Originally, where did original sin come from?

Ken Brown · Jun 29, 2013

Pegg said:
where in the scriptures does it state this?

i think i see what you are saying, but i fear that you are misapplying Pauls words.
I dont believe Paul means that being created in the 'flesh' means we are sinners.
Rather, living according to imperfect fleshly desires is what constitutes sin. But there have been many righteous ones who have not lived in such a way as to strive for improper fleshly desires. Jesus said that we can live without those things... so it stands to reason that its not the body of flesh which makes us sinners. Its our own improper desires that constitute sin.

For example, Romans 1:26*That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27*and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error

the issue was not that they had fleshly bodies, but what they were doing with their bodies. They were 'inflamed in their lust' and did what was contrary to nature.

Hi Pegg, the FLESH is an adversary to the Spirit, and man, including Adam and Eve, was created FLESH:

Gal 5:16-17
(16) But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
(17) For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Paul used the Greek word "antikeimai" (G480) to describe how the flesh is an "adversary" or "opposed" to the Spirit. So it should be very clear that Elohim started EVERYONE out as His adversary, by creating us FLESH, and consigning EVERYONE to disobedience, including Adam and Eve (Rom 11:32).

You should also consider that Yeshua viewed anyone who committed sin, as a slave or servant of sin:

Joh 8:34
(34) Yeshua answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Obviously, a slave or servant of sin does not have any free choice or freedom FROM sin, but Yeshua came to FREE us from that SLAVERY, so that we would TURN from our iniquity:

Act 3:26
(26) Unto you first Elohim, having raised up his Son Yeshua, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

So, Yeshua's purpose was to set us FREE from our iniquities/sin:

Joh 8:36
(36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

And it is a life long process in blessing us so that we no longer live our lives in an ungodly fashion:

Tit 2:11-15
(11) For the grace of Elohim that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great Elohim and our Saviour Yeshua Messiah;
(14) Who gave Himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
(15) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Pegg, Elohim's plan was for us to FIRST be against Him so that He could teach us to overcome, and willingly follow Him from our broken hearts, as we see what our iniquity caused, the suffering and death of the Messiah (John 7:19, Acts 2:36-37, Zec 12:10). Hope this helps to clarify. KB

Ken Brown · Jun 29, 2013

sincerly said:
Hi KB,I do not find your understanding of the Scriptures any better than the Adversary Satan's.
It doesn't take one being made "flesh" to be a adversary of GOD'S Plan. Yes, those scriptures do acknowledge Satan as made without fault in the beginning. Like Eve, She was "deceived" by Satan , but Satan was deceived by his own lusts. Neither was the Will of the Father.(One third of the Angels will be lost from the ultimate Kingdom of GOD and unnumbered humans will comprise that continued "adversarial group" of lost beings.)

You need to rethink Paul's statements in Rom.7:7-25 and 1Tim.1:8-17.

Add Matt. 12:26-32 to the above. Adam and Eve DID NOT HAVE TO SIN/BE DISOBEDIENT----and neither do we. It is a choice. LOVE is the fulfilling of all the law.

Hi sincerly, I believe you will readily admit that IN you, that is your FLESH, dwelleth no good thing (Rom 7:18), but you want me to believe that in Adam's flesh was "perfection?" Yeshua states, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin," and last I checked, Adam and Eve committed sin, so that would make them a slave or servant of sin, and a slave really doesn't have any freedom of choice but to do their master's bidding. Adam and Eve had NO choice, because they were created flesh, and were consigned to disobedience (Rom 11:32). Please reconsider this issue. KB

sincerly · Jul 1, 2013

Ken Brown said:
Hi sincerly, I believe you will readily admit that IN you, that is your FLESH, dwelleth no good thing (Rom 7:18), but you want me to believe that in Adam's flesh was "perfection?" Yeshua states, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin," and last I checked, Adam and Eve committed sin, so that would make them a slave or servant of sin, and a slave really doesn't have any freedom of choice but to do their master's bidding. Adam and Eve had NO choice, because they were created flesh, and were consigned to disobedience (Rom 11:32). Please reconsider this issue. KB

Hi Ken,What is Paul discussing in Rom.7 and previously?? Sin and the wages of sin. It is by the Decalogue by/from which a knowledge of sin is made manifest.(Rom.3:20; 1John 3:4) "The law is holy, and the commandment is holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin".

