Did Jesus say he was God???

captainbryce · Jul 7, 2013

BornAgain said:
FIGURE THESE VERSES OUT

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than ALL."

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

WHICH ONE DID I IGNORE AGAIN?

That would be "My father....IS GREATER THAN ALL". To go along with the aforementioned John 14:28 and Matthew 24:36 (where he specifically says his father is greater than he is). That is what you are ignoring! :yes:

There is nothing for me to "figure out" with the verses you quoted. They are self explanatory but NONE of them says or implies that "Jesus is God", so I don't know why you've chosen to bring them up.

BornAgain said:
YOU ARE RIGHT Christ IN NOT GUILTY OF BLASPHEMY BECAUSE HE IS TRULY God.

Okay, so basically you're going to just ignore everything I said and resort to circular logic here. He's God because you claim the bible says so. Yet when I ask you to point out where he says this, you provide a stretched "interpretation" of a scripture that in fact does NOT say anything of the kind. And when I explain to you WHY it says what it says, instead of coming up with a reasonable explanation, you just say "because he was God". That's called a FAILED argument of circular logic just so you know. You haven't proven your case, you just ran in a giant circle! Long story short, Jesus is NOT God just because a group of people trying find an excuse to kill him make up a false claim that he says so. And until you can figure out that this is in fact what they did (which scripture clearly says was their intent in Mark 14), I don't see how you can justify your point of view anymore.

You also don't seem to have any answer to John 17:20-21 which pretty much refutes your interpretation of John 10:30. I noticed that you didn't seem to have anything to say on this point, so I'll take your silence as a concession.

BornAgain said:
READ ISAIAH CHAPTER 6

John claims that Isaiah saw Jesus and spoke of him. In other words, he identified Jesus with the Lord.

None of that is relevant because none of this is in dispute. The question is whether or not Jesus ever said he was God or made himself equal with God. And none of the scriptures you cited accomplish this. The scriptures I posted on the other hand (which you conveniently ignored) specifically state that he is NOT equal with God. So basically, until you can find a scripture where Jesus identifies himself as "God", you have no case and the original point stands.

BornAgain · Jul 7, 2013

captainbryce said:
You're missing my point (and not following some basic logic here). YES, the bible says that the Jews accused him of blasphemy. WHAT'S YOUR POINT? That because the people conspiring to kill him made an accusation that they were telling the truth? That makes no sense!

I'm not contradicting anything, you're just not following this simply line of reasoning here. A false accusation is not the same thing as a factual charge! What part about that do you not understand?

The answer is OBVIOUS. They were trying to come up with an excuse to execute him.

These Jews were very religious, they are liars, but they are very religious about their religion. Blasphemy is blasphemy.

YOU WROTE:
But they all knew "blasphemy" was a made up claim anyway

YEAH SURE!

WHAT ELSE DID THEY SAY THAT WAS NOT IN THE
BIBLE?

LETS HEAR THEM.

BornAgain · Jul 7, 2013

captainbryce said:
John 17:20-21
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

I guess under you're interpretation of John 17:20-21, that makes every Christian GOD then too! :yes:

Christ said, “that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me”

The question is how the world going to believe in Christ if there are too many doctrines the Christians are claiming. Are all Christians one, as Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one. NO! too many doctrines!

ONE LORD, one faith, one baptism = the BODY OF CHRIST.

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Holy Spirit baptism [See Acts 1:5], and not the water baptism, is the one that place one into the BODY OF CHRIST.

One can join any church, but that does not mean one belongs to the BODY OF CHRIST. It is the Holy Spirit that place one into the BODY OF CHRIST. Its very subjective, and of course objectively by the fruit of the Holy Spirit [See Galatians 5:22].

Jn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

“that they may be one” One BODY OF CHRIST, “even as we are one:” Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.

====================

captainbryce said:
Here you go!

Mark 14:1-2
1 It was now two days before Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread. The leading priests and the teachers of religious law were still looking for an opportunity to capture Jesus secretly and kill him. 2 “But not during the Passover celebration,” they agreed, “or the people may riot.”

