the act of the will. Ok, well Adam and eve by the act of their will, they refuse to not eat the fruit, ok, that means they are off doing their own thing and self inducing this with their own will, that God gave them. That definition makes ZERO sense, because God gave us a will to exercise with freedom.

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There are good things and bad things. Are you not familiar with the concept of "sin"? We can use our free will for good things and for bad things. Not all exercisings of our free will are good. We can use our free will in a bad way. Refusing to eat from the forbidden tree is following God's command not to do so. It's hardly "going off and doing their own thing". They are being submissive to God and obedient to His commandments. I really don't understand how you're not getting the difference. It really is beyond me.

Here is that post i was going to give you supporting the view that the occult is biblical, i will respond to your other recent posts soon.
Building a case from scripture that occult practice to receive hidden knowledge is not forbidden at all times. The occult is usually a mixture of different things, ranging from divination, levitation, sorcery, astral projection, telekinesis, clairvoyance and the list can go on.
Occult practices are in the bible and their not always condemned by God, to find that out one has to really look carefully at what the text says. Here are some examples from scripture where occult practice lead people to God. Numbers 24:1 “Balaam after seeing it pleased the Lord to bless Israel; he did not resort to using divination as at other times.” Genesis 30:27 “But Laban said to him, “If I have found favor in your eyes, please stay. I have learned by divination that the Lord has blessed me because of you.” If demons were the ones inspiring Laban when he used divination, why would the demons reveal that God was blessing him when that would be shooting themselves in the foot? Genesis 44:5 “Isn’t this the cup my master drinks from and also uses for divination? This is a wicked thing you have done.” Genesis 44:15 “Joseph said to them, “What is this you have done? Don’t you know that a man like me can find things out by divination?” 1 Samuel 28:7 God does not answer Saul by dreams, urim or prophets, but he gets a true message from Samuel through the medium “Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her. There is one in Endor,” they said.” Matthew 17:3 “Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” Jesus talked to two departed spirits, Peter and John seen it, this is the definition of medium and necromancy, talking to the spirits of the dead. Also in 1 Timothy 2:5 says “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus”. So, Jesus was a medium. Also moving along the definition of divination is Latin for “to be inspired by a god”. Well that does not mean parse a false god, because there is a true God and false gods. Now yes it is a little g, but in Psalms 82:6 which Jesus also quotes it says “you are gods, you are all sons of the most high”. So you can be “inspired” by a true god; that is divination by definition. Here is an example of astrologers or stargazers being lead to God through their astrology, Matthew 2:1-2 “After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” Also the word “magi” in the greek there is “magus” and means “wise men, teachers, priests, physicians, astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, augers, soothsayers, sorcerers”, the source to prove it is here http://classic.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3097 . Now levitation is considered an occult practice, but here in Matthew 14:29 it says ““Come,” he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.” Also telekinesis is considered an occult practice, yet Jesus says in Matthew 21:21 “Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.” Casting lots was a form of divination, but yet it was used by men of God in the bible in numerous accounts, Acts 1:26 Joshua 18:10. The word sorcery is latin and means to cast lots with assistance of spirits. Also sorcery or witchcraft in the bible did not always mean extracting hidden knowledge or forbidden knowledge, it meant taking drugs and worshiping idols. Galatians 5:20 that talks about the acts of the flesh, one of them being witchcraft, that word in greek is “pharmakeia” and it means to take drugs and serve idols or false gods, it does not mean doing certain meditative practices with your mind. Here is the greek lexicon in gelatians 5:20 to prove it http://classic.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+5:20&t=str&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1 . Also we need to put things into context. Yes the word “occult” means secret or hidden knowledge. But is that bad? Should we have a prejudice against a word? No, look at revelation 2:17 “Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.” Occult means hidden, the manna in this case means knowledge, so, hidden knowledge. Also Luke 8:10 “He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, “‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.” So, here Jesus talks about knowledge of the secrets, occult means secret knowledge. Also in Deuteronomy 18-13 it says “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God.” The context of this is that these “nations” that practiced these things did so in serving false gods, getting their information from them. Is the bible saying we should not seek hidden knowledge? No, if we get this information from God, or from the spirit realm, it’s ok, but if we get it from demons, well obviously that is not ok. If God is firmly decided to destroy a local people, then God will not want those people to know of it, so they don’t move, so then that would be forbidden knowledge to them, so if a demon revealed it to them, that would mean the demon would be trying to get the people to fight against God’s judgment instead of submitting to his judgment.

1 Kings 22:19:22 is an example where God did not want Ahab to know he would lose the battle because he wanted him destroyed “Then Micaiah answered, “I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the Lord said, ‘These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.’”The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, “Didn’t I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?”Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there? “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him. “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.” So in some cases knowledge is forbidden, but in some cases it’s not. Proverbs 2:1-6 says “My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding—indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.” So here it says we should LOOK for it and SEARCH for it. Also another occult practice is astral projection or OBE, but this is not always forbidden, here are examples 2 Kings 5:26 “But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you?” Ezekiel 8:3 “He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance of the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.” Also 2 Corinthians 12:2 “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.” Also Revelation 4:2 “At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.” So when it comes to knowledge God does not want revealed, it’s not referring to spectacular things or evil things that need to be exposed. It’s referring to things where God would either want us to trust him (not come to knowledge through sin), or not want his plan of destruction being revealed because he wants to destroy so in so. Also if all divination and all sorcery or occult practice was evil, why cherry pick on those things, why not say also that all dreams and all visions and all prophets and all God/gods are evil too? Because Jeremiah 14:14 says “Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.” This implies there are true prophets as well as false, true visions as well as false, true divinations as well as false, true God as well as false idols. Also Ezekiel 13:7 “Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, “The Lord declares,” though I have not spoken?” this implies there is a true as well as a false. Also Zachariah 10:2 “The idols speak deceitfully, diviners see visions that lie; they tell dreams that are false, they give comfort in vain. Therefore the people wander like sheep oppressed for lack of a shepherd.” Does this imply that all dreams are false? No. Notice diviners see visions that lie, ok, well some visions can be true, so that would imply a true diviner. You can’t have a false without a true, if it was all false, he would not have said false, he would have just said, the diviners see visions, they tell dreams, they give comfort in vain. But he does not say this, so he implies there are a true as well as a false. Also what constitutes a true and false prophet? In Deuteronomy 13:1-3 “If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer” and also Deuteronomy 18:21-22 “You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.” So, divination in the form of seeing into the secret present or seeing into the future, if done in the name of the Lord and it comes to pass, it’s good, but if it does not come to pass, it’s false, and if it comes to pass, but it’s not spoken in the name of the Lord, but in the name of false gods, then it’s also false, just false for another reason. Not false because it did not come to pass. Some people think, all predicting is false, no, that is not what it says. Also some may say well if GOD does these things in or through you without you trying to do them, then it’s ok; but then one could easily say the same about “giving” about “fasting” about “prayer” about “fellowship” about “witnessing” and other Christian disciplines. But that is not what the bible says, it says WE must take up the cross daily and follow. It does not say God does it for you. Also there is a scripture in Hebrews 5:14 “But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.” Notice it says they trained THEMSELVES to discern. It does not say God trained their senses. This is not referring to the 5 physical senses, that is obviously not what needs “training”. Also I would like to delve into the meaning of the word clairvoyant. It means from French clair meaning "clear" and voyance meaning "vision” so, to have clear vision. Is God against clear vision? Obviously not, acts 2:17 “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions”. Now do you want to say God is giving UNCLEAR vision? Obviously not, he is giving clear, unclouded vision, in other words, clairvoyancy.