Paul continues in Rom.8:6-7, "For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

I don't see where Adam and Eve continued with a "carnal mind" after they were Clothed in the animal skin which represented the death of Christ.

Paul kept the "carnal mind"(flesh---lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life) under control with such activities as he expressed in "I die daily" and "put aside the little sin which so easily besets"... (1Cor.15:31; Heb.12:1)

Freelance_Policeman · Jul 1, 2013

rusra02 said:
The rabbi is wrong, of course. A thief who claims not to believe the laws against stealing is not thereby proven innocent of theft.
Clearly, the Bible does teach that the first man Adam sinned, the original sin, by deliberately disobeying God's prohibition in Eden. The Christian Greek Scriptures clearly teach that "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men." (Romans 5:12) (BTW, note that the penalty for sin is death, not torment in a mythical hellfire.)
I believe pre-Christian worshippers of God did understand that they were sinful. Abel felt the need to sacrifice for his sin. (Genesis 4:4) David admitted: "Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5) The sacrifices offered for sin under the Mosaic Law were convincing proof of sin's reality.
Because sin leads to death, we need deliverance from this terrible plight, according to the Bible. Thus, I believe, the need for "Jesus Christ, a righteous one. And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world's." (1 John 2:1,2) This part of the Bible also makes this point: "If we make the statement "We have no sin," we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)

Yeah, I'm sure that Moses guy had no idea that he sinned. Or that David comprehended the fact that he had killed someone in order to marry his wife. Unenlightened savages, I'm sure. The only thing you have right is your conclusion from 1st John. See what Ezekiel and Isaiah had to say on the topic.

Abel sacrificed for his sin? There are other types of sacrifices, you know. I regard the sacrifices he made as peace offerings myself.

By the way, Rabbi Singer is awesome. I disagree with him about Jesus himself, but otherwise I support him 100%, especially regarding J4J.

CG Didymus · Jul 2, 2013

Freelance_Policeman said:
Yeah, I'm sure that Moses guy had no idea that he sinned. Or that David comprehended the fact that he had killed someone in order to marry his wife. Unenlightened savages, I'm sure. The only thing you have right is your conclusion from 1st John. See what Ezekiel and Isaiah had to say on the topic.

Abel sacrificed for his sin? There are other types of sacrifices, you know. I regard the sacrifices he made as peace offerings myself.

By the way, Rabbi Singer is awesome. I disagree with him about Jesus himself, but otherwise I support him 100%, especially regarding J4J.

It good to hear from an Ebionite/Nazarene. The original sin thing, if true, should have been a major doctrine of Judaism, but it's not. What are your thoughts on the subject?

sincerly · Jul 4, 2013

Freelance_Policeman said:
Yeah, I'm sure that Moses guy had no idea that he sinned. Or that David comprehended the fact that he had killed someone in order to marry his wife. Unenlightened savages, I'm sure. The only thing you have right is your conclusion from 1st John. See what Ezekiel and Isaiah had to say on the topic.

Moses acknowledged that his actions were not in line with the teachings of GOD. And so did David. Neither were "savages", but "sinful practices" was the thing all have to overcome and the principle to be learned. Both Repented, even with a lost of that which a loss of that which they had desired to Do in serving GOD. Both will be among the Redeemed--BY FAITH.

Freelance_Policeman said:
Abel sacrificed for his sin? There are other types of sacrifices, you know. I regard the sacrifices he made as peace offerings myself.

By the way, Rabbi Singer is awesome. I disagree with him about Jesus himself, but otherwise I support him 100%, especially regarding J4J.

