What does Matthew 1:22 mean?

Sleeppy · Jul 8, 2013

*I have however met Jews who accept that Jesus is fulfilling Messianic prophecy. Just to add to that point.

CMike · Jul 9, 2013

They are called Christians.

CMike · Jul 9, 2013

Sleeppy said:
I agree. The prophecies are very clear. And being fulfilled even now, by David, by Elijah and by Jesus. Thank you for proving the point, yet again, that the messiah is Jesus.. Seeing as there still hasn't been a single Jew yet, to step up, or that I've spoken to, who can provide even an explanation of how the prophecies fit together for an alternative.. I suggest you at least consider your own position, because at this point you can't even reconsider.

Since they are all dead, they are not fulfilling prophesies.

CG Didymus · Jul 9, 2013

Brickjectivity in post #93 said:

None of Matthew's fulfillments are direct quotes nor have source text that predicts anything
Matthew 2:15 ---- Hosea 11:1 ------> No prediction
Matthew 2:17 ----- Jeremiah 31:15 -----> No prediction
Matthew 2:23 ----- NO OT QUOTE ---> No prediction
Matthew 13:14 ----- Isaiah 6:9 SOURCE DIFFERS ----> Also no prediction
Matthew 13:35 ------ Psalm 78:2 ----> No prediction
Matthew 26:54 ------ NO OT QUOTE ----> No prediction
Matthew 26:56 ------ NO OT QUOTE ----> No prediction
Matthew 27:9 ------ allusion in Jer, Quote in Zech ----> Also no prediction

It is clear that Matthew 1:22 should not, must not and never ought to be a direct quote of any scripture

Isn't a prophecy a prediction? And, a fulfilled prophecy an event that matches that prediction?

In CMikes list of prophecies in post #85 one of them was:

24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them.

That implies the Law doesnt it? Which group of Christians even cares about anything to do with Jewish Law? Maybe the Ebionites and Nazarenes? Can mainstream Christianity answer CMike's list of prophecies? Other than saying that they will be fulfilled in the second coming? Yet the "prophecies" that Christians can claim as being fulfilled are all vague and many are out of context.

As jtartar said in post #41

God, Jesus' Father had these things recorded by Isaiah, and Jesus fulfilled every prophecy recorded about him, Matt 5:18, Luke 24:44-50.
Just before Jesus died on the tree, he said that it was finished, meaning that he had fulfilled all the prophecies about the Messiah, John 19:28-30.

Most Christians I know believe this is true, yet, when it comes to CMike's list, they say those won't happen until the end? So, they "all" haven't been fulfilled--the hard ones to fake, the ones that if they were fulfilled would be obvious.

Sleepy in post #51 said:

Jesus was born of virginity, regardless of what verse was given. If Matthew selected a verse but neglected its context, in the face of Scripture and among those who know it by heart- what is the implication?

"...was born"? How do I know? Trust Matthew's word? Even if he "neglected its context"?

I have to go with Rainbow Mage in post #3:

Its a verse the author of Matthew pulled out of context from Isaiah to construct the virgin birth
The Hebrew word isn't even virgin, and there's nothing prophetic about its original setting.

And HonestJoe in post #6

all this assumes that Jesus' virgin birth wasn't just an invention for the very purpose of fulfilling this prophesy.

And again Rainbow Mage in posts #8 and #10

Exactly. There's way too much supposed fulfilled prophesy, proving Jesus's mythology was constructed from the OT among other places

Matthew tried to make Hosea fit Jesus as well, when it isn't-
When Israel was a child I loved him, and out Egypt I called my son

What Roger 1440 said in post #48 is very true:

Some of Jesuss followers believed he was the messiah. If the messiah must fulfill specific prophesies and his followers believe Jesus is the messiah, then in the minds of his followers Jesus must have fulfilled those prophesies, regardless if his followers seen them fulfilled or not.