Mark 14:55-59
55 Inside, the leading priests and the entire high council were trying to find evidence against Jesus, so they could put him to death. But they couldn’t find any. 56 Many false witnesses spoke against him, but they contradicted each other. 57 Finally, some men stood up and gave this false testimony: 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this Temple made with human hands, and in three days I will build another, made without human hands.’” 59 But even then they didn’t get their stories straight!

“But even then they didn’t get their stories straight”

JUST LIKE YOU!

You can not make your stories straight.

YOU WROTE:
“But they all knew "blasphemy" was a made up claim anyway”
YOU WROTE:
“That doesn't mean that their accusations were true.”

Where did you get these stories? FROM THEM V59

Mk 14:59 But neither so did their witness agree together.

====================

captainbryce said:
There doesn't have to be. He was speaking metaphorically (just like in John 17:20-21). It is a symbolic statement, not literal.

VERSE 28 Christ said, “neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
VERSE 29 Christ said “no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”

Christ’s hand and the Father’s hand are ONE, or “no man can pluck them out of Christ’s and the Father‘s hand” and that is the reason why Christ said, Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.

“It is a symbolic statement, not literal.”

READ THIS AGAIN.

When Christ said, Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Did he say anything like “I am the Son of God?”

NO!

Christ did not say anything, all He said was,

Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.

THE Jews FROM V33 SAID,

“blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”

Did Christ say something like,
YOU WROTE:
“But they all knew "blasphemy" was a made up claim anyway”
YOU WROTE:
“That doesn't mean that their accusations were true.”

NO! CHRIST DID NOT SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT AT ALL.

BUT WHO SAID THAT?

YOU AND YOUR MIND ALONE SAID SUCH THINGS.

===============================

captainbryce said:
1) He NEVER says he is God

CHRIST NEVER DENY THAT HE IS GOD!

captainbryce said:
2) The Jews were lying and fabricating evidence to have him arrested

WHO ELSE IS LYING AND FABRICATING EVIDENCE AGAINST CHRIST?

YOU WROTE:
“But they all knew "blasphemy" was a made up claim anyway”
YOU WROTE:
“That doesn't mean that their accusations were true.”

======================

captainbryce said:
His point in John 10:34-36 is that if people who received God's message in the OT were called gods without being labeled blasphemous, then there is no call to make this accusation against someone who identifies as merely the Son of God. It's really that simple!

YOU JUST RE-PHRASE MY ANSWER TO YOU.

If, then, these terms can be applied to ordinary mortals or even angels, how could the Lord Jesus Christ be accused of blasphemy when He applied them to Himself, the One whom the Father set apart and sent into the world? The Lord Jesus Christ was not offering a false claim; He was merely asserting what He was by right.

========================

captainbryce said:
Yes, YOU are inventing. The trinity is an invented concept, one that Christ never taught.

THERE YOU GO! TRINITY IS WHAT REALLY BOTHERING YOU AND NOT ABOUT THE DEITY OF CHRIST.

====================

captainbryce said:
My claim of the lying and treachery of the Jews is backed up in all four gospels.

YOUR CLAIM IS NOTHING BUT FANTASY FROM YOUR MIND.

You can not make your stories straight.

YOU WROTE:
“But they all knew "blasphemy" was a made up claim anyway”
YOU WROTE:
“That doesn't mean that their accusations were true.”

Where did you get these stories?

I think this verse is talking about you.

Mk 14:56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.

Just like you, you can not make your accusation of Christ straight so you INVENTED STORIES LIKE THESE,

captainbryce · Jul 7, 2013

InvestigateTruth said:
The Christians believe God is All-knowing.
If Jesus was God, was He All-knowing?
If He was All-knowing, how you explain this verse:

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36

They can't explain that one. In Matthew 24:36 Jesus clearly states that his father "knows more" than he does. If there is something that Jesus does not know, he cannot be "God" (by definition) because God is all knowing. I've tried to get Trinitarians to resolve this logic time and time again and it is routinely ignored. Other scriptures that are unexplainable along these lines:

Matthew 27:46
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? (which means My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?).
[Jesus has his OWN God, therefore he cannot be God himself]

John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me
[If Jesus cannot do something by himself, then he is not "God" because God is all powerful]

Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? Jesus answered. No one is goodexcept God alone.
[Jesus rebukes a man for calling him good, indicating that he is not God]

Mark 12:28-29
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, Of all the commandments, which is the most important? 29 The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
[Jesus says the Lord is one. Not "three", not "three in one", not "triune", but ONE. This prefaces the "most important" commandment to love God]

John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God
[Jesus has been granted "authority" from God, comes FROM God, and returns TO God. Therefore, he cannot be God himself (who has always existed and never leaves)]

John 14:28
You heard me say, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
[If any being is "greater" than Jesus, then Jesus is by definition NOT God. His father, the greater being is God, and as Jesus says God is ONE]

John 17:21-22
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one
[Juxtapose this with John 10:30 "I and the father are one" statement. If one is literal, then both of them are and we are ALL "God", because we are all one with him. But since we are NOT all God under this logic, then neither is Jesus and John 10:30 is merely a symbolic statement as John 17:20-21 is]

John 20:17
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
[Once again, Jesus has HIS OWN GOD just like we do]

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we areyet he did not sin.

[If God cannot be tempted, and Jesus was tempted in every way, then Jesus cannot be God. The fact that Jesus resisted his temptation is irrelevant, otherwise anyone who resists their own temptations can make a claim of being God themselves. The idea is that if you CAN be tempted at all, then you are not God.]

captainbryce · Jul 7, 2013

BornAgain said:
Christ said, that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me

The question is how the world going to believe in Christ if there are too many doctrines the Christians are claiming. Are all Christians one, as Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one. NO! too many doctrines!

I know what the scripture is saying and I'm aware of the implications. But you are still missing my point! You are not taking John 17:21-22 LITERALLY. You understand that it is a symbolic expression of "oneness". So why the double standard? Why is John 17:21-22 symbolic and John 10:30 literal? That is a very inconsistent and contradictory point of view. If John 10:30 LITERALLY says that Jesus is God (because they are one), then John 17:21-22 LITERALLY says that we are all God (because we are all one). Otherwise, both of them are symbolic, metaphorical statements.

BornAgain said:
But even then they didnt get their stories straight

JUST LIKE YOU!

You can not make your stories straight.

Uh, no...my story is very clear and unlike yours it happens to be consistent with scripture. There is only one question you need to ask yourself here: Where the Jews who were lying, fabricating and conspiring to kill Jesus by any means possible telling the truth when they accused Jesus of claiming that he was God, or were they lying, fabricating and conspiring so that they could justify executing him? It's a rhetorical question by the way!

BornAgain said:
VERSE 28 Christ said, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
VERSE 29 Christ said no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Christs hand and the Fathers hand are ONE

Symbolically, not literally.

BornAgain said:
READ THIS AGAIN.

I don't need to read it again. You haven't justified your point of view upon first viewing yet. I'm quite clear what the scripture says. But you seem to be willfully ignorant of the basic points I am making. You continue to resort to circular logic.

BornAgain said:
When Christ said, Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.

BornAgain said:
Did he say anything like I am the Son of God?

He says he is the Son of God MANY places in scripture, but this is a red herring you're bringing up here. The question is whether or not John 10:30 is literal or symbolic and by the same logic that John 17:21-22 is symbolic so is John 10:30. Until you can reconcile that basic logic, you have no case!

BornAgain said:
THE Jews FROM V33 SAID,

blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Did Christ say something like,
YOU WROTE:
But they all knew "blasphemy" was a made up claim anyway
YOU WROTE:
That doesn't mean that their accusations were true.

NO! CHRIST DID NOT SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT AT ALL.

The bible says that they were providing false witnesses who were making false statements about Jesus because they were looking for an excuse to kill him. Do you deny this?

BornAgain said:
CHRIST NEVER DENY THAT HE IS GOD!

He actually does in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19

BornAgain said:
YOU JUST RE-PHRASE MY ANSWER TO YOU.

If, then, these terms can be applied to ordinary mortals or even angels, how could the Lord Jesus Christ be accused of blasphemy when He applied them to Himself, the One whom the Father set apart and sent into the world? The Lord Jesus Christ was not offering a false claim; He was merely asserting what He was by right.