Hi FP, "peace offering"? Not according the the Scriptures, for GOD said it wasn't acceptable; There is no reason a "peace offering" would not have been acceptable.
Gen.4:7 has this to say concerning Cain's sacrifice and attitude. "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. "

Who is "Awesome" is Jesus Christ who provided salvation for ALL who willingly accept the offer as designated.

sincerly · Jul 4, 2013

CG Didymus said:
It good to hear from an Ebionite/Nazarene. The original sin thing, if true, should have been a major doctrine of Judaism, but it's not. What are your thoughts on the subject?

Hi CG D, According to the Scriptures the consequences of SIN/Disobedience did pass to all mankind---Death. Not just the first Death, but the Second death. That's the one ALL mankind has to be reborn unto---by Faith.

CG Didymus · Jul 10, 2013

sincerly said:
Hi CG D, According to the Scriptures the consequences of SIN/Disobedience did pass to all mankind---Death. Not just the first Death, but the Second death. That's the one ALL mankind has to be reborn unto---by Faith.

That sounds very poetic, but does it make sense that all living things were eternal until Adam sinned? Did the Earth have volcanoes and earthquakes that would have killed microbes, insects, animals, plants and even humans? I know the claim that animals were vegetarians, so plant life died. And what if a microscopic bug was on that plant when it got eaten? What about a shark? What did they eat? Seaweed? What if it was meant to be allegorical? Like a story in other religions that are obviously not fact, but they still give us a spiritual truth?

sincerly · Jul 10, 2013

CG Didymus said:
That sounds very poetic, but does it make sense that all living things were eternal until Adam sinned? Did the Earth have volcanoes and earthquakes that would have killed microbes, insects, animals, plants and even humans? I know the claim that animals were vegetarians, so plant life died. And what if a microscopic bug was on that plant when it got eaten? What about a shark? What did they eat? Seaweed? What if it was meant to be allegorical? Like a story in other religions that are obviously not fact, but they still give us a spiritual truth?

Hi CG D, From my point of view, having lived through many "changes", I will welcome the "Restoration" back to the Edenic state. Yes, "in the last days, knowledge shall increase and men shall run to and fro". But, as is being seen, More inhumanity is shown to mankind than good is derived. Mens thoughts are only evil continually---as prophesied.

GOD had given plant life to be the nourishments for Animal life.---ALL things were created from the "earth".
No! It wasn't just allegorical---Gen.9:3-4; 7:2-3,7-9--The Creator GOD knows that which HE is Doing in the Redeeming of mankind unto HIMSELF.

FranklinMichaelV.3 · Jul 10, 2013

sincerly said:
Hi CG D, From my point of view, having lived through many "changes", I will welcome the "Restoration" back to the Edenic state. Yes, "in the last days, knowledge shall increase and men shall run to and fro". But, as is being seen, More inhumanity is shown to mankind than good is derived. Mens thoughts are only evil continually---as prophesied.

GOD had given plant life to be the nourishments for Animal life.---ALL things were created from the "earth".
No! It wasn't just allegorical---Gen.9:3-4; 7:2-3,7-9--The Creator GOD knows that which HE is Doing in the Redeeming of mankind unto HIMSELF.

Really? Cause apparently we are living in the most peaceful age ever.

I can walk down the street without being called the N word to my face or having to be worried about being lynched.

I was able to go to college and have now started on my path to a successful career.

While things are bad, they are certainly better then they were. People are living longer, healthier lives. People have access to rights that they were once denied.

The world isn't getting worst. I feel people who say things like that, don't really look at history all that well.

It's also strange to me how people still take Genesis literally. How would "original sin" even be transferred? Is it a spiritual thing? Then by what means was it passed on spiritually if each soul is created by God?

Is it physical? If so why would we need to worry for our souls?

Why were Adam and Eve able to sin in the first place? Also there is no proof that Adam and Eve were immortal in the garden, because what need would there have been for the tree of life?

sincerly · Jul 11, 2013

Originally Posted by sincerly

Hi CG D, From my point of view, having lived through many "changes", I will welcome the "Restoration" back to the Edenic state. Yes, "in the last days, knowledge shall increase and men shall run to and fro". But, as is being seen, More inhumanity is shown to mankind than good is derived. Mens thoughts are only evil continually---as prophesied.