Christians are taught that Jesus had to fulfill certain prophecies, the ones in the NT. In the minds of those that choose to believe, these are real prophecies and they were fulfilled by only one person, Jesus. Did he go to Egypt? Was he born from a virgin? Did he ride into town on a donkey? So what, and how is anyone going to know for sure? The big question is: When are CMike's list of prophecies going to happen? And, will it still be Jesus as the one who is doing the fulfilling?

Brickjectivity · Jul 9, 2013

CG Didymus said:
Isn't a prophecy a prediction? And, a fulfilled prophecy an event that matches that prediction?

Not necessarily. Matthew 3:5 is a good example where Jesus gets baptized by John, he says "To fulfill all righteousness." Here we have fulfillment of an event that was never predicted, yet it does have meaning. John is 'Elijah' which makes Jesus 'Elisha'. The fulfillment is at least in this case not the fulfillment of a prediction but of imagery. It is far different from what I once thought a fulfillment was.

Sleeppy · Jul 10, 2013

Brickjectivity said:
Not necessarily. Matthew 3:5 is a good example where Jesus gets baptized by John, he says "To fulfill all righteousness." Here we have fulfillment of an event that was never predicted, yet it does have meaning. John is 'Elijah' which makes Jesus 'Elisha'. The fulfillment is at least in this case not the fulfillment of a prediction but of imagery. It is far different from what I once thought a fulfillment was.

Ezekiel 36 mentions John's baptism.

Me Myself · Jul 10, 2013

Pegg said:
Considering the culture at the time, a maiden (young girl) would be a virgin because that is what was required of young girls...they remained chaste in virginity while unmarried.

But many virgins werent what they were "supposed" to be, and without doubt many maidens gave birth before Jesus.

roger1440 · Jul 10, 2013

CG Didymus said:
Brickjectivity in post #93 said:

Isn't a prophecy a prediction? And, a fulfilled prophecy an event that matches that prediction?

In CMikes list of prophecies in post #85 one of them was: That implies the Law doesnt it? Which group of Christians even cares about anything to do with Jewish Law? Maybe the Ebionites and Nazarenes? Can mainstream Christianity answer CMike's list of prophecies? Other than saying that they will be fulfilled in the second coming? Yet the "prophecies" that Christians can claim as being fulfilled are all vague and many are out of context.

As jtartar said in post #41
Most Christians I know believe this is true, yet, when it comes to CMike's list, they say those won't happen until the end? So, they "all" haven't been fulfilled--the hard ones to fake, the ones that if they were fulfilled would be obvious.

Sleepy in post #51 said: "...was born"? How do I know? Trust Matthew's word? Even if he "neglected its context"?

I have to go with Rainbow Mage in post #3:
And HonestJoe in post #6
And again Rainbow Mage in posts #8 and #10

What Roger 1440 said in post #48 is very true:

roger1440 said:

Some of Jesuss followers believed he was the messiah. If the messiah must fulfill specific prophesies and his followers believe Jesus is the messiah, then in the minds of his followers Jesus must have fulfilled those prophesies, regardless if his followers seen them fulfilled or not.

Click to expand...

Christians are taught that Jesus had to fulfill certain prophecies, the ones in the NT. In the minds of those that choose to believe, these are real prophecies and they were fulfilled by only one person, Jesus. Did he go to Egypt? Was he born from a virgin? Did he ride into town on a donkey? So what, and how is anyone going to know for sure? The big question is: When are CMike's list of prophecies going to happen? And, will it still be Jesus as the one who is doing the fulfilling?

Did he go to Egypt? Yes, if it is interpreted allegorically. He stayed there until Herod's death in order to fulfill what was declared by the Lord through the prophet when he said, "Out of Egypt I called my Son." (Matt. 2:15). The author of Matthew is quoting from Hosea 11:1, When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. The nation of Israel is Gods first born. Jesus is meant as a personification of Israel.

