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God and Eternal Hell

Paraprakrti

Custom User
thomasedison said:
I think here is where we differ. Although I do not believe in God, the only position of God I can accept is that of the creator of material world and the giver of free will and consciousness to man even though that is not in accordance in science.

No, if you are going to accept God hypothetically then you should accept the concept fully. Otherwise, why have this discussion? I am trying to give you an answer by elaborating on the given qualities of the concept we term "God". If you will not accept then what else can we do?


thomasedison said:
Abstract concepts such as truth, morality and reason exist because the human mind and consciousness exists. Morality and reason are not applicable to animals.

Animals typically act purely out of nature. They have consciousness, but it is not as developed as humans'. If we accept God, at least hypothetically, then we must accept that God is the ultimate truth, morality and reason. If there is nothing higher than God, then where can there exist a truth external from Him?


thomasedison said:
Reason is the faculty to draw conclusions based on verifiable facts. Reason tells what is right and wrong.
Morality consists in doing what is right. Thus morality is based on reason.

Ok. God is the conclusion of reason; the conclusion of what is right. The ability to reason is also divine. For the fact that if that ability was not there in God, it would not be present in us. The difference is that God has nothing to reason external from Himself. Because He is the conclusion of reason, His reasoning is only to benefit those who need it. Just like you may not accept that God is the conclusion of reason, so God may try to persuade you by other methods. For example, the method of persuasion for attaining heaven over hell. For some people that does not work. Another method may be more philosophical. Still, many are atheists and so any concept of God is often immediately rejected. In this case we have certain religions that are more fitting, i.e.: Buddhism. These are all stages of trying to get people to come to that final conclusion. This is how God reasons.


thomasedison said:
Everything we do should be based on reason. If God is reason then everything we do should be based on God? How can anything anyone does be based on anyone. It can be based on the good of oneself or somebody but how can it be based on someone or something's existence?

Yes, everything we do should be based on God. That means that we should act in service to God. God is very merciful. It is not that God expects us to ignore our material necessities and serve Him. But He asks that when we engage in our daily material activities that we always think of Him. There is a certain amount of material sense gratification that cannot be avoided so long as we are here. God prescribes that instead of acting for the satisfaction of the senses, we should act for His satisfaction. This does not mean that God needs to be satisfied by us. God is eternally satisfied in Himself. But we need to re-establish our relationship with God. By serving Him, The Enjoyer we become enjoyers as well. To try and be an enjoyer in ourselves is what causes us to suffer.


thomasedison said:
That is what I am asking. If God exists, then God made man. God made his nature and God decided who should Man be dependent on.
Why did God (if he exists) make man such that Man be dependent on God?

You have misunderstood my reply. I said that our being dependent on God is the eternal designation. Eternal here means "without beginning and without end". So it is not that God made man to be dependent. The soul existed before man was made. These souls are eternally dependent on God. The reason man was made was because at some point in existence these souls desired to be enjoyers apart from God.
The argument I could possibly see in reply to this would be why doesn't God make us enjoyers in ourselves? Why doesn't God change the eternal relationship? But of course, the problem lies in the reasoning that if you want God to help you then that contradicts wanting to be an enjoyer separate from God. So either you are separate from God, or you want Him to help. God did not make it this way. It IS this way.


thomasedison said:
No, I do not want God to make anything better. If God exists, I want him to give reasons for what He did. If the reasons are valid, I will gladly accept them.

There are no reasons for what God did because He did nothing in creating these eternal circumstances. We are all part and parcel of God. That is our eternal designation. We either accept and live in our constitutional position free from birth and death, ignorance and suffering... Or we reject our relationship with God and suffer through ignorance. It is not a matter of why did God create us this way. God did not create you. You are spirit-soul. Spirit is eternal.


thomasedison said:
You said that we are not creators, enjoyers and controllers. But we can try to be. Yet the "are not" implies that nobody has tried to be the creator, enjoyer or controller. In effect nobody has tried to be God. How is then any person responsible for what he/she does if nobody is the creator, enjoyer and/or controller?

In ourselves we are nothing. Through God we are more than we can imagine. This is what I meant when to say that we are neither creators, enjoyers nor controllers. That must be understood, first and foremost, because we are currently in a diseased condition. Just like if your doctor tells you not to eat any candy for a few months. It is not that you cannot enjoy candy ever again; it is just that you must follow this instruction in order to be healed from your affliction. We are conditioned under the idea that we are (or can be) creators, enjoyers and controllers in ourselves. But that idea is an illusion; the Sanskrit word for this illusion is 'Maya'. Maya is very strong, as we can all agree when we simply look around at all the people (even those who claim theism) who are seeking to be creators, enjoyers and controllers with little to no regard for God. Because we "are not" these things does not conclude that we have not (and do not) *tried (try)* to become them.


thomasedison said:
If we are not enjoyers, then what does anybody mean when he/she says "our happiness"?

