Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
No. Is that a joke?
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What does Matthew 1:22 mean?
- Thread starter roger1440
- Start date
No. Is that a joke?
CMike
Well-Known Member
He may be the christian god and messiah, but he is not the god known to the jews.
CMike
Well-Known Member
I think it's a good point.
The messiah will fulfill all the messianic prophesies.
That's how the jews wil know he is the messiah.
Other than riding a donkey and being from Bethlehem jesus fulfilled none.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You don't know what you say. If you did, you would credit the entirety of the gospels' testimonies, or none. Instead, you chose only to credit two things. Also, the messiah you are looking for is supposed to be a man, doing things only God's power could accomplish. Who today knows the true lineages of David? What man can cause the kingdom of Israel to rule the entire earth? What man can stop sickness and death? What warring king are you looking for?
CMike
Well-Known Member
I am not at all referring to the christian bible.
If tribal lineage is not known there is no tribal lineage, that jew is considered part of the general population, and Israelite.
I am referring to actual prophesies that were in the Torah concerning the prophesies of the jewish messiah.
Here are some of the prophesies. All will be fulflled when the messiah comes.
Michah 4
3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore. (world peace)
Ezekiel 37
Yechezkel - Chapter 37 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land.(All jews will come to Israel)
22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore. (one unified king)
23. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God.(all nations will worship one G-D)
24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them. (A descendent of David) Tribal lineage goes solely by the father
25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.(all the jews will stay in Israel forever)
26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.(peace and the temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever)
28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever." (all nations will worship one G-D. The temple will be rebuilt and stand forever)
How many of the prophesies did jesus fulfill?
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You keep saying you will know by the fulfilments, but considering the scope of these requirements there is no way you could tell, until after a potential king is crowned and ruling for quite some time. And according to the prophets, this king would rule forever, having all the time in the world. Aside from Jesus, who did come by Adam, Abraham and even David's flesh- there is no other king in sight. Even thousands of years after the temple's fall. Even more thousands after David. Time is shortening. And you acknowledge the responsibility to recognise a man thousands of years in names after David? How will you verify even that small detail, before you crown him?
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You expect one dying man (after Adam's flesh) to both reprove and repair the entire world to peace? In what time frame? And by what power over the death of Adam?
Will the whole of Israel be filled before or after the resurrection? And by which father will they be called Jews?
Answer me these. Then I will show you how they are being fulfilled by Jesus and His kingdom.
Will the whole of Israel be filled before or after the resurrection? And by which father will they be called Jews?
Answer me these. Then I will show you how they are being fulfilled by Jesus and His kingdom.
CMike
Well-Known Member
The messiah will be a mortal, human being.
Jesus is dead.
He didn't fulfill the prophesies.
In fact, the opposite happened.
The prophesy was is that the temple will be rebuilt and stand forever. Instead shortly after jesus death the temple was destroyed.
Also no jewish messiah would ever claim to be a divine being. All the power will and is from G-D.
The fact that jesus claimed tha he was a divine being within itself negates him from being a jewish leader of any sort.
G-D stated numerous times that there is only him and to trust only him.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You weren't able to answer any of those questions. You have no idea who you're looking for, because you can't even put the prophecies together in any logical manner.
1) Jesus, like Elijah, ascended into heaven. And like Elisha received of Elijah, his spirit, the world is filled with those of Jesus' Spirit. You did want a king who conquers death?
2) How do you rebuild a temple that is still standing? Also, what is the purpose of the temple?
3) What does it mean to claim divinity? While of David's flesh, He called Himself the Son of Man. And as you acknowledged, saying 'all the power is from God', God's power came and rested on Jesus, leaving Him only at the cross.
4) You say rightly that there is one God. Every man from Adam onward houses power from God and is a house of prayer. And while Adam and every prophet were destroyed, Jesus will resurrect them along with all of mankind. But a prerequisite is space to inhabit, correct? Israel cannot have borders, because the promise to inhabit Israel extends to sons Abraham can never number.
CMike
Well-Known Member
I didn't answer the questions because they didn't make sense to me.
The prophesies are simple. I can easily put them in a logical manner. They are from Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.
They are:
- World peace
- The messiah will be one unified king of Israel
- All the jews will come to Israel
- All the jews will stay in Israel
- The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever.
I didn't create these prophesies, G-D did.
Elijah went to heaven. However, he died.
Jesus died. The world is not filled with jesus' "spirit". Jesus is long gone.
No king will conquer death. G-D can conquer death. A king is and will be a mortal man.
You don't rebuild a temple that was still standing. That's one of the many reasons that the messianic prophesis has had nothing to do with jesus.