Did he ride into town on a donkey? Maybe one donkey, maybe two donkeys, depending on which Gospel you read, LOL. The problem lies in the interpretation of Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. Is Zechariah using a sort of parallelism? In other words, is he writing about the same donkey in two verses or two different donkeys? The Rabbis themselves were not in agreement during the first century. If the Gospel writers pulled those verses out of the Jewish Cannon without witnessing the Jesuss entrance it would come to no surprise why they would not be in agreement. Simply put, no one knows for sure how many donkeys Zechariah meant. Here is another example of parallelism. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Any Catholic would know this pray refers to one person, not two. Here is an 11 page explanation on just Zechariah 9:9. Its in the PDF format. It not a easy verse to understand. http://ancienthebrewpoetry.typepad.com/ancient_hebrew_poetry/files/zechariah_9.pdf

Brickjectivity · Jul 10, 2013

Sleeppy said:
Ezekiel 36 mentions John's baptism.

It mentions sprinkling, but it says in the same breathe the people of Israel will be gathered into their own land from the nations where they had(ve) been dispersed to. If it is John's Baptism then there is some difficulty, because this did not literally happen during John's lifetime. On the other hand John B. may have preached that despite Roman occupation and enslaved Jews throughout the Empire that this cleansing was part of his baptism. Some questions I don't ever expect to have answered, and this one is looking complicated.

Sleeppy · Jul 10, 2013

Brickjectivity said:
It mentions sprinkling, but it says in the same breathe the people of Israel will be gathered into their own land from the nations where they had(ve) been dispersed to. If it is John's Baptism then there is some difficulty, because this did not literally happen during John's lifetime. On the other hand John B. may have preached that despite Roman occupation and enslaved Jews throughout the Empire that this cleansing was part of his baptism. Some questions I don't ever expect to have answered, and this one is looking complicated.

The prophecies don't all happen at once. It's happening now that Israel has its borders and Jews have a target to go into. But Israel could never truly have borders. The Messiah is supposed to rule the Earth and the heavens/space. Because He ends death and resurrects the entire history of mankind. So naturally, with so many sons promised for Israel and otherwise, the eternal King of Kings must expand the borders of Israel to accommodate. Jesus said He would prepare many rooms in Heaven.

Brickjectivity · Jul 10, 2013

The people alive at the time saw Rome the occupying power, enslavement and cruelty. No predictions were completed, yet Jesus said John was Elijah (come to restore all things). Jesus preached the kingdom of heaven had arrived, but the world he knew was oppressed by evil kings. CG Dydimus asked "isn't a fulfilled prophecy an event that matches that prediction?" No, it isn't to Jesus. Jesus used prophecy to teach when to all appearances it seemed irrelevant. He asked his disciples to accept that John B. was Elijah, that restoration had come, that they were living in a great Jubilee. Only in belief could these things be true since by all appearances they were not.

CG Didymus · Jul 10, 2013

Sleeppy said:
The prophecies don't all happen at once...

Brickjectivity talked about a fulfillment not being based on a prediction but of imagery. In post #109 referring to Ezekiel 36, he added:

It mentions sprinkling, but it says in the same breathe the people of Israel will be gathered into their own land from the nations where they had(ve) been dispersed to. If it is John's Baptism then there is some difficulty, because this did not literally happen during John's lifetime.

And Roger1440 said in response to the question if Jesus really went to Egypt that:

Yes, if it is interpreted allegorically.

So prophecies can be broken up into pieces and fulfilled centuries later? They can be "imagery"? They can be allegorical? Words within a verse can be shuffled or changed to suit the "fulfillment"? Like Ezekiel 36:25 in my Bible does say "sprinkle." Isn't baptism supposed to be immersion?

My main problem is with those Christians that pretend they believe the Bible literally but use imagery, allegory etc as loopholes to get the Bible to say whatever they want it to say. I can use those things also. Jesus is like the One True God compared to us. He, in essence, rose from the dead to make us spiritually alive, Jesus did return, in Spirit etc, etc, but then I become a new ager or a Baha'i. And then all the born-againers complain that I'm not taking the Bible literally. So where do you draw the line?

Brickjectivity · Jul 10, 2013

CG Didymus said:
So prophecies can be broken up into pieces and fulfilled centuries later? They can be "imagery"? They can be allegorical? Words within a verse can be shuffled or changed to suit the "fulfillment"? Like Ezekiel 36:25 in my Bible does say "sprinkle." Isn't baptism supposed to be immersion?