Shiranui117 said:

What, you've never heard the expression "in spirit" before?

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Shiranui117 said:

a. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.
in spirit
not physically in a place or situation but thinking about the people who are there and wishing you were there
I'm afraid I can't come, but I'll be there in spirit.

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Ok, the one with Paul I’ll give you.

It doesn't say "was not my spirit with you." It says, both in the Greek and in the English, "was not my heart with you. Greek, &#954;&#945;&#961;&#948;

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&#8055;&#945;."
St. Augustine interprets this as being a special ability of spiritual sight, rather than an out-of-body experience.

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The Hebrew word in 2 kings 5:26 where Elisha says “was not my spirit with you” the word spirit is in Hebrew “leb” and CAN mean “soul, inner man, mind”. Plus, if someone’s heart or thoughts are with you, that does not mean their going to KNOW what you did, but in this case Elisha knows what gahazi did, so his soul literally had to be with him.

Define "put yourself in the spirit"?

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To put yourself in the Spirit means to put yourself there. Think of it like, there is a river flowing or there is the ocean in front of you. Well, you walk in, or jump in. The river does not make you jump in or walk in. You are the one that does it. So, put yourself in the Spirit. John put himself in the Spirit on the Lords day.

No, we don't put ourselves in any spiritual state. It's all a gift from God which He graciously grants to us, and we cooperate with Him in all things.

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So, God’s gifts, is he ALWAYS willing to give them, or is it depend on what he deems fit to give? What about the Holy Spirit, is he always willing to give the Holy Spirit, or is it just when he deems it fit to give?
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The Spirit (meaning the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity) is different from the spirit (our human spirit).

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Your interpretation of those verses I gave are incorrect because those verses are not talking about praying in or walking in OUR human spirit, it’s saying we are to pray/walk IN the holy Spirit.

"Be filled" is passive. We allow God to fill us with the Holy Spirit. We submit ourselves from Him, and God sends the Spirit to us, Who fills us and keeps us focused on spiritual things.

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It’s not passive when the verse says “be filled with the Spirit” for if it was passive, then the part before it would be just as passive which says “be not drunk with wine”, is that passive too? No, that is a command to not be drunk with wine, then he says right after this, but be filled with the Spirit. Be NOT drunk, BE FILLED with. Both are commands, you can clearly see it from the wording how it flows.

We pray in the Holy Spirit, yes. The Holy Spirit also prays for and with us, Romans 8:26-28. To pray in the Spirit means to pray under the guidance and influence of the Holy Spirit. How much have you heard about the Holy Spirit? He is the Comforter that Christ promised to us in John's Gospel. I can tell you about the Holy Spirit if you'd like.

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So, to pray in the Holy Spirit means to pray under his guidance. Ok, so that means the holy Spirit is ALWAYS willing to guide us in prayer. He is always willing to guide us in life, in the laws, in the virtues, in fasting, in relationships, in this in that, ok, well why not also guide us with OBE’s and EVERYTHING we do? Why do you cherry pick what the holy Spirit is WILLING to guide us in?

Giving us instructions to do our part in living and growing in our Christian life is to be expected. We do have our own role to play in our salvation--but without God's part, our part is meaningless.

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Right, so you just admit my point, we play a part, God does not DO it FOR us. He does not MAKE it all happen, we play a part. Well, why would it be any different with us playing a part in an OBE under God’s guidance?

Yes, "abide in Me, and I will abide in you" from John 15.

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Right…….

Yes, we repent of our sins and die to them in baptism. That section of Romans 8 focuses very heavily on baptism as a death to sin and a resurrection/new birth as a new creation in Christ.

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Right, but it’s also showing our walk with God. If WE BY the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh, we shall live. WE, WE, is my point.

Putting ourselves under the control of the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as having an OBE. How much do you know about the Holy Spirit?

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The Holy Spirit does a few things, gives guidance, revelation, produces fruits through us. But you seem to cherry pick what area’s the Holy Spirit will GUIDE us IN. With fasting, prayer, witnessing, bible study, the virtues, laws, the holy Spirit will guide us, but when it comes to OBE’s he won’t guide us. Why do you cherry pick? And what makes your assumptions authoritative? When you pray with the act of your will, your not under the control of the Holy Spirit at that moment, your pressing into him to be controlled by him. Likewise with a self induced OBE, you’re inducing it through the act of your will, and then you submit the experience to the Holy Spirit to control further, meaning you’re willing to praise God while having the OBE and willing to travel where God desires, he actually may desire a few places and then let you pick. With God there is freedom. So, your letting the Holy Spirit control you.

No, I'm recognizing the proper place for us Christians is to be submissive to God. I'm not adding anything, nor taking anything away. You have yet to show anything about how OBE's are beneficial to our walk with Christ, in the Holy Spirit.

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I have shown how their beneficial. I gave a whole list. They reveal hidden knowledge, if you travel certain places. You can learn the spirit world. You can experience God in a different way. You can sharpen your meditation techniques in your mind.

