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Fatalism/Determinism

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I was recently researching the difference between Fatalism and Determinism.

In Fatalism - Nothing can change what will happen, it will come about whatever is done.

In Determinism - Everything changes, therefore everything in principle can be changed.

Now this confuses me, because, can't Determinism lead to Fatalism or the other way around? Every change is already fated, there's no will, it will happen the way it is going to happen.

Yes, things can change the future, but those things that change the future already were determined, the future is set, as are those "changes" that are going to "change the future".

Do you understand what I'm saying?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'd be interested to where you got the idea that
"In Determinism - Everything changes, therefore everything in principle can be changed."
because
"Determinism is the philosophical idea that every event or state of affairs, including every human decision and action, is the inevitable and necessary consequence of antecedent states of affairs."
source
which in its most extreme form (hard determinism) is consistent with your notion of fatalism. However, philosophers generally regard fatalism as . . .
"a special form of determinism where every event in the future is fated to happen. Fatalism does not normally require that any causal laws or higher powers are involved. Que sera, sera.
source
 
Last edited:

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
I'd be interested to where you got the idea that
"In Determinism - Everything changes, therefore everything in principle can be changed."
because
"Determinism is the philosophical idea that every event or state of affairs, including every human decision and action, is the inevitable and necessary consequence of antecedent states of affairs."
source
which in its most extreme form (hard determinism) is consistent with your notion of fatalism. However, philosophers generally regard fatalism as . . .
"a special form of determinism where every event in the future is fated to happen. Fatalism does not normally require that any causal laws or higher powers are involved. Que sera, sera.
source

I looked at a few different pages of what is the difference between determinism and fatalism. While the definitions seemed pretty similar unless you are to go deep into the definitions of words.

Most people, and yes, it's just common people as I couldn't find an objective source of fatalism vs determinism, suggested that as the primary difference, that determinists say that X determines Y and Y determines Z while Fatalism says Z is fated even if Y is determined.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was recently researching the difference between Fatalism and Determinism.

In Fatalism - Nothing can change what will happen, it will come about whatever is done.

In Determinism - Everything changes, therefore everything in principle can be changed.

Now this confuses me, because, can't Determinism lead to Fatalism or the other way around? Every change is already fated, there's no will, it will happen the way it is going to happen.

Fatalism is a purely philosophical question. Aristotle, AFAIK, was the first to offer a philosophically-based argument for fatalism (which he didn't believe to be true), and then tried to show why this argument fails. His argument for fatalism was better than his counter-argument.

The argument he made rests on the truth-value of statements. Imagine I say "it's going to rain in Boston tomorrow". That appears to be a logical proposition. Logical propositions have truth values, and although we can't know the truth value of such a statement when it is made, we will tomorrow: either it will rain, in which case I was right and what I said true, or the opposite.

Either way, if one asserts that the statement has a truth value when I make it, then it is (like all propositions in classical logic) either true or false. If it is true, then necessarily it will rain tomorrow, because otherwise my statement wouldn't be true. If it is false, then necessarily it won't rain tomorrow because otherwise my statement would be true.

The hangman paradox is one argument I use against the type made by Aristotle. On a given Sunday, a judge tells a man sentenced to die two things:
1) That the man will be hanged some time before the week ends,
&
2) That the actual day will be a surprise.

The man reasons that if he makes it to Friday, he will be hanged on Saturday. But he will know that he will be hanged on Saturday, and therefore it won't be a surprise. As it must be a surprise, he can't be hanged on Friday. But what if he makes it to Thursday? Well, we know he can't be hanged on Friday, and as it's Thursday he'd have to be hanged that day. But once again it won't be a surprise.

This reasoning goes on and the man logically determines that he can't be hanged.

So when he is hanged the next day, he is surprised.

One way of approaching this paradox that I find illustrative is that it depends upon the truth value of statements concerning the future, and under the assumption they have truth values, logical deductions using them fail.

Fatalism is simply the belief that something, whether God or propositions about the future, entails that everything is fated to be.


Determinism is another beast entirely, although this is a relatively recent change (and it is not always true; determinism is still sometimes used as a synonym for fatalism).