I apologize that I had not clarified this before. We are not enjoyers apart from God. The only enjoyment we receive is because God has given it. Still, the most enjoyment is in our constitutional position; eternally devoted to God. By seeking to be the enjoyed, we become enjoyers as well. By trying to be our own enjoyers, we fall because our power is very limited.


thomasedison said:
Promiscuity gives pleasure. But it destroys our self-esteem. It does not give happiness. Happiness is a feeling of elation and contentment. Of having pride in knowing what you have done and what you can do. Pleasure is not the same.

I am only thinking of the term "pleasure" by the root word "pleased". You are apparently talking about something more specific; some material pleasure.
Someone may also say, "I took great pleasure in knowing what I had done". Could they not?
 
Paraprakrti said:
No, if you are going to accept God hypothetically then you should accept the concept fully. Otherwise, why have this discussion? I am trying to give you an answer by elaborating on the given qualities of the concept we term "God". If you will not accept then what else can we do?
Paraprakrti said:
Animals typically act purely out of nature. They have consciousness, but it is not as developed as humans'. If we accept God, at least hypothetically, then we must accept that God is the ultimate truth, morality and reason. If there is nothing higher than God, then where can there exist a truth external from Him?
Paraprakrti said:
Ok. God is the conclusion of reason; the conclusion of what is right. The ability to reason is also divine. For the fact that if that ability was not there in God, it would not be present in us. The difference is that God has nothing to reason external from Himself. Because He is the conclusion of reason, His reasoning is only to benefit those who need it. Just like you may not accept that God is the conclusion of reason, so God may try to persuade you by other methods. For example, the method of persuasion for attaining heaven over hell. For some people that does not work. Another method may be more philosophical. Still, many are atheists and so any concept of God is often immediately rejected. In this case we have certain religions that are more fitting, i.e.: Buddhism. These are all stages of trying to get people to come to that final conclusion. This is how God reasons.
Paraprakrti said:
Yes, everything we do should be based on God. That means that we should act in service to God. God is very merciful. It is not that God expects us to ignore our material necessities and serve Him. But He asks that when we engage in our daily material activities that we always think of Him. There is a certain amount of material sense gratification that cannot be avoided so long as we are here. God prescribes that instead of acting for the satisfaction of the senses, we should act for His satisfaction. This does not mean that God needs to be satisfied by us. God is eternally satisfied in Himself. But we need to re-establish our relationship with God. By serving Him, The Enjoyer we become enjoyers as well. To try and be an enjoyer in ourselves is what causes us to suffer.
Paraprakrti said:
You have misunderstood my reply. I said that our being dependent on God is the eternal designation. Eternal here means "without beginning and without end". So it is not that God made man to be dependent. The soul existed before man was made. These souls are eternally dependent on God. The reason man was made was because at some point in existence these souls desired to be enjoyers apart from God.
The argument I could possibly see in reply to this would be why doesn't God make us enjoyers in ourselves? Why doesn't God change the eternal relationship? But of course, the problem lies in the reasoning that if you want God to help you then that contradicts wanting to be an enjoyer separate from God. So either you are separate from God, or you want Him to help. God did not make it this way. It IS this way.
Paraprakrti said:
There are no reasons for what God did because He did nothing in creating these eternal circumstances. We are all part and parcel of God. That is our eternal designation. We either accept and live in our constitutional position free from birth and death, ignorance and suffering... Or we reject our relationship with God and suffer through ignorance. It is not a matter of why did God create us this way. God did not create you. You are spirit-soul. Spirit is eternal.
Do you mean to say that we should accept and do what God says without questioning, without asking why?

If God exists and God is not higher than reason, God is ultimate, God doesn't need any justification for his actions because God is the justification for everything, does that mean that we should do whatever pleases God?
Does that mean that the governments should nuke the whole world and themselves and that men should slaughter one another and spare not even children if God tells us to do so and if these actions please him?

If God is the reason for everything and there is no why in the context of God then how do you know what God wants? After all, its been thousands of years since he first supposedly told what he wanted men to do and he could have changed his thoughts. He might want all of us to go to eternal hell now.
 