We're also free to walk into a brothel and use several gifts. But are they being used properly? Clearly not.

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Apples and oranges, OBE’s are not sexual activities (although, yea, they can also be used for that, there is a thing called astral sex, but I don’t plan on using it for that, so your point does not compare). I plan on using the ability or gift PROPERLY.

Now you're just trying to use a reductio ad absurdum. God specifically gave us dominion over the earth, and the earth is here for us to use as we see fit. Nowhere in Scripture did it say that God gave us the right to have OBE's left and right. You're just saying, "Dad let me use a plain old hammer, so why shouldn't I be able to use all the powertools, too?"

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Just because scripture nowhere says God gave us the right to self induce OBE’s, it also does not say anywhere in scripture that God FORBIDS doing self induced OBE’s either. So yea, it does not CONDONE it, but it also does not FORBID it, it’s SILENT. And if it was truly evil in God’s eyes and truly serious against him, he would have SURELY FORBADE IT, but HE DIDN’T. That should tell you something right there. And your analogy does not compare about the old hammer and the powertools. Plus, even if it did compare, it’s not bad to use powertools, is it? Also using the earth as we see fit? Why cause we live in earthly bodies? Well we have souls and spirits too, so we can use the spirit world as we see fit as well, just the same as the earth. Why? Because we are spirits and bodies. We are not just “earth” beings.

Shiranui117 said:

That was in the next chapter, not in the section you referenced. I found what you mentioned after doing a keyword search. Do make sure you have your references straight; it'll make things less confusing for the both of us.

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Shiranui117 said:

In context, Ephesians 2:1-10 describes two opposing kingdoms: Satan, the prince of the powers of the air, whose kingdom is of this world, the world that is marred by sin. We were once slaves in that kingdom, but God by His grace ransomed us, and brought us into His kingdom, which is in the heavenly places. Now of course, we weren't taken up to Heaven. But He is reestablishing His heavenly kingdom here on Earth. Jesus and John the Baptist talked a lot about how the Kingdom was at hand. Jesus even says that the Kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21). God is bringing His kingdom back to earth; in the Lord's Prayer we say "thy kingdom come." We will experience Heaven (God's Kingdom) here on earth--indeed, this is possible for us even in this life.

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Ok, I concede that the kingdom of heaven is brought into our hearts and lives here on earth, yea, but also, if that is so, and we are in a figurative sense seated with Christ in heavenly realms, and this heaven is within us, well, why wouldn&#8217;t we be free to travel to heaven if that is our home?

Comparing citizenship and residency in two earthly kingdoms is not an adequate comparison to the Kingdom of God. Apples and oranges.

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AHUH! But it&#8217;s not apples and oranges in the case of my point, I have scripture to back me with this. Everything in the old testament is a foreshadow of the new testament (Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8:5, Hebrews 10:1) now one of those Old Testament passage were in Exodus 22:21 &#8220;Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt&#8221;. Also Exodus 12:48 &#8220;A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord&#8217;s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it.&#8221; Now this is a shadow for us. This is saying that a foreigner is permitted to move about and live among the Israelites and is even permitted to partake of the Passover if he is circumcised. So a foreigner can come and go out of that land of Israel FREELY. The only way they can partake of the Passover though is by circumcision. So, we are here on earth, we are spiritually circumcised, the cutting away of the flesh by the Spirit, born of God. So, we have partaken of the lamb of God, Jesus (Passover). We are then like a native born (Born again). We are FREE to come and go out of the land. We are FREE to come and go out of heaven, to visit and then come back. Egypt is a type of earth, Canaan land is a type of heaven. We are free to come and go.

Where does it say this in the Scriptures? Where does it say that we can do this of our own free will without God's OK?

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In fact, from the Scriptural evidence I've come across, we will all be living here on the redeemed and renewed Earth after the Last Day and the Judgement.

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Where does it say in scripture that God forbids it? Ahuh, I thought so, nowhere. And yes I concede that we will all be living here on the redeemed and renewed earth after the last judgment day. However, heaven will be our holding place AFTER the death of this body BEFORE the final judgment day. But just because this earth will be our permanent home, does not mean God is against us visiting other places that are not our home. Just because I live in a house, does not mean I have to be chained inside it all day long and night and never leave the place, right? Same with earth and heaven. We don&#8217;t always have to be chained to the earth.

If you can't see the difference between making scrambled eggs and inducing an OBE, then there's something very seriously wrong with that picture. I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

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Right, I do not see the difference, except in activity only. So what if it&#8217;s a different activity? Cooking scrambled eggs and self inducing an OBE, ok, different activity, so what? Why is one bad, the other ok?

There are things that God reserves to Himself,

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Why does God reserve OBE&#8217;s to himself?

and things that He restricts or forbids from us for our own good.

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Show me from scripture that God restricts or forbids OBE&#8217;s? and for our own good at that? You are saying this, scripture is not saying it.

It's not "cherrypicking," it's acknowledging God's sovereignty and wisdom.

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Yes it is cherry picking, indeed it is. God can sovereignty make you pray, but if he doesn&#8217;t, does that mean you should not pray? You already know the answer, of course you should still pray, so it&#8217;s the same with self inducing an OBE, yea we acknowledge God&#8217;s sovereignty but that does not mean we can&#8217;t induce an OBE by our will, no more than praying with our will.

Also, in Christianity (well, Orthodox Christianity anyway) we pray first thing when we wake up, and only after that do we go about our daily lives. And even in our daily lives, we should ideally work in prayer to everything we do, "redeeming the time", as it says in Ephesians 5:16.

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If you are completely blind to the difference between foolishly causing something like an OBE on your own (which only a tiny handful of people ever even experience, let alone cause), and doing something mundane and everyday like brushing your teeth or flushing the toilet, then you need to sit down and seriously rethink a lot of things.

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Oh I see the difference between an OBE and brushing my teeth and flushing the toilet (lol, why did the toilet come to mind? ) The only difference I see is the ACTIVITY itself. I don&#8217;t see any difference as in one being EVIL and one NOT; or one being dangerous and one not. Brushing my teeth could be dangerous, what if I brushed my tongue and gagged and threw up? That&#8217;s dangerous to throw up; it&#8217;s not good for your stomach/mouth/teeth.