When physics began to be more and more developed and the sciences deemed to be different than a type of philosophy, determinism was applied to systems (e.g., the solar system or mixing dropping pellets of pure sodium into water). The origin of physics is mechanics: the study of how things move in what ways and when and why. So we develop a formal language (mathematics, and in particular calculus) that allows us to write down models/equations of planetary motion or how much force it takes to push a bolder on the top of a hill so that it will roll down.

Equations like F=ma and classical kinetics enable one to model systems such that we know in advance how they will be have. Given a fully developed prototype of a Steyr IWS 2000 with a barrel length 47.24 inches (and that is equipped with a hydro-pneumatic sleeve to reduce recoil), a factory scope with a properly aligned MOA for a range of 1,000 yards (that is then further modified just before firing to account for the direction of wind, temperature, etc.), and loaded with a 15.2mm 540 grain Armor Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot round that has a muzzle velocity of 4757.29 feet per second, I can tell you how many inches of homogenized (rolled) steel armor the round will penetrate at that range (1,000 yards).

The more accurate my instruments for ranging, temperature, air pressure, humidity, wind velocity (keeping in mind that velocity is speed with a direction), etc., the more I will no exactly what will happen before I fire.

That's a deterministic system (not just the rifle, but the entire process, the round, the target and the target's material make-up, etc.). I can determine in advance what will happen. In classical physics, determinism went from being more or less identical to fatalism to describing models which determine the outcome of some system in advance. And as scientists became very good at doing this, eventually it was just sort of taken as given that all systems were governed by deterministic laws such that if you had Laplace's "demon" (not to be confused with Maxwell's demon, which concerns a violation of thermodynamics), you could determine everything that will ever happen. And within classical physics, determinism was a sort of assumed postulate as there were no nondeterministic laws. If we couldn't predict something exactly it was because whatever tools we were using, from our math to our measuring devices, weren't adequate enough.

Determinism of this type is not purely philosophical but fundamentally a matter of physics. What makes it a matter of philosophy now is the advent of modern physics which is no longer purely deterministic laws, nor is time an independent entity. Both relativistic physics and quantum physics yield different possible answers to determinism. In the former, at most we can say that if the quantum world is deterministic, it's very hard to see how. In the latter, movement in space is movement in time (they aren't separate concepts). So a star that you've looked at your whole life every night may very have never actually been there since long before you were born. However, as light travels at a finite speed, you are always seeing the past. Furthermore, a the laws of physics hold in every frame of reference, changes of coordinates in 4D geometry (specifically Minkowski) mean changes in a position of spacetime.

Two sentient beings may have similar frames of references with respect to "time", much like the way everyone on this planet does. However, it can also be true of a being hundreds of lightyears away. The problem is that at that distance, angular movement and the resulting change in coordinates means that the "now" of the sentient being (which right before experienced a "now" like we do on earth), can suddenly be a "now" hundreds of years in the future relative to our "now", or hundreds of years in the past. Arguably (and it has been argued), this entails determinism: every "now" the past for some other planet and the future for some other planet. Therefore, every "now" is happening, was happening, and will happen depending on coordinates in Minkowski space. It's true that those observes on planets with "future nows" relative to our "now" cannot (at least as far as we know) know what's going on in their "past" and our "now" until the distance between us in "time" (i.e., a distance metric in Minkowski space) has passed (i.e., if their "now" was 100 years in the future relative to our "now", they could only learn what was happening at our "now" after 100 years). However, they are still 100 years ahead of our "now".
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I looked at a few different pages of what is the difference between determinism and fatalism. While the definitions seemed pretty similar unless you are to go deep into the definitions of words.

That's what philosophers do. They spend literally hundreds and hundreds of years arguing over the nuances of concepts. Physics, both classical and modern, just made it worse.

Fatalism is just fatalism. There isn't wiggle room. Everything that happens because it was fated to happen (the why it is fated is more interesting, but the concept is still an all-or-nothing one).

Determinism, however, has gone from being fatalism without the need to appeal to a fate (which over time wasn't even a property of fatalism anymore), to being far more physical. Fatalism has no laws of physics, no spacetime coordinates, no quantum indeterminancy, or anything else like that. Calvinism is a fatalistic form of Christianity, yet they have no more need to describe why fatalism holds than did those who actually believed in the fates (the three sisters).