Paraprakrti

Custom User
thomasedison said:
Do you mean to say that we should accept and do what God says without questioning, without asking why?

No, asking questions is fine. Read the Bhagavad-Gita. Therein Arjuna asks God many questions about why he should do what is being asked of him. And God goes into this deep philosophy that explains why Arjuna should not refrain from his duty.


thomasedison said:
If God exists and God is not higher than reason, God is ultimate, God doesn't need any justification for his actions because God is the justification for everything, does that mean that we should do whatever pleases God?

Yes. Is there any difficulty with this? God isn't going to ask you to do anything that He knows you will not accept. His instructions are simple and are always focused on the well-being of His devotees.


thomasedison said:
Does that mean that the governments should nuke the whole world and themselves and that men should slaughter one another and spare not even children if God tells us to do so and if these actions please him?

God already explains what pleases Him. Just like in the Old Testament God is pleased by sacrifice (i.e.: animal sacrifice), but in the New Testament love and devotion is taught through Jesus Christ. Similarly, in the Vedas there are injunctions for performing yajna (sacrifice) for God. But the highest spiritual activity is through Bhakti (love and devotion to God). You may find demoniac men promoting human slaughter on the strength of saying that God told them to, but we should have more sense than that. God does not generally tell anyone to kill. In the Bhagavad-Gita God tells Arjuna to fight and kill because it is his duty, and sometimes fighting is necessary. When all other options are exhausted, we must fight, especially if it is to preserve the welfare of human civilization.


thomasedison said:
If God is the reason for everything and there is no why in the context of God then how do you know what God wants? After all, its been thousands of years since he first supposedly told what he wanted men to do and he could have changed his thoughts. He might want all of us to go to eternal hell now.

So what are you going to do? Speculate about what God may want now? Just try to understand in general that God wants us to return to Him. We have absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. Every world scripture promotes love of God in some form or fashion. What God wants is already there in these scriptures. It is not that God changes His mind later. That would reason that God is under circumstances to change His mind, especially as drastically as desiring our salvation to desiring our condemnation. God's desires are the same as they were two thousand years ago, the same even as two billion years ago. The differences throughout the ages is due to difference in people. God caters to the people of that certain time and place. That is His mercy.
 
Paraprakrti said:
So what are you going to do? Speculate about what God may want now? Just try to understand in general that God wants us to return to Him. We have absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. Every world scripture promotes love of God in some form or fashion. What God wants is already there in these scriptures. It is not that God changes His mind later. That would reason that God is under circumstances to change His mind, especially as drastically as desiring our salvation to desiring our condemnation. God's desires are the same as they were two thousand years ago, the same even as two billion years ago. The differences throughout the ages is due to difference in people. God caters to the people of that certain time and place. That is His mercy.
But if reason is not higher than God and God is the reason and justification of everything, then what pleases Him is what we should do.
Since reason is not higher than God and God is reason, pleasure of God is based on whim.
If what God wants is based on whim, there is absolutely no way to know what God actually wants at any moment of time.
We have no proof that God always wants the well-being of humans inspite of the fact that the scriptures say so. If the pleasure of God is not based on reason, it can only be based on whim, on the arbitrary. It has to be based on something. He can change it anytime. His desires can change anytime.

You said that souls existed before man and souls cannot be content without God. But God made the souls. Why did he make them one way and not another. Why did he make them such that the souls be never content without him? Arbitrary decision making?

And, BTW, wasn't Bhagavada - Gita written by a man? It is not the word of God.
 

Paraprakrti

Custom User
thomasedison said:
But if reason is not higher than God and God is the reason and justification of everything, then what pleases Him is what we should do.

Yes.


thomasedison said:
Since reason is not higher than God and God is reason, pleasure of God is based on whim.
If what God wants is based on whim, there is absolutely no way to know what God actually wants at any moment of time.

Furthermore, because God is eternally unconditioned, His "whims" for what pleases Him are never affected by time. Therefore what God desires is always the same. God is not subject to "any moment of time". There is no need to speculate on God possibly changing His mind about what He wants. We already know what God wants. God wants everyone to return to their constitutional position. That is the only way everyone will be happy. So God prescribes methods for us to always think of Him and to offer the results of our work to Him. By doing that we remain free from the karmic attachments that keep us entangled in material life, thus making our spiritual realization grow more and more. God accepts our karma in that way. Just like Jesus accepted the sins of his devotees. He was empowered to do such.


thomasedison said:
We have no proof that God always wants the well-being of humans inspite of the fact that the scriptures say so. If the pleasure of God is not based on reason, it can only be based on whim, on the arbitrary. It has to be based on something. He can change it anytime. His desires can change anytime.