An encounter with God--no matter what form, be it the small voice that spoke to Elijah, or God having a conversation with someone, or God visiting Abraham, or angels appearing to people--can never be called "low-level" or "indirect".

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A voice in your mind vs a audible voice in your ear, one is a low level evidence while the later is a higher level evidence, because the audible is loader. A voice in the mind could be anything, it could be just your own voice. But if you hear an audible voice, that would not be YOUR voice, so it would be a higher level evidence.

I'm going to respond to your last post tommorow.

Shiranui117 said:

No, we don't put ourselves in any spiritual state. It's all a gift from God which He graciously grants to us, and we cooperate with Him in all things.

"Be filled" is passive. We allow God to fill us with the Holy Spirit. We submit ourselves from Him, and God sends the Spirit to us, Who fills us and keeps us focused on spiritual things.

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I'm going to comment on these two points together. You seem to answer your own objection in the first statement, with a positive in the second. Yes, we do put ourselves into spiritual states, in a sense of the word. And yes, it is passive. Let me explain.

We are already given the 'gift' of God in all things. It is simply a matter of opening ourselves to allow it. As you do, you find it was never not yours to begin with. It was always there, fully. All that was making it seem as withheld from us, was us. As we put ourselves, through an act of our will through desire, into a place of surrender, we let go of our disallowing of it in our lives.

You are correct it is a cooperation. But that cooperation requires you to act, you to choose, you to open yourself by actively putting yourself into a place to see and hear. It is rarely a case where you are just going about doing nothing when the skies open and you are 'filled' by the Spirit. It does happen, to be sure, but they are seemingly random moments. Technically these are peak experiences. Everyone has these to one degree or another throughout their lives. They are momentary, and then we fall back into our normal state of consciousness, blind to what is always there.

We assume then that this was something outside ourselves that God has to do, as we seemed to have done nothing. But that is actually not true. You did do something. In those moments, something within you stopped and saw what was there. We don't recognize what had happened in us since it seemed all so spontaneous.

Meditation practices are done to put you specifically in the path of these happening, rather than just arbitrarily happening. You specifically practice techniques that allow it to happen deliberately. I completely agree you don't produce Spirit. But you do move your state of conscious awareness to align and open to hearing and seeing that which is always already freely given. It may seem that God is the one doing it, but it is in fact simply you moving yourself away from those things in us that prevent us from knowing God, into the state of seeing the ever-present reality of God.

What you discover then is that these peak experiences where it seems you did nothing, you find you actually did. Things in your life aligned in such a way to create an opening in your consciousness that allowed you to see. The difference is, the one catches you off guard completely. The other, you are aware of what is going on.

Again though, it is an act of allowing, not producing. You do put yourself into altered states of mind, that allows what is Spirit to be known by you. You don't just do nothing, like watching a ball game on TV waiting for God to do it for you. You have to act.

Shiranui117 said:

Allow me to take your quote, and change it around a little bit. You'll see where I'm going with this shortly:

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Shiranui117 said:

"When we pray, we are doing so with the act of our own will(which God made for the exercise of freedom) but we are also submitting to God through the act of praying. When we pray, God is not MAKING us pray. Now....when we murder someone through the act of our own will, God is not doing it, he is not making it happen, but through us making it happen, we can ALSO submit to God the experience, i.e "ok God, who would you like me to murder today? Also, i wanna thank you for your protection, your love (shoot up an office or whatever) and your power is great, i see it in your handy work. Their, we just submitted to God through the experience that we self induced. Just like prayer, we submit to God through the act of prayer that we ourselves did, God did not do. It's the SAME thing. Just with a different endevor. Why is it ok to pray with the act of our will, but it's not ok to kill with the act of our will? Tell me that one?"
Do you see my point? There are good and bad actions. There are things that God smiles upon, and things that He does not. Submitting to God while doing a bad action is not really submitting to God at all, and is not good. Submitting to God while following His commandments is good.

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I fully understand your point, and the way you presented it was very humorous, it made me laugh, I truly got a kick out of it. But, at the same time though, your comparing apples to oranges. Murder is not the same thing as self inducing an OBE. Not even CLOSE to being the same. It’s not just not the same activity, it’s also not the same as in DEGREE of TYPE of activity. Murder is a direct breaking of a CLEAR law of God. Self inducing an OBE is not breaking a CLEAR law of God that is revealed. Also murder is hurting and doing away with someone’s life that God gave them. It’s also hurting many of that person’s family members. It’s also hurting God because you destroyed a life he made. You robed someone of vital experiences in life that he can grow and learn in. OBE’s are NOT ANY of doing something like that. OBE’s do not take away anybodies life, even your own, it does not hurt any family members or friends, I gauss the only debate is does it hurt God? Does it hurt your own soul, I don’t see how it does, you see that it does, but you have yet to show me HOW it hurts God or our own soul? You have not given me a CLEAR CUT explanation of how self inducing an OBE can hurt us or God.

OBE’s are NOT murder, not the same. Also, EVEN if I were to concede your point and say that it’s not apples to oranges, ok, well, let me go along with that for a moment. Even then your point does not work, and here is why: God sometimes gave OBE’s spontaneously, that would be equivalent to God making someone MURDER spontaneously, without them doing it through the act of the will. Ok, well if God gives a direct law saying “do not murder” and then he MAKES someone murder, that would be hypocritical on God’s part, and is God hypocritical? Obviously NOT, God is consistent with his own character. If God forbids something and tells us not to do it, he is not going to turn around and then MAKE someone go against his own law, right? That should be quite obvious. Well if self inducing OBE’s are forbidden by God, then God is not then going to turn around and then MAKE someone have an OBE. God is consistent with his character. Either murder is wrong or it’s not, either OBE’s are wrong or their not.

But hey, even murder is not a cut and dry issue. The bible talks about if you kill someone accidentally, you’re not responsible. Or if someone breaks into your house and you defend yourself, then you’re not responsible. Or capital punishment for the purpose of justice, that is not murder. Murder is the motive of pre meditated malice. I just wanted to bring this point up, in case you came back with some scriptures saying God commanded the Israelites to kill. Context, motives.

See my loaded shotgun vs. water gun analogy.