Determinism as it is most commonly used is a scientific or metaphysical concept. It is constructed not from abstract philosophy or from religion, but from its simple origin in Newtonian mechanics. As soon as we started to predict the future states of systems, we stumbled upon determinism. And as we discovered more and more about the things that cause systems to behave as they do, the more determinism seemed a consequence of physics rather than a constructed philosophy.

So, one difference is that fatalism is rooted in philosophy, and constructed abstractly, while determinism in the modern sense was not constructed at all- it was merely a side-effect.


Most people, and yes, it's just common people as I couldn't find an objective source of fatalism vs determinism, suggested that as the primary difference, that determinists say that X determines Y and Y determines Z while Fatalism says Z is fated even if Y is determined.

Historically, very little separates the two positions. For fatalism, the OED gives "The belief in fatality; the doctrine that all things are determined by fate; a particular form of this doctrine.
In early use not distinguished from ‘the doctrine of necessity’, i.e. the doctrine that all events take place in accordance with unvarying laws of causation. In strict etymological propriety, and in the best modern usage, it is restricted to the view which regards events as predetermined by an arbitrary decree."

However, this was more or less determinism:
1846 W. Hamilton in T. Reid Wks. There are two schemes of Necessity—the Necessitation by efficient—the Necessitation by final causes. The former is brute or blind Fate; the latter rational Determinism.
1851 H. L. Mansel Prolegomena Logica App. 303 The latter hypothesis is Determinism, a necessity no less rigid than fatalism.
1855 W. Thomson in Oxf. Ess. 181 The theory of Determinism, in which the will is regarded as determined or swayed to a particular course by external inducements and formed habits, so that the consciousness of freedom rests chiefly upon an oblivion of the antecedents to our choice.
1866 Contemp. Rev. 1 465 He arrived at a system of absolute determinism, which entirely takes away man's free will, and with it his responsibility.
1880 W. L. Courtney in Abbot Hellenica (1880) 257 Epicurus..was an opponent of Fatalism, not of Determinism.

The main historical difference is that fatalism is all-or-nothing. There were never and can be no "epistemological" fatalism like there can with determinism. Also, determinism was initially much more about free will. All the quotes above are long after Newton, and physics a well-established systematic framework within which everything worked according to specific laws. But if that is true, then it must be true that humans (being physical systems) are also completely deterministic, and therefore free will (the ability to do something other than that which you did) is an illusion. However, we certainly seem to make choices. So if we don't, why do we seem to, and if we do, then what makes us different from deterministic systems?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I was recently researching the difference between Fatalism and Determinism.

In Fatalism - Nothing can change what will happen, it will come about whatever is done.

In Determinism - Everything changes, therefore everything in principle can be changed.

Now this confuses me, because, can't Determinism lead to Fatalism or the other way around? Every change is already fated, there's no will, it will happen the way it is going to happen.

Yes, things can change the future, but those things that change the future already were determined, the future is set, as are those "changes" that are going to "change the future".

Do you understand what I'm saying?
Let's call this determinism "interdependence," with all things in relation to all others affecting the current state of each. Then "fatalism" can be seen to stand either in contrast with it or in harmony with it, as you suggest above. Relativity loves everyone (and everything).

Most people use 'determinism' to mean nothing more or less than fatalism, in an absolute sense.
 
I was recently researching the difference between Fatalism and Determinism.

In Fatalism - Nothing can change what will happen, it will come about whatever is done.

In Determinism - Everything changes, therefore everything in principle can be changed.

Now this confuses me, because, can't Determinism lead to Fatalism or the other way around? Every change is already fated, there's no will, it will happen the way it is going to happen.

Yes, things can change the future, but those things that change the future already were determined, the future is set, as are those "changes" that are going to "change the future".

Do you understand what I'm saying?
Important question. Would you even say something good, bad or ugly, in any degree, if a rejoinder made your very innocently indifferent words look really embarrassing, so that later, you might see a profoundness to the situation, and mention it in close company? It seems, we would not, but we do. We are so worried that we might make a person look like an infant, and we might behave in a manner which he/she minds, and have egg on face, thereafter. We make a living, and make ourselves important, by putting other things rather than the first egg, to the rejoinder of child/man/woman. We mind, as much as the other person, and we use our situation to advantage, as much as we do the situation we put the other person in.
 
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