The question is, why would God change His desires? To say that He would is to say that there are external circumstances that affect God. If such was the case, then this being who we thought was God is apparently not. God is the One who transcends all conditions. The pleasure that God asks from us is for our reason. By seeking to please God instead of please the material senses we remain unattached and do not become more entangled in material life. Like I have stated before, God really does not need anyone to please Him. He is eternally satisfied by His internal potency. So, our pleasing Him is for our benefit because God is eternally benefited. We are obviously not eternally benefited. And the only way to return to that position is to seek a relationship with the reservoir of pleasure Himself.


thomasedison said:
You said that souls existed before man and souls cannot be content without God. But God made the souls. Why did he make them one way and not another. Why did he make them such that the souls be never content without him? Arbitrary decision making?

You are still not understanding what I have said...
The souls were not made. They are eternal. Eternal means without beginning and without end. Therefore there is no question of "why did He make them one way or the other?"


thomasedison said:
And, BTW, wasn't Bhagavada - Gita written by a man? It is not the word of God.

It was written down by Srila Vyasadeva, a powerful incarnation of Visnu (God). You either accept or you don't. That is another topic though. Still, I have answered your questions regarding this thread. Anything else?
 
Paraprakrti said:
Furthermore, because God is eternally unconditioned, His "whims" for what pleases Him are never affected by time. Therefore what God desires is always the same. God is not subject to "any moment of time". There is no need to speculate on God possibly changing His mind about what He wants. We already know what God wants. God wants everyone to return to their constitutional position. That is the only way everyone will be happy. So God prescribes methods for us to always think of Him and to offer the results of our work to Him. By doing that we remain free from the karmic attachments that keep us entangled in material life, thus making our spiritual realization grow more and more. God accepts our karma in that way. Just like Jesus accepted the sins of his devotees. He was empowered to do such.
Even if God created everything, God is reason, God is justification for everything, that is no reason to suppose that his whims are not affected by time. There is no proof to back this up. God is not guided by reason since he is reason. He is not guided by anything. Therefore his wants or decisions or actions must be arbitrary i.e. without based on anything since He is the basis for everything. Therefore, whatever he wants can change anytime, for no reason at all.


Paraprakrti said:
The question is, why would God change His desires? To say that He would is to say that there are external circumstances that affect God. If such was the case, then this being who we thought was God is apparently not. God is the One who transcends all conditions. The pleasure that God asks from us is for our reason. By seeking to please God instead of please the material senses we remain unattached and do not become more entangled in material life. Like I have stated before, God really does not need anyone to please Him. He is eternally satisfied by His internal potency. So, our pleasing Him is for our benefit because God is eternally benefited. We are obviously not eternally benefited. And the only way to return to that position is to seek a relationship with the reservoir of pleasure Himself.
But asking 'why' of God is implying that God himself is guided by reason. If God is reason, and all his actions are not based on any logic at all, then his desires are guided by the arbitrary. They can change for no reason at all.

If God bases his actions and desires on logic, God has never provided that logic.
He hasn't told as to why he wants us to be happy if He is eternally satisfied with Himself.


Paraprakrti said:
You are still not understanding what I have said...
The souls were not made. They are eternal. Eternal means without beginning and without end. Therefore there is no question of "why did He make them one way or the other?"
Didn't God make everything?
 

Paraprakrti

Custom User
thomasedison said:
Even if God created everything, God is reason, God is justification for everything, that is no reason to suppose that his whims are not affected by time. There is no proof to back this up. God is not guided by reason since he is reason. He is not guided by anything. Therefore his wants or decisions or actions must be arbitrary i.e. without based on anything since He is the basis for everything. Therefore, whatever he wants can change anytime, for no reason at all.

The proof is in accepting that God is transcendental and thus unaffected by insignificant events that happen under material time. Also, I have already explained that God does not desire for His benefit. He is eternally benefited in Himself. So *we* benefit from being associated with Him. He teaches us how we can live in devotion to Himself so that we can be benefited. And since He has no wants that He Himself is not eternally fulfilling by His internal potency, there is no question of God whimsically changing His mind on us. So now we have two things:
1. God is not influenced by anything external, thus He does not change His mind about things.
2. Because God is eternally satisfied in Himself, He furthermore has no reason to change His mind about what He wants.