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Lol, shotgun vs water gun analogy, not only is this apples and oranges, the WHOLE analogy is WAY off. Your barking up the wrong tree. First, is prayer like a watergun? What are we doing? Squirting God in the eye? Lol. No, prayer is more like talking to a friend who happens to be your king at the same time; that analogy fits better. And OBE&#8217;s are not the shotgun either, her is a better analogy for them: your body is a seed, a seed has a shell on it, the shell breaks open and sprouts and then it grows up through the dirt and into the sunlight. Just because you make an analogy does not mean it&#8217;s going to be accurate.

Plus, even if I GAVE you this analogy, STILL your point does not work. Here&#8217;s why: a shotgun(what you refer to as self induced OBE&#8217;s) are not evil, it&#8217;s what you DO with the shotgun that can be either good or evil. A shotgun is not evil, put it into the hands of an evil man, and then it can do damage. But, I&#8217;m not even going to GIVE you this analogy. OBE&#8217;s are not like shotguns, their WAY less dangerous then what you think. If an OBE was truly as dangerous as what you&#8217;re saying, then walking on a trail or going to the gym or eating food would be JUST as EQUALLY dangerous. Because ALL of those things, ANYTHING can be dangerous, I can walk up a trail and trip and fall and hit my head. I can eat food and choke, I can go to the gym and strain a muscle and the weight fall on me. ANYTHING can be dangerous, but is the danger as GREAT as you&#8217;re making it out to be? NOT EVEN CLOSE. If self inducing OBE&#8217;s are dangerous, then they would be JUST as dangerous in DEGREE as doing anything else minor in our daily activities.

You don't need OBE's for any of that. There's more evil in the world than at the Bildeburg meeting. You can help your doubting friend believe in God and come to accept Jesus in countless other ways, like praying for him, be. You don't need to be up in outer space to be in awe of God's creation.

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There&#8217;s MANY ways to expose the fruitless deeds of darkness. There&#8217;s many ways to praise God, there&#8217;s many ways to be in awe of his handy work in creation. There&#8217;s many ways to clear away peoples doubts. There&#8217;s more than ONE way of doing all of this, that&#8217;s the beauty of God and his creation, there&#8217;s MUCH VERIATY with God. And that variety creates DIVERSITY and diversity creates FREEDOM and freedom creates preferences and preferences are bred from our tallents/gifts/interests. In other words, yea, you don&#8217;t need to do self induced OBE&#8217;s to expose fruitless deeds of darkness, or to expel doubts from a friend or praise God or learn his creation, true, but YOU CAN do OBE&#8217;s to do ALL of these things IF YOU WISH TO, it&#8217;s not against God.

We don't have commands against self-induced OBE's because they never happened in the whole of the Bible. It's like expecting the Roman Empire to forbid people from leaving their pet giant pandas tied on a leash to a tree. It just didn't happen, so there's no point in expressly forbidding it.

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Haha! Your funny, I love it, the panda&#8217;s, you got me cracking up here. The toilet and the panda&#8217;s . I&#8217;m seriously laughing my guts out here, but that&#8217;s a good thing, proverbs says &#8220;laughter is medicine to the bones and health to the body&#8221; so your giving me some medicine now, thank you, I need it. Ok&#8230;..now&#8230;.to your point: another apples and oranges, people did have near death experiences back in biblical days, people did have OBE&#8217;s back in biblical days. Also, yes, there were ancient meditation practices back in biblical times, and those methods also induced OBE&#8217;s. Here is a source to prove this http://www.iacworld.org/english/research/history-obes . So, Moses would have known about OBE&#8217;s, God would also have been aware of people having them and practicing them and or connecting to the spirit realm. If it really was that serious to him, and evil, he would have forbade it, but he did not.

God can pass judgement on souls, we cannot. It is a sin for us to pass judgement, because it is not our place; it is God's place. Think about that in relation to OBE's.

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Huh? That makes no sense in relation to what I said. Again here is what I said &#8220;But self induced OBE's don't "harm" the body. They don't even harm the soul. Also your not comming to knowledge through sin, it's not a sin to self induce an OBE, if it was a sin, then anytime God made someone have an OBE, he would thus be making them sin, and that makes no sense, right? It's equivelant to saying God making adam and eve eat the fruit, so now it's not a sin to eat the fruit, just as long as God makes them do it, but that's silly. If God makes anything happen, then we know it's not a sin period. So, we know OBE's are not sinful.&#8221;

If I understand you correctly, your saying, if God makes you do it, it&#8217;s ok, but if you do it, it&#8217;s not ok, and even though that may APPEAR hypocritical, it&#8217;s not, because God is in the position to judge, not us. That is what I THINK your saying, and if I&#8217;m correct in understanding you that is so absurd that you would even think God would be like this. God&#8217;s judgment is within truth, it&#8217;s not within hypocrisy.

There are good things and bad things. Are you not familiar with the concept of "sin"? We can use our free will for good things and for bad things. Not all exercisings of our free will are good. We can use our free will in a bad way. Refusing to eat from the forbidden tree is following God's command not to do so. It's hardly "going off and doing their own thing". They are being submissive to God and obedient to His commandments. I really don't understand how you're not getting the difference. It really is beyond me.

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I&#8217;m not getting the difference because the way your defining or describing free will is like, if we do something, then it&#8217;s wrong, but if God does it for us or through us, then it&#8217;s not wrong. First you say OBE&#8217;s are good if God does them for you, but if we self induce them, then it&#8217;s wrong. If Adam and eve eat the fruit, then it&#8217;s wrong, but if Adam and eve don&#8217;t eat the fruit by their own ability (self induce, will) then it&#8217;s not wrong. Huh? You&#8217;re not being consistent. Which is it, God makes us do it and then it&#8217;s good, or we act with our will and it can be good too?

Windwalker said:

Exactly the opposite of asking how, which is all seeking to do. In a word, you fall. You let go, and fall into the Ocean.

Remember I said it's the easiest thing in the world to do once you do it? But it's the hardest thing you do while you continue to try to do it. It is an 'effortless effort'. The only way you know what it looks like, is to allow it to happen.

I have come to understand the meaning of the word faith, in such an act.

As you move into meditation, and you find yourself in that presence, give yourself to it. Not for yourself, but for itself. Offer yourself to it, wholly. It is the meaning of the word surrender.

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So, why is it, that God illudes us when we try to find him, but when we don't try, we don't find him, but when we "surrender" then we find him?