Yes, I rephrased it because you are the one who has burden of proof here. I don't! You are the one who says that Jesus is God, and your phrasing presumes this thing (which you cannot prove), and therefore relies on circular logic. Consequently your phrasing is completely disingenuous and mine is more realistic. BTW, in the very same scripture you are referencing, Jesus says he is the SON of God, not equal with God (what they were accusing him of).

BornAgain said:
THERE YOU GO! TRINITY IS WHAT REALLY BOTHERING YOU AND NOT ABOUT THE DEITY OF CHRIST.

Correct. Because trinity is a false doctrine that neither you nor any other Trinitarian can ever seem to justify without resorting to circular logic.

Agnostic75 · Jul 7, 2013

Muffled said:
I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming
evidence.

Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

It is not possible to reasonably know which Scriptures Jesus said, or did not say. Today, there are not any surviving original first century A.D. New Testament manuscripts, and there are very few original second century manuscripts. Even if we had the originals, that would not necessarily mean that the originals were historically accurate, and that the authors were who they sometimes claimed to be.

BornAgain · Jul 7, 2013

captainbryce said:
That would be "My father....IS GREATER THAN ALL". To go along with the aforementioned John 14:28 and Matthew 24:36 (where he specifically says his father is greater than he is). That is what you are ignoring! :yes:

There is nothing for me to "figure out" with the verses you quoted. They are self explanatory but NONE of them says or implies that "Jesus is God", so I don't know why you've chosen to bring them up.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

BY MATHEW HENRY:

How much greater things are said of Christ by the Father. Here two passages of scripture are quoted.

[1.] One of these is out of Ps. 45:6, 7, where God declares of Christ, First, His true and real divinity, and that with much pleasure and affection, not grudging him that glory: Thy throne, O God. Here God calls another God, O God. And, if God the Father declares him to be so, he must be really and truly so; for God calls persons and things as they are.

And now let who will deny him to be essentially God at their peril,

but let us own and honour him as God; for, if he had not been God, he had never been fit to have done the Mediators work nor to have worn the Mediators crown. Secondly, God declares his dignity and dominion, as having a throne, a kingdom, and a sceptre of that kingdom. He has all right, rule, authority, and power, both as the God of nature, grace, and glory, and as Mediator; and so he is fully adequate to all the intents and purposes of his mediatorial kingdom. Thirdly, God declares the eternal duration of the dominion and dignity of Christ, founded upon the divinity of his person: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, from everlasting to everlasting, through all the ages of time, maugre all the attempts of earth and hell to undermine and overthrow it, and through all the endless ages of eternity, when time shall be no more. This distinguishes Christs throne from all earthly thrones, which are tottering, and will at length tumble down; but the throne of Christ shall be as the days of heaven.

savagewind · Jul 7, 2013

BornAgain said:
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

BY MATHEW HENRY:

How much greater things are said of Christ by the Father. Here two passages of scripture are quoted.

[1.] One of these is out of Ps. 45:6, 7, where God declares of Christ, First, His true and real divinity, and that with much pleasure and affection, not grudging him that glory: Thy throne, O God. Here God calls another God, O God. And, if God the Father declares him to be so, he must be really and truly so; for God calls persons and things as they are.

And now let who will deny him to be essentially God at their peril,

but let us own and honour him as God; for, if he had not been God, he had never been fit to have done the Mediators work nor to have worn the Mediators crown. Secondly, God declares his dignity and dominion, as having a throne, a kingdom, and a sceptre of that kingdom. He has all right, rule, authority, and power, both as the God of nature, grace, and glory, and as Mediator; and so he is fully adequate to all the intents and purposes of his mediatorial kingdom. Thirdly, God declares the eternal duration of the dominion and dignity of Christ, founded upon the divinity of his person: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, from everlasting to everlasting, through all the ages of time, maugre all the attempts of earth and hell to undermine and overthrow it, and through all the endless ages of eternity, when time shall be no more. This distinguishes Christs throne from all earthly thrones, which are tottering, and will at length tumble down; but the throne of Christ shall be as the days of heaven.