GOD had given plant life to be the nourishments for Animal life.---ALL things were created from the "earth".
No! It wasn't just allegorical---Gen.9:3-4; 7:2-3,7-9--The Creator GOD knows that which HE is Doing in the Redeeming of mankind unto HIMSELF.

FranklinMichaelV.3 said:
Really? Cause apparently we are living in the most peaceful age ever.

Hi FMV3, Welcome to the forums.
Yes, really. Here in the USA(and vaguely, the world as a whole) in certain areas "things" may appear better, but (Your)"While things are bad, they are certainly better then they were." is "looking through rose colored glasses" at specific, but continued "biases"---By ALL "races" involving all subjects.

Did you ever think that Rev.7 and the "holding of the winds of strife" in check while GOD'S People are being "sealed" just might be the reason for the "relatively peaceful age"?

FranklinMichaelV.3 said:
I can walk down the street without being called the N word to my face or having to be worried about being lynched.

I was able to go to college and have now started on my path to a successful career.

People are living longer, healthier lives. People have access to rights that they were once denied.

The world isn't getting worst. I feel people who say things like that, don't really look at history all that well.

"Lynching" is out of style today. Those persons who are intolerant/just plain filled with hate use "firearms and explosive devices".(On all/whom so ever)
People do live a little longer, but are they "healthier?" Is the quality of life better---globally?
Isn't the hatred the Scriptures speaks of more of that toward GOD First and then mankind?

"Rights"? Whose ? You see GOD gave the correct idea/plan/pattern 4500 years ago with "love your neighbor as yourself"---Or the Golden Rule(treat others as you want to be treated). All races fall short of that goal as is very evident globally.

FranklinMichaelV.3 said:
It's also strange to me how people still take Genesis literally. How would "original sin" even be transferred? Is it a spiritual thing? Then by what means was it passed on spiritually if each soul is created by God?

Is it physical? If so why would we need to worry for our souls?

Why were Adam and Eve able to sin in the first place? Also there is no proof that Adam and Eve were immortal in the garden, because what need would there have been for the tree of life?

FMV3, Your questions reflect that you have little knowledge of the Creator GOD you protest against/doubt.

Why is believing in a Living Creator GOD more strange than believing all things one sees having as its origin "nothing"? The "soul" which that GOD created had a beginning and became a "living person/being.

FranklinMichaelV.3 · Jul 12, 2013

sincerly said:
Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi CG D, From my point of view, having lived through many "changes", I will welcome the "Restoration" back to the Edenic state. Yes, "in the last days, knowledge shall increase and men shall run to and fro". But, as is being seen, More inhumanity is shown to mankind than good is derived. Mens thoughts are only evil continually---as prophesied.

GOD had given plant life to be the nourishments for Animal life.---ALL things were created from the "earth".
No! It wasn't just allegorical---Gen.9:3-4; 7:2-3,7-9--The Creator GOD knows that which HE is Doing in the Redeeming of mankind unto HIMSELF.

Hi FMV3, Welcome to the forums.
Yes, really. Here in the USA(and vaguely, the world as a whole) in certain areas "things" may appear better, but (Your)"While things are bad, they are certainly better then they were." is "looking through rose colored glasses" at specific, but continued "biases"---By ALL "races" involving all subjects.

Did you ever think that Rev.7 and the "holding of the winds of strife" in check while GOD'S People are being "sealed" just might be the reason for the "relatively peaceful age"?

"Lynching" is out of style today. Those persons who are intolerant/just plain filled with hate use "firearms and explosive devices".(On all/whom so ever)
People do live a little longer, but are they "healthier?" Is the quality of life better---globally?
Isn't the hatred the Scriptures speaks of more of that toward GOD First and then mankind?

"Rights"? Whose ? You see GOD gave the correct idea/plan/pattern 4500 years ago with "love your neighbor as yourself"---Or the Golden Rule(treat others as you want to be treated). All races fall short of that goal as is very evident globally.

FMV3, Your questions reflect that you have little knowledge of the Creator GOD you protest against/doubt.