Jollybear said:

So, why is it, that God illudes us when we try to find him, but when we don't try, we don't find him, but when we "surrender" then we find him?

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Because when you seek using your normal mind and will, you are seeking for yourself, your small self. It is self-facing. Me, my needs, my wants, my desires, my insecurities, me, me, me. You are facing yourself, not God.

When we surrender, we are saying in effect "your will, not mine". You are not looking to yourself, you are looking to God. It's a hairs-breadth width between that looking at yourself, and looking at God. As I said, seek and you shall find is fulfilled in seeking not for your sake, but for God's. You seek love, for love sake itself. You give yourself to it. You do not try to bring it to yourself.

Once you can do this, things change. And, learning how to do this, will be your first lesson in knowing God, and in knowing yourself.

Windwalker said:

Because when you seek using your normal mind and will, you are seeking for yourself, your small self. It is self-facing. Me, my needs, my wants, my desires, my insecurities, me, me, me. You are facing yourself, not God.

When we surrender, we are saying in effect "your will, not mine". You are not looking to yourself, you are looking to God. It's a hairs-breadth width between that looking at yourself, and looking at God. As I said, seek and you shall find is fulfilled in seeking not for your sake, but for God's. You seek love, for love sake itself. You give yourself to it. You do not try to bring it to yourself.

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I have two questions
First is: what is wrong with wanting something for our "small selves"?
Second is: How do we STOP wanting our desires to be fullfilled, our wants, our insecurities to become secure, how do we stop from wanting our needs from being met? How do we "stop" that within ourselves?

Once you can do this, things change. And, learning how to do this, will be your first lesson in knowing God, and in knowing yourself.

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How do we learn how to do this?
Also, what is the "second" lesson in knowing God?

Jollybear said:

I have two questions
First is: what is wrong with wanting something for our "small selves"?

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Nothing is. We need to do things to take care of our needs. It is as normal as feeding your body food. But both of course, are to be done in balance. Being a narcissist when you are an adult is unbalanced and unhealthy.

That said however, the purpose of communion with God becomes two-fold. First, through this higher awareness you gain insights into yourself which in turn put you into balance and heal the parts that were broken, at least to the point you can now move forward in your growth. Secondly, now that the ego is healed, you move beyond your self-identification with the ego and into identification with the soul.

To be stuck always trying to get something for yourself, from others and from God, leaves you stuck as a child in your small self, your ego. If you can't see beyond that, what can be seen of God is only in fleeting glimpses when your momentarily not stuck inside your own world of 'self'. It's the same for seeing others too, for that matter. But the work with God, requires you taking off your clothes, so to speak. You can't bring yourself in to the inner chambers with God. You must move through progressively further purification of mind and intention. You're small ego can't fit through those doors.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Why? Because this is typically a mind fixated on the needs of his small self. The same holds true for anyone who lays up their treasure here on earth, so to speak. We are fixated on ourselves, and not taking the next step of laying that down and entering empty-handed before God to be raised in that Light.

That's why.

Jollybear said:

Second is: How do we STOP wanting our desires to be fullfilled, our wants, our insecurities to become secure, how do we stop from wanting our needs from being met? How do we "stop" that within ourselves?

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First, you will have needs, just like your body needs food. But what I am talking about is within meditation seeking to meet God. Within that act, you must offer yourself. You must come seeing higher knowledge and truth in order to be lifted up and beyond your own needs and desires. "Not my will, but thine be done".

Beyond that then, things come into focus, and a new balance is attained. It's not that you walk around denying yourself like some aesthetic martyr. Not at all. But as your mind becomes much more acutely aware of God in all things, who you are and your needs and priories naturally begins to shift. You are growing up, literally. You are now shifting your center of gravity of your self-identification from the ego-self, to the spiritual-self. It is not by you imposing rules and restrictions on yourself, which will never work. It is through the transforming of your mind.

Then your ego, though still a part of what makes you who you are, just like your body is, is not the dominant captain of the boat. You are, in your higher mind, working with your own ego the same as you do your body. Again, it's about growing beyond the ego as the locus of our self-identity.

Jollybear said:

How do we learn how to do this?

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Practice. Meditate. Practice. Meditate. Make it a priority in your life.

Jollybear said:

Also, what is the "second" lesson in knowing God?

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Becoming your true Self. Beyond ego, and beyond even the soul.

Windwalker said:

Nothing is. We need to do things to take care of our needs. It is as normal as feeding your body food. But both of course, are to be done in balance. Being a narcissist when you are an adult is unbalanced and unhealthy.

That said however, the purpose of communion with God becomes two-fold. First, through this higher awareness you gain insights into yourself which in turn put you into balance and heal the parts that were broken, at least to the point you can now move forward in your growth. Secondly, now that the ego is healed, you move beyond your self-identification with the ego and into identification with the soul.

To be stuck always trying to get something for yourself, from others and from God, leaves you stuck as a child in your small self, your ego. If you can't see beyond that, what can be seen of God is only in fleeting glimpses when your momentarily not stuck inside your own world of 'self'. It's the same for seeing others too, for that matter. But the work with God, requires you taking off your clothes, so to speak. You can't bring yourself in to the inner chambers with God. You must move through progressively further purification of mind and intention. You're small ego can't fit through those doors.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Why? Because this is typically a mind fixated on the needs of his small self. The same holds true for anyone who lays up their treasure here on earth, so to speak. We are fixated on ourselves, and not taking the next step of laying that down and entering empty-handed before God to be raised in that Light.

That's why.


First, you will have needs, just like your body needs food. But what I am talking about is within meditation seeking to meet God. Within that act, you must offer yourself. You must come seeing higher knowledge and truth in order to be lifted up and beyond your own needs and desires. "Not my will, but thine be done".

Beyond that then, things come into focus, and a new balance is attained. It's not that you walk around denying yourself like some aesthetic martyr. Not at all. But as your mind becomes much more acutely aware of God in all things, who you are and your needs and priories naturally begins to shift. You are growing up, literally. You are now shifting your center of gravity of your self-identification from the ego-self, to the spiritual-self. It is not by you imposing rules and restrictions on yourself, which will never work. It is through the transforming of your mind.

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How do we "become more aware of God"? and how do we "offer ourselves" more?

