Is there historical evidence from 100-400 AD on the faith-only view of baptism?

e.r.m. said:

Ken my old friend, good to.hear from you!
I should have expected your scholarly response .
Your response does make some sort of sense.

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Hi e.r.m, yes it has been awhile and we should stay in touch. But for right now, I would like to say a little more about baptism.

Baptism directly comes from Numbers 19. Both the baptism of John and the baptism of Messiah. The baptism John was performing was a result of Israelites going through the rites of purification (John 3:25), and they were being washed as commanded from Numbers 19. In this physical ritual, a red heifer was slaughtered, and burned outside the camp, and it's ashes were collected into a vessel and living or running water was added to them. Then the priest would take hyssop and dip it into the mixture and then sprinkle the unclean on the 3rd and 7th days. Just consider, those who were being sprinkled with this sooty mixture of ashes and water, became rather disgusting looking. It wasn't a pleasant sight, and what John was doing was immersing those who had this mixture sprinkled on them and washed it off.

The baptism found in Messiah involves the same process, but on a different level, a Spiritual level. Yeshua is the Red Heifer, and just as the bodies of those beasts were burned outside the camp, so also Yeshua suffered outside the city gate (Heb 13:11-12). The burning of the red heifer is symbolic of Yeshua suffering, and after His suffering was complete, what remained was His dead body (The Ashes). His dead body was placed into a vessel (the tomb) and as Num 19:15 states, all open vessels had to have a lid fastened to them, just as what happened to the tomb. Then, LIVING WATER was ADDED to the Ashes in the Vessel. What is LIVING WATER, but ETERNAL LIFE. Eternal Life was required to be added to the dead body of Yeshua just as Numbers 19:17 commands, and when all of this Gospel is sprinkled with HYSSOP upon sinners, they are covered with the soot of killing Yeshua and being rather disgusting looking in their sins. So what does a person do once they find out about their involvement with the preparing of those Ashes which was sprinkled upon them? They REPENT and submit to baptism (Acts 2:36-38), and it's not for the purpose of removing any physical defilement, but rather it's a pledge or answer toward Elohim in keeping a clear conscience (1 Pet 3:21). And how do we keep a clear conscience? By being raised up IN the resurrection of Yeshua and LIVING in HIM. Prior to this we were dead in our sins and were joined into the death of Messiah, because as Paul states that when He died, all died (2 Cor 5:14), and this reconciles Elohim. Everyone is dead and Paul did not view anyone as being alive (2 Cor 5:16), and since everyone is dead in Messiah, Elohim is reconciled, but this does not save us. What saves us is rising up out of death and entering INTO Yeshua's Life:

Rom 5:10
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to Elohim by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

And this is what baptism is all about. ONLY someone who has been sprinkled with the Gospel, and understands their involvement and complicity in causing Yeshua to suffer so, can make the pledge and answer to Elohim to KEEP a clear conscience by being immersed INTO the Word of Elohim and rising up INTO the LIFE of Messiah, and this will save. Just consider what it means to be baptized INTO the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They ALL have the SAME NAME (John 5:43, John 14:26, John 17:11, and Rev 19:13)...The Word, and this is the NAME were are to be IMMERSED into and washed by:

Heb 10:22
(22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Eph 5:26-27
(26) That He might sanctify and cleanse it (The Church) with the washing of water by the word,
(27) That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it (The Church) should be holy and without blemish.

Can you see this e.r.m? The washing involved with baptism is symbolic of being washed INTO or BY the Word of Elohim and this LIVING IN the Word, in the LIFE of Messiah truly saves us and delivers us out of sin to where we will be holy and without blemish. I have to go now, but I hope this has helped. KB

sojourner said:

I think you're overanalyzing here and ascribing a far more intricate and nuanced theology to Paul than is actually exhibited.

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Its's actually simpler when one goes by what's written, such as we are baptized into Christ Jesus, Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, those who believe and are baptized will be saved those who do not believe will be condemned, etc. It is more complicated and indirect to try and give "the hidden meaning", that is not written in scripture, like in Romans 6:3,6 Paul was actually saying that one enters into Christ through grace, and baptism is irrelavent. Doing this actually takes more work and more analysis than just trusting what the text says.

being baptized into Christ is being baptized into his death (which is an act of faith in love -- not of substitutionary atonement).

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According to Acts 2:38, it not substitutionary, it's the original. Christ is the source, repentance and baptism are the means.