All the above can be true of a son and inheritor.

BornAgain · Jul 7, 2013

captainbryce said:
None of that is relevant because none of this is in dispute.

The question is whether or not Jesus ever said he was God or made himself equal with God.

And none of the scriptures you cited accomplish this.

The scriptures I posted on the other hand (which you conveniently ignored) specifically state that he is NOT equal with God. So basically, until you can find a scripture where Jesus identifies himself as "God", you have no case and the original point stands.

How is this irrelevant to Christ deity?

The apostle John, who wrote the book of John, claims that Isaiah saw Jesus and spoke of him. In other words, he identified Jesus with the Lord of hosts in Isaiah chapter 6:5.

John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

It was not for want of evidence, but because their heart was made fat, and their ears were heavy.

captainbryce · Jul 7, 2013

BornAgain said:
How is this irrelevant to Christ deity?

For aforementioned reasons: that Jesus never says he is God, nor does he ever make himself equal to God (but in fact does the opposite). That's how!

BornAgain said:
The apostle John, who wrote the book of John, claims that Isaiah saw Jesus and spoke of him. In other words, he identified Jesus with the Lord of hosts in Isaiah chapter 6:5.

Uh, no. You made a big jump to a conclusion there. He does say that Isaiah prophesied about Jesus, but he was not identifying Jesus as God. Jesus is also called Lord by the way. That does not mean he is God though.

Oh, and you just reminded me of another scripture that proves Jesus cannot be God.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

And I used the King James version here because some of the newer bibles falsify this scripture by adding the words "who is himself God" even though that phrase does not appear in the Greek manuscripts. Without that false scripture, the passage says the opposite of what is otherwise implied.

Exodus 33:20
But, he said, you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

In both the OT and NT it is declared that no man has ever seen God. Yet many men have seen Jesus. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God because no man can see God and live.

gzusfrk · Jul 7, 2013

captainbryce said:
1 John 5:20
20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life.

A) The "he' in the last sentence is referring to "the true God", not "his Son, Jesus Christ".

B) This is not Jesus speaking, it's John speaking. So even IF he was referring to Jesus in the last sentence (which he's not), my statement still stands. Jesus NEVER refers to himself as "God".

Thats because Jesus is not the Father, however jesus is God for humans, the door for His sheep, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, savior of mankind.

BornAgain · Jul 9, 2013

captainbryce said:
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

And I used the King James version here because some of the newer bibles falsify this scripture by adding the words "who is himself God" even though that phrase does not appear in the Greek manuscripts. Without that false scripture, the passage says the opposite of what is otherwise implied.

Exodus 33:20
But, he said, you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

In both the OT and NT it is declared that no man has ever seen God. Yet many men have seen Jesus. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God because no man can see God and live.

YOU ARE RIGHT AGAIN!

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Only Christ seen God -EYE TO EYE- at any time, because He is the Son of God, and that is why He is God, Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. and not a man, but became flesh, Jn 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

If God the Father declares Him to be God, He must be really and truly God.

It was not for want of evidence, but because their hearts were made fat, and their ears were heavy.

FranklinMichaelV.3 · Jul 9, 2013

Abraham has seen God...though I guess it was when God took human form.

captainbryce · Jul 9, 2013

gzusfrk said:
Thats because Jesus is not the Father, however jesus is God for humans, the door for His sheep, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, savior of mankind.

I aware that this is the OPINION of every Trinitarian out there, but it is not a matter of substantiated fact. That's what this discussion is all about. Trying to find biblical proof that Jesus ever claimed to be God, and there is none. There is only ONE God sir, and I see no scriptural evidence that Jesus is that ONE God. I see plenty of scriptural evidence (mostly from his own words) that he is NOT.

captainbryce · Jul 9, 2013

BornAgain said:
YOU ARE RIGHT AGAIN!

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Only Christ seen God -EYE TO EYE- at any time, because He is the Son of God, and that is why He is God

That is a contradiction that defies logic. It also is in conflict with the point of that very scripture (that no man has seen God).

BornAgain said:
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

If God the Father declares Him to be God, He must be really and truly God.