Why is believing in a Living Creator GOD more strange than believing all things one sees having as its origin "nothing"? The "soul" which that GOD created had a beginning and became a "living person/being.

False I believe in a creator I've studied the bible intensly I've also studied science I see genesis as allegorical as all nature from.which we can see disproves it as anything more. not all plant life is edible, probably majority are not to humans. Race relations have greatly improved and continues to do so, but like most things how we view each other is based on what we are taught. We see a push towards teaching tolerance and hopefully soon.a push to teaching acceptance. There is much that we have learned in psychology that shows the environment and genetics play a role on behavior, the idea that a persons is evil no longer exists. Ive worked in prisons and seen people who have done terrible things but when you learn the environment they grew up in, you see the cards they were dealt.

What is more interesting is that while you say that i do not understand you have not at all addressed my questions, simply because you do not have an answer. Even genesis which you would take literally indicates a distinction between the flesh and the spirit. The only lenses you can.view is one that you have been taught, limited to only a small knowledge. I stand by what I said those who consider a lost of humanity in this era are those who have not studied history.

Ken Brown · Jul 13, 2013

sincerly said:
Hi Ken,What is Paul discussing in Rom.7 and previously?? Sin and the wages of sin. It is by the Decalogue by/from which a knowledge of sin is made manifest.(Rom.3:20; 1John 3:4) "The law is holy, and the commandment is holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin".

Paul continues in Rom.8:6-7, "For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

I don't see where Adam and Eve continued with a "carnal mind" after they were Clothed in the animal skin which represented the death of Christ.

Paul kept the "carnal mind"(flesh---lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life) under control with such activities as he expressed in "I die daily" and "put aside the little sin which so easily besets"... (1Cor.15:31; Heb.12:1)

Hi sincerly, Romans 7 is very simple if one looks at this issue properly. Paul stated that he was SOLD under sin because he was CARNAL (v.14), and that IN his carnal flesh dwelleth no good thing (v.18). Adam and Eve were created carnal, the FIRST man was CARNAL (Gen 2:7), and so was his wife, she was flesh of his flesh, and they were both taken out of the earth as "earthy," just as all of the wild beasts were (Gen 2:19). Paul distinguishes the difference between Adam and Yeshua by making the point that Adam was taken out of the earth, earthy:

1Co 15:47
(47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

And just as Adam was created, so are those who are "earthy":

1Co 15:48
(48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

In Romans 7, Paul saw that he was sold under sin because he was just like how Adam was created, the first man was earthy, taken out of the earth, and formed into FLESH, in which dwelleth no good thing. Why is this so difficult to grasp? KB

sincerly · Jul 13, 2013

Ken Brown said:
Hi sincerly, Romans 7 is very simple if one looks at this issue properly. Paul stated that he was SOLD under sin because he was CARNAL (v.14), and that IN his carnal flesh dwelleth no good thing (v.18).

Hi Ken, "Properly"? Then let's look at the message Paul is relating here in this epistle to the Romans(God's people who at Rome---"To the Jew first and then the Gentile"---"to what advantage has the one?"--Wasn't it that they had been given the "Oracles of GOD?" (Rom.3) Doesn't vs.20 confirm that the Decalogue is "that which sin is known/identified"? Isn't that which 1 John 3:4 is saying the same, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. " now look at Rom.5:13, "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ..." and the previous vs.12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned":
Now go back to vs.11, " And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

Now back to Rom.7:5-7, "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet".

The condemnation of human Beings was due to Disobedience---NOT being made "Flesh"---as you contend.

Ken Brown said:
Adam and Eve were created carnal, the FIRST man was CARNAL (Gen 2:7), and so was his wife, she was flesh of his flesh, and they were both taken out of the earth as "earthy," just as all of the wild beasts were (Gen 2:19). Paul distinguishes the difference between Adam and Yeshua by making the point that Adam was taken out of the earth, earthy:

1Co 15:47
(47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

And just as Adam was created, so are those who are "earthy":

1Co 15:48
(48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

In Romans 7, Paul saw that he was sold under sin because he was just like how Adam was created, the first man was earthy, taken out of the earth, and formed into FLESH, in which dwelleth no good thing. Why is this so difficult to grasp? KB

What Paul has said in Rom.7:14 is that there was no condemnation (his selling himself to the father of sin") until the Decalogue/Law was made known. It was then that Paul saw the wretchedness of no hope but the penalty of death without the Justification one obtains by "FAITH IN THE CLEANSING BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST".