Zechariah the prophet is (likely) talking about a ritual washing which is a restoration of people to fellowship. That ritual washing is likely what baptism and sprinkling come from. For Historical background there is a short text called the Didache from around 200AD which discusses whether to dunk new converts or sprinkle them depending upon whether cold running water is available. Many people think the Did-ache is a genuine record, so it could be that sprinkling and immersion are equivalent. I don't personally think that there ought to be disputes about something so vaguely understood.

Prophecies are mainly protests against injustices. The love in the prophet compels them to hate evil more than most people around them, making themselves very miserable. This illuminates the meaning of the laws as prophets live through prejudice and undeserved punishments as they are punished for speaking out against wrongs. Often it costs them their lives. Its possible that God speaking to prophets is itself an allegory for this painful personal process. Peter the Apostle considers the prophets as seekers seeking out the things of God for the sake of future generations. (I Peter 1:10), but when you read the prophets they don't sound like seekers. They make seeking the LORD sound easier than it actually is.

My main problem is with those Christians that pretend they believe the Bible literally but use imagery, allegory etc as loopholes to get the Bible to say whatever they want it to say.

A lot of people want to write them off, because they are difficult to deal with. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen.

CG Didymus · Jul 10, 2013

Brickjectivity said:
A lot of people want to write them off (the literal believers), because they are difficult to deal with. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen.

Well, what are you? I'll listen to you. Actually, I tried to believe as a literal Christian. The problem was that I was first a Baha'i. One week I preached to Christians that Jesus had returned as the new prophet for this time, Baha'u'llah. The next week I converted to Christianity and preached to the Baha'is that they needed to be saved. As the story goes, I went to a Jew and asked that since they both say they came from Judaism, what do you say. He told me and I quit both Christianity and the Baha'i Faith and decided I had better ask a lot of questions before I commit to any one religion again. It's been 30 years. But, I will listen to you. Your religion of "Hope" sounds pretty good.

roger1440 · Jul 10, 2013

CG Didymus said:
My main problem is with those Christians that pretend they believe the Bible literally but use imagery, allegory etc as loopholes to get the Bible to say whatever they want it to say. I can use those things also. Jesus is like the One True God compared to us. He, in essence, rose from the dead to make us spiritually alive, Jesus did return, in Spirit etc, etc, but then I become a new ager or a Baha'i. And then all the born-againers complain that I'm not taking the Bible literally. So where do you draw the line?

If there was an easy answer biblical scholars would be out of a job. We wouldnt want Bart D. Ehrman on the unemployment line would we? He could end up as a squeegee guy in Manhattan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeegee_man

CMike · Jul 11, 2013

Sleeppy said:
Ezekiel 36 mentions John's baptism.

Nothing in the Torah, prophets or scriptures infers, implies, or states any prophesy related to jesus and/or his minions.

CMike · Jul 11, 2013

Sleeppy said:
The prophecies don't all happen at once. It's happening now that Israel has its borders and Jews have a target to go into. But Israel could never truly have borders. The Messiah is supposed to rule the Earth and the heavens/space. Because He ends death and resurrects the entire history of mankind. So naturally, with so many sons promised for Israel and otherwise, the eternal King of Kings must expand the borders of Israel to accommodate. Jesus said He would prepare many rooms in Heaven.

The messiah doesn't end death. The messiah will have no divine power.

Only G-D can end death and have other divine powers.

Sleeppy · Jul 11, 2013

CMike said:
The messiah doesn't end death. The messiah will have no divine power.

Only G-D can end death and have other divine powers.

Daniel 9:24-27

Just one of the prophets saying the Messiah will end sin. Just one prophet who prophesies the resurrection.

CMike · Jul 12, 2013

And it says that where?

Sleeppy · Jul 12, 2013

CMike said:
And it says that where?

You continue reading. If you interpret and follow God's command, do you live? Or do you die?

Isaiah 53
Psalm 2
Psalm 16:10

What does Matthew 1:22 mean?

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