Then your ego, though still a part of what makes you who you are, just like your body is, is not the dominant captain of the boat. You are, in your higher mind, working with your own ego the same as you do your body. Again, it's about growing beyond the ego as the locus of our self-identity.


Practice. Meditate. Practice. Meditate. Make it a priority in your life.


Becoming your true Self. Beyond ego, and beyond even the soul.

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What is the third lesson in knowing God then?
Also, how do we go beyond the soul?

Jollybear said:

How do we "become more aware of God"? and how do we "offer ourselves" more?



What is the third lesson in knowing God then?
Also, how do we go beyond the soul?

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These are all guideposts, not formulas to follow and magic will happen. "Seek and you shall find". Jesus only offered pointers, never a how-to manual.

Windwalker said:

These are all guideposts, not formulas to follow and magic will happen. "Seek and you shall find". Jesus only offered pointers, never a how-to manual.

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Why do you think their is no solid flat formula for this? Why just guideposts? I'm just trying to understand the deep underlying meaning behind it all.

Jollybear said:

Why do you think their is no solid flat formula for this? Why just guideposts? I'm just trying to understand the deep underlying meaning behind it all.

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Because a spiritual path is individual. Pointing in a general direction is proper, but each individual has their own personal terrain to navigate and learn. It is part of their process. I can share what I do and how that works for me, but you cannot copy that because you are not me, and I am not you.

When I say we must move beyond the ego, that is universally true. How I do that, or you do that, is your path of self-discovery. You have your obstacles, and I have mine. Think of it like me telling you how to ride a bicycle. If you attempt to do the steps mechanically, you will not be able to ride. You need to find within yourself what it feels like to experience that balance, and then make that sense of balance a habit. Only you can discover that for you. You can't take how I do that, and simply repeat it following what it looks like externally. You have to learn how to integrate it and do it from within yourself.

It's the same with dancing. You need to learn how to find the flow within yourself, in how your body and sense of movement works. Others can show basic things to do, but you have to finally 'let go' and just do it. It's like that with God. Think of God as your partner in dance. You have to be sensitive to the subtle leading, and know how to naturally respond in the movements of your body to that. That's your work. You have to learn to listen. I can't teach you that. No one can.

You may ask God to help teach, and you should, but you have to put yourself as a student, attentive, and listening. Not grasping at God, "Just tell me how!". That will not work. Why? Because you are looking to produce it like a mechanical thing. It is instead learning to "let it be", learning to "allow", learning to 'flow' with spirit, learning to become a partner in that dance of God.

Does this help? These are guidelines, not an instruction manual. The basic steps are already outlined in the traditions, prayer, reading, meditation, etc. Doing those is not dancing. That's just moving feet around. You have to enter the Music and dance. You have to learn to let go.

Windwalker said:

Because a spiritual path is individual. Pointing in a general direction is proper, but each individual has their own personal terrain to navigate and learn. It is part of their process. I can share what I do and how that works for me, but you cannot copy that because you are not me, and I am not you.

When I say we must move beyond the ego, that is universally true. How I do that, or you do that, is your path of self-discovery. You have your obstacles, and I have mine. Think of it like me telling you how to ride a bicycle. If you attempt to do the steps mechanically, you will not be able to ride. You need to find within yourself what it feels like to experience that balance, and then make that sense of balance a habit. Only you can discover that for you. You can't take how I do that, and simply repeat it following what it looks like externally. You have to learn how to integrate it and do it from within yourself.

It's the same with dancing. You need to learn how to find the flow within yourself, in how your body and sense of movement works. Others can show basic things to do, but you have to finally 'let go' and just do it. It's like that with God. Think of God as your partner in dance. You have to be sensitive to the subtle leading, and know how to naturally respond in the movements of your body to that. That's your work. You have to learn to listen. I can't teach you that. No one can.

You may ask God to help teach, and you should, but you have to put yourself as a student, attentive, and listening. Not grasping at God, "Just tell me how!". That will not work. Why? Because you are looking to produce it like a mechanical thing. It is instead learning to "let it be", learning to "allow", learning to 'flow' with spirit, learning to become a partner in that dance of God.

Does this help? These are guidelines, not an instruction manual. The basic steps are already outlined in the traditions, prayer, reading, meditation, etc. Doing those is not dancing. That's just moving feet around. You have to enter the Music and dance. You have to learn to let go.

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I like it, well said, like it allot. From hearing this, it's like no more questions, it's like a perfect response. Sorta like the same thing with the flower. Each flower has to grow out through the ground by itself. If one flower grew out of the ground and then told another flower to grow the same way, same path ways, same hight. Then the other flower, might hit a rock and go no further it it has to not deviate from the same path ways. So it has to adapt and divert from the same exact pathways.

Jollybear said:

I like it, well said, like it allot. From hearing this, it's like no more questions, it's like a perfect response. Sorta like the same thing with the flower. Each flower has to grow out through the ground by itself. If one flower grew out of the ground and then told another flower to grow the same way, same path ways, same hight. Then the other flower, might hit a rock and go no further it it has to not deviate from the same path ways. So it has to adapt and divert from the same exact pathways.

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Yes. Thank you. But as pointed out, it's not 'anything goes', in the sense believing you can water plants with Gatorade (reference to movie Idocracy). It obviously needs water, soil, and sunlight. But the rest is responding to the Creative flow. That's attuning to yourself. Is it producing fruit? Does it transform you into a move loving soul, or is it simply using the practices itself as a form of spiritual avoidance? The fruits again, will tell.

Jollybear said:

Here is that post i was going to give you supporting the view that the occult is biblical, i will respond to your other recent posts soon.
Occult practices are in the bible and their not always condemned by God, to find that out one has to really look carefully at what the text says. Here are some examples from scripture where occult practice lead people to God. Numbers 24:1 &#8220;Balaam after seeing it pleased the Lord to bless Israel; he did not resort to using divination as at other times.&#8221;

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Where does it talk about how occult practice led people to God in this case?

Genesis 30:27 &#8220;But Laban said to him, &#8220;If I have found favor in your eyes, please stay. I have learned by divination that the Lord has blessed me because of you.&#8221; If demons were the ones inspiring Laban when he used divination, why would the demons reveal that God was blessing him when that would be shooting themselves in the foot?

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Look at it in context. It's not talking about black magic occultic divination; it's worth noting that the word used for "divination" also has other meanings, such as "experience" or "perceive".