The purpose of the temple is a central place to worship G-D. Also sacrifices will be done there. Not all sacrifices were for sin, some were for celebrations.
I'll explain it this way. G-D said that Moses will be the greatest of jewish prophets.
During the Passover seder the story of Passover is retold in great depth.
Moses is mentioned only once during the retelling of the story. And he is mentioned only as a humble servant.
None of the miracles and plagues during this time were done by Moses. They were all done by G-D.
The fact that christianity by definition worships jesus, is extremely contrary to the central tenent of what G-D said in the Torah.
That tenent is to worship only G-D, and to not put faith in anyone but the one G-D.
To do otherwise is considered one of the most severest sins for a jew to do. It is considered idol worship.
The jewish messiah will not only not be worshipped in any form, but to worship him is the greatest affront to G-D and is considered idol worship.
Jesus will not do anything. He is dead.
The only power, according to the Torah, rests with G-D, and G-D only.
Israel does have borders.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
You haven't provided logic at all. You've only provided shallow denunciations, based on your own whim. You're still not answering the questions, only restating the things my questions were based on. So, I'll ask this one question. Is David dead?
Excuse me, Sleeppy, but this thread is about what Matthew 1:22 means. Its not a quote from Isaiah and cannot be if it is to be one of Matthew's fulfillments. Matthew goes out of his way, apparently, to make sure and fulfill absolutely no predictions. None of Matthew's fulfillments are direct quotes nor have source text that predicts anything, NONE. I will list them.
Matthew 2:15 ---- Hosea 11:1 ------> No prediction
Matthew 2:17 ----- Jeremiah 31:15 -----> No prediction
Matthew 2:23 ----- NO OT QUOTE ---> No prediction
Matthew 13:14 ----- Isaiah 6:9 SOURCE DIFFERS ----> Also no prediction
Matthew 13:35 ------ Psalm 78:2 ----> No prediction
Matthew 26:54 ------ NO OT QUOTE ----> No prediction
Matthew 26:56 ------ NO OT QUOTE ----> No prediction
Matthew 27:9 ------ allusion in Jer, Quote in Zech ----> Also no prediction
It is clear that Matthew 1:22 should not, must not and never ought to be a direct quote of any scripture. Mat is specifically going out of his way to let you know that these are not predictions but something else. He's not stupid and he's not lying. He's just not saying what you think he's saying.
Matthew 2:15 ---- Hosea 11:1 ------> No prediction
Matthew 2:17 ----- Jeremiah 31:15 -----> No prediction
Matthew 2:23 ----- NO OT QUOTE ---> No prediction
Matthew 13:14 ----- Isaiah 6:9 SOURCE DIFFERS ----> Also no prediction
Matthew 13:35 ------ Psalm 78:2 ----> No prediction
Matthew 26:54 ------ NO OT QUOTE ----> No prediction
Matthew 26:56 ------ NO OT QUOTE ----> No prediction
Matthew 27:9 ------ allusion in Jer, Quote in Zech ----> Also no prediction
It is clear that Matthew 1:22 should not, must not and never ought to be a direct quote of any scripture. Mat is specifically going out of his way to let you know that these are not predictions but something else. He's not stupid and he's not lying. He's just not saying what you think he's saying.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Posts 51 and 75.. Thanks for posting this though. May help in the other thread as well.
I have learned something today.
CMike
Well-Known Member
Of course.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
And yet God, through the prophets, speaks of David and Elijah both, doing things that only the living can do? Therefore, unless you can answer those questions with some form of courage, don't think calling David, Elijah, or Jesus dead matters at all to me - or to God.
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CMike
Well-Known Member
I didn't know you speak for G-D.
I did answer the questions.
I listed the prophesies.
When the real messiah comes he will fulfill all the messianic prophesies.
I already listed them several times.
They are from Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.
I am unclear what else you are asking.
Other than G-D (The one G-D) there are no other divine beings.
I did answer the questions.
I listed the prophesies.
When the real messiah comes he will fulfill all the messianic prophesies.
I already listed them several times.
They are from Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.
I am unclear what else you are asking.
Other than G-D (The one G-D) there are no other divine beings.
CMike
Well-Known Member
The logic is simple.
The messianic prophesies are clear.
Jesus didn't fulfill them.
Therefore, he is not the jewish messiah.
What aren't you following? :foot:
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I agree. The prophecies are very clear. And being fulfilled even now, by David, by Elijah and by Jesus. Thank you for proving the point, yet again, that the messiah is Jesus.. Seeing as there still hasn't been a single Jew yet, to step up, or that I've spoken to, who can provide even an explanation of how the prophecies fit together for an alternative.. I suggest you at least consider your own position, because at this point you can't even reconsider.