A god. Not the God (because there is only one).

BornAgain · Jul 9, 2013

InvestigateTruth said:
The Christians believe God is All-knowing.
If Jesus was God, was He All-knowing?
If He was All-knowing, how you explain this verse:

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36

Mt 24:3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, [Q1] Tell us, when shall these things be? [Q2] and what shall be the sign of thy coming, [Q3] and of the end of the world?

The disciples here asked three questions.

[Q1] “Tell us, when shall these things be?” About verses 1-2

The Lord Jesus Christ answered these questions from verses 4 to 25 of Matthew chapter 24.

This is about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem known today as The*Western Wall,*Wailing Wall*or*Kotel.

The Lord Jesus Christ foretold these events before the crucifixion.

Mt 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

The temple was burned when Jerusalem fell to the Roman armies in August A.D. 70. [See verses 1-2 again]

Verse 34 is referring to the events in verses 4-24.

[Q2] “and what shall be the sign of thy coming,”

Read Matthew 24:26-33

[Q3] “and of the end of the world?”

The Lord Jesus Christ answered this,

Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
Mt 24:37 BUT as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Read Matthew 24:38-51

=========
The first question [“Tell us, when shall these things be?”], the Lord Jesus Christ did not give the disciples the exact hour and day but,

Mt 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

The temple was burned when Jerusalem fell to the Roman armies in August A.D. 70.

==============
The second question [“and what shall be the SIGN of thy coming,”], again the Lord Jesus Christ did not give the disciples the time and day but, READ Matthew 24:26-33.

The third question [“and of the end of the world?”], again the Lord Jesus Christ did not give the disciples the time and day BUT,

Mt 24:37 BUT as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Read Matthew 24:38-51

Do you want the exact time and day?

Mt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Mt 24:44 AMP You also must be ready therefore, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not expect Him.

YEAH! THAT IS THE TIME THE Lord Jesus Christ WILL COME.

As the Lord Jesus Christ foretold the events in QUESTION #1 and it ALL came true, so as QUESTION #2 AND #3 will come true.

TIME AND DAY?

Ac 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

WHEN YOU SEE THIS SIGN, THE END IS NEAR.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

It was not for want of evidence, but because their hearts were made fat, and their ears were heavy.

BornAgain · Jul 9, 2013

captainbryce said:
A god. Not the God (because there is only one).

Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other/HETEROS/DIFFERENT gods before me.

God will call an a god HIS son, and tell this a god, “thy throne, o a god? a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

You will have a hard time twisting this verses.

Heb 1:8 pros de ton huios: thronos sou ho theos eis aiöna aiönos, kai hrabdos euthutëtos hrabdos basileias sou.

Heb 1:8 About but the Son throne your o God for ever ever and righteousness scepter kingdom your.

It was not for want of evidence, but because their hearts were made fat, and their ears were heavy.

BornAgain · Jul 9, 2013

FranklinMichaelV.3 said:
Abraham has seen God...though I guess it was when God took human form.

You meant the Glory of God.

BornAgain · Jul 9, 2013

FranklinMichaelV.3 said:
Abraham has seen God...though I guess it was when God took human form.

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Isaiah saw not Jehovahthe essence of God (no man has seen that, or can see it, EXCEPT Christ BECAUSE HE IS God, THE SON OF GOD, JOHN1:18), but Adonaihis dominion.

Jn 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

He saw the Lord Jesus; so this vision is explained John 12:41; that Isaiah now saw Christs glory and spoke of him, which is an incontestable proof of the divinity of our Saviour. Matthew Henry

gzusfrk · Jul 9, 2013

captainbryce said:
I aware that this is the OPINION of every Trinitarian out there, but it is not a matter of substantiated fact. That's what this discussion is all about. Trying to find biblical proof that Jesus ever claimed to be God, and there is none. There is only ONE God sir, and I see no scriptural evidence that Jesus is that ONE God. I see plenty of scriptural evidence (mostly from his own words) that he is NOT.

Well it would seem from 1 John 1:23, if you have Jesus you have the Father automatically. If you dont accept the Son of God you got nothing.

Did Jesus say he was God???

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