Yes, Why is that hard to grasp?

Monotheist 101 · Jul 13, 2013

Have a question for Christians with Biblical knowledge.

(Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
(Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the fathers iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the sons iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

How does the above fit in with the concept of Original Sin? A Catholic friend of mine explained that it was Eve who committed the Sin and she is the mother so it doesnt apply..that raised a whole new set of questions for me..should the rest of the Bible be interpreted in a strictly literal way aswell?

Shiranui117 · Jul 13, 2013

Monotheist 101 said:
Have a question for Christians with Biblical knowledge.

(Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."

(Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the fathers iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the sons iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

How does the above fit in with the concept of Original Sin? A Catholic friend of mine explained that it was Eve who committed the Sin and she is the mother so it doesnt apply..that raised a whole new set of questions for me..should the rest of the Bible be interpreted in a strictly literal way aswell?

We are not guilty of Adam's sin (as Augustine wrongly taught, based on a faulty Latin translation of Romans 5:12). Catholics are beginning to move away from the understanding that we are personally guilty of the sin of our first parents. According to Orthodox theology, Adam and Eve's sin introduced mortality, tendency to sin, enslavement to sin and death, separation from God, and suffering into human nature--but we are most certainly NOT guilty of Adam and Eve's sin, nor do we share in any way in their guilt.

Ken Brown · Jul 13, 2013

sincerly said:
Hi Ken, "Properly"? Then let's look at the message Paul is relating here in this epistle to the Romans(God's people who at Rome---"To the Jew first and then the Gentile"---"to what advantage has the one?"--Wasn't it that they had been given the "Oracles of GOD?" (Rom.3) Doesn't vs.20 confirm that the Decalogue is "that which sin is known/identified"? Isn't that which 1 John 3:4 is saying the same, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. " now look at Rom.5:13, "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ..." and the previous vs.12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned":
Now go back to vs.11, " And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

Now back to Rom.7:5-7, "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet".

The condemnation of human Beings was due to Disobedience---NOT being made "Flesh"---as you contend.

What Paul has said in Rom.7:14 is that there was no condemnation (his selling himself to the father of sin") until the Decalogue/Law was made known. It was then that Paul saw the wretchedness of no hope but the penalty of death without the Justification one obtains by "FAITH IN THE CLEANSING BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST".

Yes, Why is that hard to grasp?

Hi sincerly, first, you must remove from your thinking that ONLY the 10 commandments are sin. The WHOLE Law defines and places us UNDER sin, it is not just the Decalogue as you erroneously believe.

Secondly, you, along with traditional chrisitianity fails to understand how the WHOLE Law (The Old Covenant) was ADDED to the Covenant made with Abraham so that the TRANSGRESSION of Adam would be INCREASED. Adam was given a command, and his carnal or fleshly nature could not and would not obey, just as when the WHOLE Law was given, the fleshly or carnal nature of man could not and would not obey. There was NO FREE CHOICE, the ONLY choice was choosing which command to break, according to how each individuals lusts and desires of their flesh went.

Thirdly, I honestly do not see how Romans 7:20 says anything about the Decalogue as you proposed.

So sincerly, you need to honestly go back to the drawing board and re-evaluate your stand on Adam and Eve, and come to terms with the fact that Elohim consigned them to disobedience by creating them flesh, just as He consigned ALL of mankind to disobedience, as the Scripture states. KB

sincerly · Jul 14, 2013

Ken Brown said:
Hi sincerly, first, you must remove from your thinking that ONLY the 10 commandments are sin. The WHOLE Law defines and places us UNDER sin, it is not just the Decalogue as you erroneously believe.