God is not guided by reason, but we are. And because we are, God guides us through reason. That reason is to give up materialistic life and surrender to Him. He will take care of us. Furthermore from surrender, He teaches us how to develop a closeness to Him through devotional service. This is all a means to return to His association. God has no Personally benefitting desire. He reasons to benefit those that require being benefited. Even if God was to drastically change His mind about what we should do to please Him, He would let it be known. There is nothing restricting God. Your whole argument is based on a pointless speculation. That is realized furthermore from the fact that your argument has no validity given the infallible position of God. If you are to accept God hypothetically, then everything I have said is perfectly reconciling your questions.


thomasedison said:
But asking 'why' of God is implying that God himself is guided by reason. If God is reason, and all his actions are not based on any logic at all, then his desires are guided by the arbitrary. They can change for no reason at all.

Yes, asking why is implying that God is guided by reason because it is asking why God would change His mind. Therefore you agree with me that God has no need to change His mind about how He wants us to seek His association. And like I said in an earlier post, small changes will be made due to differences in people of specific place and time. But it is all generally the same in that it is seeking devotion to God. For example, in past ages it was prescribed in the Vedas that people take up the method of yogic meditation (sitting cross-legged, eyes half closed, meditating on the form of Visnu). That process is very long and is difficult for most people in this age due to the restlessness of the mind. It has been prescribed that we take up the method of Bhakti, love and devotion to God, by chanting the holy names of the Lord. Two different processes meant for the same purpose (or *reason*). That reason is to remember God and seek to be in His service. There are also many Christian, Jewish, Muslim examples of this same desire God has for us. No need to pointlessly speculate.


thomasedison said:
If God bases his actions and desires on logic, God has never provided that logic.
He hasn't told as to why he wants us to be happy if He is eternally satisfied with Himself.

Why are you worried about God's actions and desires? He acts and desires through His internal potency and is eternally satisfied in that manner. Furthermore, you follow God or you do not. That is your choice.
God wants us to be happy because that is His mercy. The very reason we are here is because we desired to be here. We thought we could be happy in this state and so we demanded from God and God gave it to us. You can reject that because I know that doing so would help your position of disbelief for God. But you either accept what is REVEALED, or you pointlessly speculate.


thomasedison said:
Didn't God make everything?

God made everything that has a beginning and an end. The souls are eternally part and parcel of God. God did not make the souls in the same way that God did not make God's right arm. God's parts are eternal. We are part and parcel of God, eternally. Eternal means "not made", but "always existing".
 

retrorich

SUPER NOT-A-MOD
Mister Emu said:
I am saying that to truly accept Jesus into your heart you have to be a morally right person, and if Hitler even up to a moment before his death did accept Jesus, and did repent his sins than he would goto heaven. I understand you are an Atheist, that is your right, I know of and trust in God's mercy, that whoever accepts Jesus into his/her heart and repents is saved.
Are you also saying that if you do not accept Jesus into your heart, you are NOT a morally right person?
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
Are you also saying that if you do not accept Jesus into your heart, you are NOT a morally right person?
i hope not. anyone can be moral, religion fosters (or should foster) that morality. but you can be completly moral without religion. what paraprakrti says you cannot attain salvation/heaven if you do not believe in God fully and love Him, whether it be jesus, buddha, or krishna, or God.



do i agree? sure, whatever floats your boat. being part of the divine spirit lead to that.
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
thomasedison said:
According to some religions, if you accept and believe in God, then you are absolved of all sins no matter how bad or evil they are but if you reject God even if you know that He exists, then you are condemned to eternal Hell or non-existence.

Elohim of Torah, speaks of the departed person in the Grave/pit/tomb, NOT ETERNAL, lasting until Restoration.
When the Greeks confiscated the Tanach, they, gave you eternal Hell, Immortal soul! The Hebrew aleph mem tav/truth there is no/nothing eternal with out Elohim sharing His Eternal Essence.

If your God is Greek and your Salvation is of the Greek, then maybe Elohim will grant you ETERNAL HELL! (Not really)

If your God is Elohim the God of Israel and your Salvation is Elohim's Yeshua, you will be raised up at the LAST TRUMP, and will be(He, Elohim promised)like Him. When Elohim koshers the earth with fire the wicked will be burned up with fervent heat, the Immortal Saved will tread on the ashes of the wicked.

This is my commentary, read all of the commentaries you wish to, but the Hebrew Bible/Tanach is the real deal and the NT aligns with it when it is not twisted.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way/derek, the truth/emet, and the life/chay: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

A double edged sword! This WAY revealed by the FATHER!
 
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