Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
And to what extent is sinning allowed? To what extent can a person sin and not end up having God "burning him as a devil"?
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A sick dogma!
- Thread starter RJ50
- Start date
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Whatever he says it is... And for the small price of 10 bucks in the collection plate...
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I don't believe that God tolerates sin. Period.
And He has definitely never implied that.
I realize that, as an atheist, you not only do not believe in "God" but that you don't believe in the concept of "sin," either. That wasn't really my point in posting. I just found it interesting that Hawkins apparently believes God will tolerate a certain amount of sin and that a person will not "burn" unless he exceeds that amount. I thought it would be interesting to know what amount of wiggle room we're actually working with here.
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I did not read "amount" in his post. I understood it as "kind". And I agree with him. But I'm probably wrong, and that's OK.
When sinning "extends" toward the Holy Spirit, it is not forgivable. Why should it be?
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
The Bible makes that pretty clear.
God specifically doesn't (assuming you believe in him), but the church certainly does imply it. When I went to church regularly it was implied that if you weren't an active member of the church (which included forking over your cash), that God would frown upon you and take extra notice of the bad things you did.
I'm interested in that as well. I never understood the concept of hell for that very reason. The Bible clearly states every sin is equal, yet people still go to hell for their sins while other people don't. What is the deciding factor in that judgement? Is it whether or not you've accepted Jesus or how "bad" God finds your particular sins?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree then. Hawkins said that it is when we sin "beyond a certain extent." I'm not quite getting how you can interpret that as "kind" as opposed to "degree," but if you do, you do.
I agree that the Bible says that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the one sin which cannot be forgiven. Quite possibly, I am interpreting this differently than you are. Would you mind explaining what you mean when you refer to a sin as "extending toward the Holy Spirit"?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I think I know which passage of scripture you're referring to. Other passages, however, imply that this is not the case.
From my perspective, it involves acknowledging your sins, repenting of them, and recognizing that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ they can be forgiven.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
That would contradict the statement that every sin is equal, making God a liar.
I am using the poster's word "extend". Extend does not refer to quantity. A sin against the Holy Spirit is the same as blasphemy imo. Do you want more?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Would you mind providing the scripture reference for the idea that "every sin is equal"?
Every sin is equal? I did not know that. Tell me, please, how it is so.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You're right. The word "extend" does not refer to quantity. "Beyond a certain extent," however, does -- at least in my opinion.
Only if you want to give me more.
Seriously, I have heard about as many definitions of what "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" as the number of people I've asked. So could you explain what you believe it means to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost (particularly as compared to blaspheme against the Father or the Son)?
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it - James 2:10
InChrist
Free4ever
I may be incorrect, but when I read this;
Originally Posted by Hawkins
In the end, God burns devils as sinning beyond a certain extent is not allowed.
I thought it meant that God is allowing this time period on earth where people choose God's way or sin and when the extent of this time is up then comes the final judgment and sin will be no more.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Yeah, that's the verse I thought you were thinking of. To me, that's not saying that all sins are "equal," but that any sin -- even a single sin -- can separate a person from God, and will do so unless atoned for by Jesus Christ. In other words, we're not just expected to choose which of God's commandments we should obey and which ones we can disregard. I don't feel that He's going to say, "Well, Katzpur, you kept most of the commandments, so you're okay. You're not going to burn because you got a relatively high score on the test." I believe that Jesus Christ's sacrifice atoned for all sins except the sin referred to in Luke 12:10...
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."
As to whether some sins are greater than others, I'd say this verse (John 19:11) addresses that question...
"Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Since three or four of us all seem to think Hawkins is saying something different, maybe it would be best to just wait for him to clarify what he meant.I may be incorrect, but when I read this;
Originally Posted by Hawkins
In the end, God burns devils as sinning beyond a certain extent is not allowed.
I thought it meant that God is allowing this time period on earth where people choose God's way or sin and when the extent of this time is up then comes the final judgment and sin will be no more.
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I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
I feel like it pretty specifically says "if you have committed one sin you have committed all of them", meaning if you have stolen something you are also guilty of murder, incest, adultery, etc. How does that not equate to every sin being equal?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I guess it depends on what you mean by "equal." First off, it definitely doesn't say that if you are guilty of committing one sin you are also guilty of commiting every other sin. It says that all sins can all result in permanent separation from God, so in that regard. So, yes, they're equal in terms of where they can lead. I can see where you're coming from. Do you see where I'm coming from with regards to Jesus saying that Judas was guilty of a greater sin than Pilate? If you do, why do you think He would have said that? Why would He have considered Judas' betrayal of Him as a greater sin than Pilate's intention to put Him to death?
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I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
I see where you're coming from, I just believe it to be a contradiction of the scripture I cited.