27 And Laban said to him, &#8220;Please stay, if I have found favor in your eyes, for I have learned by experience that the Lord has blessed me for your sake.&#8221; 28 Then he said, &#8220;Name me your wages, and I will give it.&#8221;
29 So Jacob said to him, &#8220;You know how I have served you and how your livestock has been with me. 30 For what you had before I came was little, and it has increased to a great amount; the Lord has blessed you since my coming. And now, when shall I also provide for my own house?&#8221;

Laban is talking about how he has learned by experience (i.e. learned by observing and watching what was going on with Jacob's work) that God has blessed Laban since Jacob's coming (i.e. through the increase of Laban's livestock). No occultic stuff going on there.

Genesis 44:5 &#8220;Isn&#8217;t this the cup my master drinks from and also uses for divination? This is a wicked thing you have done.&#8221; Genesis 44:15

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God had given Joseph the gift of interpreting anyone's dreams, as well as other spiritual gifts. This does not imply that he used occultic practices (I'm talking "occultic" in the sense in which it is commonly perceived, i.e. through magic). Plus, how do we know that Joseph ever even used the cup for divination? He had already lied in planting the cup on Benjamin and then scaring his brothers half to death with threats of slavery. Who's to say that the cup being used for divination was just another part of the ruse?

1 Samuel 28:7 God does not answer Saul by dreams, urim or prophets, but he gets a true message from Samuel through the medium &#8220;Saul then said to his attendants, &#8220;Find me a woman who is a medium. . ./quote]Even though this had been expressly forbidden by God, and Samuel himself had been the enemy of such people as the one to whom Saul went. In fact, he put on a cloak so no one would recognize him--Saul did it in secret, because he knew it was forbidden!

Matthew 17:3 &#8220;Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.&#8221; Jesus talked to two departed spirits, Peter and John seen it, this is the definition of medium and necromancy, talking to the spirits of the dead.

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You're accusing God Himself of necromancy, of manipulating the spirits of the dead through black magic, of speaking with people over whom He has the authority to raise back to life and to destroy utterly? Do you realize that this is actually blasphemy?

And I suppose every appearance of a deceased Saint to a person also falls under the category of necromancy?

Also in 1 Timothy 2:5 says &#8220;For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus&#8221;. So, Jesus was a medium.

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:biglaugh: Do you even know what a medium is? Or do you think that God is dead?

4. (Spirituality, New Age, Astrology & Self-help / Alternative Belief Systems) a person supposedly used as a spiritual intermediary between the dead and the living

Also moving along the definition of divination is Latin for &#8220;to be inspired by a god&#8221;.

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That is not how it is used in English. Even cognates can have different nuances.

Now yes it is a little g, but in Psalms 82:6 which Jesus also quotes it says &#8220;you are gods, you are all sons of the most high&#8221;.

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This gets into the Orthodox teaching of theosis. You should look it up sometime; I think you'd like it.

So you can be &#8220;inspired&#8221; by a true god; that is divination by definition. Here is an example of astrologers or stargazers being lead to God through their astrology, Matthew 2:1-2

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Actually, back in ancient times, there was no distinction between astronomy (the study of the movement of heavenly bodies as is done in science today) and astrology (trying to figure out how stars influenced the world). They knew of a prophecy regarding the stars and a king, and when they saw it being fulfilled, they went to check it out, letting the prophesied star be their guide.

Now levitation is considered an occult practice, but here in Matthew 14:29 it says &#8220;&#8220;Come,&#8221; he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.&#8221;

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So now a miracle of God is falling into the same category as black magic?

Also telekinesis is considered an occult practice, yet Jesus says in Matthew 21:21 &#8220;Jesus replied, &#8220;Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, &#8216;Go, throw yourself into the sea,&#8217; and it will be done.&#8221;

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Passage about the power of faith=/=passage about telekinesis.

Casting lots was a form of divination, but yet it was used by men of God in the bible in numerous accounts, Acts 1:26 Joshua 18:10.

The word sorcery is latin and means to cast lots with assistance of spirits.

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Where does it say that? Wiki says this about the word "sorcery":

Likewise, sorcery was taken in ca. 1300 from Old French sorcerie, which is from Vulgar Latin *sortiarius, from sors "fate", apparently meaning "one who influences fate".

sorcery - definition of sorcery by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
sorcerythe art, practices, or spells of a person who is supposed to exercise supernatural powers through the aid of evil spirits; black magic; witchery. &#8212; sorcerer, n. &#8212; sorcerous, adj.
See also: Magic

So no, "casting lots" is not sorcery.

Also sorcery or witchcraft in the bible did not always mean extracting hidden knowledge or forbidden knowledge, it meant taking drugs and worshiping idols. Galatians 5:20 that talks about the acts of the flesh, one of them being witchcraft, that word in greek is &#8220;pharmakeia&#8221; and it means to take drugs and serve idols or false gods.

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And it's very strongly condemned by St. Paul. "Acts of the flesh" means "acts of sinful passions".

Also we need to put things into context. Yes the word &#8220;occult&#8221; means secret or hidden knowledge.

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As the word is commonly used today, "occult" means such things as sorcery, black magic, necromancy, mediums, and all those other things that God frowns upon. "Gay" originally meant "happy," but now it just means homosexual. "Occult" may have originally just meant "hidden knowledge", but now it means something far more sinister. The meanings of words change overtime.

But is that bad? Should we have a prejudice against a word? No, look at revelation 2:17 &#8220;Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.&#8221; Occult means hidden, the manna in this case means knowledge, so, hidden knowledge.

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No it doesn't. The hidden manna means the heavenly banquet, the rewards of Heaven.

Also Luke 8:10 &#8220;He said, &#8220;The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, &#8220;&#8216;though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.&#8221; So, here Jesus talks about knowledge of the secrets, occult means secret knowledge.

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This is the kind of argument that people used to try and twist Christianity into being some kind of mystery cult. The meanings of parables weren't kept secret. Christianity is not some Gnostic cult, we always reveal knowledge to all.

Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light.

"Mysteries" are not obscure intellectual thoughts, but the presence of the Kingdom of God which cannot be defined. A person's unwillingness to understand Christ's parables is due to a rejection of His Kingdom. The people don't understand because they don't want to, not because they can't.

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