We are children of God through the faith of Christ -- not through some esoteric act we perform.

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I thought you said everyone is already saved, faith or not.
In Acts 2:41 Three thousand were baptized in public, for the purpose explicitly stated in Acts 2:38. I don't know how you call it esoteric. Right after the days of the Apostles, every early Christian writer was in agreement that baptism was for remission of sins. That was the ubiquitous consensus. I don't know how you're calling this esoteric.
These days, thousands upon thousands have been baptized a la Acts 2:38, for forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit. I don't know how you're calling this esoteric.

Baptism is simply an outward and visible sign that we have acknowledged that oneness with God in Christ through the faith he exhibited for us and with us

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This statement is complicated. Since there is no scripture that says this anywhere, one has to concatenate and conjur fancy arguments to try to make this statement make sense, that takes a lot of work.

It's simpler just to go by the scripture's definition of baptism.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Done!

See how much simpler that is?

Ken Brown said:

Hi e.r.m, yes it has been awhile and we should stay in touch. But for right now, I would like to say a little more about baptism.

Baptism directly comes from Numbers 19. Both the baptism of John and the baptism of Messiah. The baptism John was performing was a result of Israelites going through the rites of purification (John 3:25), and they were being washed as commanded from Numbers 19. In this physical ritual, a red heifer was slaughtered, and burned outside the camp, and it's ashes were collected into a vessel and living or running water was added to them. Then the priest would take hyssop and dip it into the mixture and then sprinkle the unclean on the 3rd and 7th days. Just consider, those who were being sprinkled with this sooty mixture of ashes and water, became rather disgusting looking. It wasn't a pleasant sight, and what John was doing was immersing those who had this mixture sprinkled on them and washed it off.

The baptism found in Messiah involves the same process, but on a different level, a Spiritual level. Yeshua is the Red Heifer, and just as the bodies of those beasts were burned outside the camp, so also Yeshua suffered outside the city gate (Heb 13:11-12). The burning of the red heifer is symbolic of Yeshua suffering, and after His suffering was complete, what remained was His dead body (The Ashes). His dead body was placed into a vessel (the tomb) and as Num 19:15 states, all open vessels had to have a lid fastened to them, just as what happened to the tomb. Then, LIVING WATER was ADDED to the Ashes in the Vessel. What is LIVING WATER, but ETERNAL LIFE. Eternal Life was required to be added to the dead body of Yeshua just as Numbers 19:17 commands, and when all of this Gospel is sprinkled with HYSSOP upon sinners, they are covered with the soot of killing Yeshua and being rather disgusting looking in their sins. So what does a person do once they find out about their involvement with the preparing of those Ashes which was sprinkled upon them? They REPENT and submit to baptism (Acts 2:36-38), and it's not for the purpose of removing any physical defilement, but rather it's a pledge or answer toward Elohim in keeping a clear conscience (1 Pet 3:21). And how do we keep a clear conscience? By being raised up IN the resurrection of Yeshua and LIVING in HIM. Prior to this we were dead in our sins and were joined into the death of Messiah, because as Paul states that when He died, all died (2 Cor 5:14), and this reconciles Elohim. Everyone is dead and Paul did not view anyone as being alive (2 Cor 5:16), and since everyone is dead in Messiah, Elohim is reconciled, but this does not save us. What saves us is rising up out of death and entering INTO Yeshua's Life:

Rom 5:10
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to Elohim by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

And this is what baptism is all about. ONLY someone who has been sprinkled with the Gospel, and understands their involvement and complicity in causing Yeshua to suffer so, can make the pledge and answer to Elohim to KEEP a clear conscience by being immersed INTO the Word of Elohim and rising up INTO the LIFE of Messiah, and this will save. Just consider what it means to be baptized INTO the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They ALL have the SAME NAME (John 5:43, John 14:26, John 17:11, and Rev 19:13)...The Word, and this is the NAME were are to be IMMERSED into and washed by:

Heb 10:22
(22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Eph 5:26-27
(26) That He might sanctify and cleanse it (The Church) with the washing of water by the word,
(27) That he might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it (The Church) should be holy and without blemish.

Can you see this e.r.m? The washing involved with baptism is symbolic of being washed INTO or BY the Word of Elohim and this LIVING IN the Word, in the LIFE of Messiah truly saves us and delivers us out of sin to where we will be holy and without blemish. I have to go now, but I hope this has helped. KB

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It's going to take me a while to digest this.