Secondly, you, along with traditional chrisitianity fails to understand how the WHOLE Law (The Old Covenant) was ADDED to the Covenant made with Abraham so that the TRANSGRESSION of Adam would be INCREASED. Adam was given a command, and his carnal or fleshly nature could not and would not obey, just as when the WHOLE Law was given, the fleshly or carnal nature of man could not and would not obey. There was NO FREE CHOICE, the ONLY choice was choosing which command to break, according to how each individuals lusts and desires of their flesh went.

Thirdly, I honestly do not see how Romans 7:20 says anything about the Decalogue as you proposed.

So sincerly, you need to honestly go back to the drawing board and re-evaluate your stand on Adam and Eve, and come to terms with the fact that Elohim consigned them to disobedience by creating them flesh, just as He consigned ALL of mankind to disobedience, as the Scripture states. KB

Hi Ken, and that is the problem, your "I honestly do not see"---and from your posts there is no acknowledging that the Scriptures are correct and your presentation is what is in error.
Rom.7:20 verifies that fact. Your "secondly" acknowledged, """"There was NO FREE CHOICE, the ONLY choice was choosing which command to break, according to how each individuals lusts and desires of their flesh went."""
However, "covetousness/lusting" is the Tenth Commandment of the Decalogue----the document/standard by which SIN IS KNOWN. Yes, there was a free choice to Obey GOD Or to disobey GOD.
It was the choice of the carnal minded rather than of the "Spiritual minded" which had been deceived in Eve and and given into by Adam.

Your other "stretches" of the Scriptures still do NOT support your conclusions.
And as 2Pet.3:9 informs, it has never been GOD'S intentions for any to "perish, but for all to come to repentance".
Your conclusion has put GOD as a liar.

Ken Brown · Jul 15, 2013

sincerly said:
Hi Ken, and that is the problem, your "I honestly do not see"---and from your posts there is no acknowledging that the Scriptures are correct and your presentation is what is in error.
Rom.7:20 verifies that fact. Your "secondly" acknowledged, """"There was NO FREE CHOICE, the ONLY choice was choosing which command to break, according to how each individuals lusts and desires of their flesh went."""
However, "covetousness/lusting" is the Tenth Commandment of the Decalogue----the document/standard by which SIN IS KNOWN. Yes, there was a free choice to Obey GOD Or to disobey GOD.
It was the choice of the carnal minded rather than of the "Spiritual minded" which had been deceived in Eve and and given into by Adam.

Your other "stretches" of the Scriptures still do NOT support your conclusions.
And as 2Pet.3:9 informs, it has never been GOD'S intentions for any to "perish, but for all to come to repentance".
Your conclusion has put GOD as a liar.

Hi sincerly, my conclusion has not put Elohim as a liar. He is very patient and desires ALL to come to the Knowledge of the Truth and REPENT from their evil ways.

Now, please answer me. Are the 606 commands that are outside of the "Decalogue" sin if you break them? KB

CG Didymus · Jul 16, 2013

sincerly said:
...It was the choice of the carnal minded rather than of the "Spiritual minded" which had been deceived in Eve and and given into by Adam.

...it has never been GOD'S intentions for any to "perish, but for all to come to repentance".

The creation, man, wasn't "perfect" or "good" if he was carnal and had the ability to disobey. It is obvious we do have the ability to make good and bad choices. It is obvious we need laws to help control are worst inclinations. But, to think there was ever a time when "death" wasn't part of the plan? That's hard to believe. Things grow and die. What was the original plan? To have babies and that they would reach maturity and never get any older? And, somehow, that makes sense to you? If the Bible is literally true then God caused a lot of people to perish. How hard would it have been for him to shower a few blessings on those people and at least get a few of them to repent?

And what about God's adversary? Where did the evil come from that got into him? Where did that original prideful, sinful thought come from? Was he created flawed? Did he have free will to choose between right and wrong? Like the rest of us, does he sometimes choose good? Does he have the ability to repent? If not, who hardened his heart? Who blinded him? If it was his sin, then who made the rules and defined what sin is? And then make creatures that would "love" sin and the darkness more than the light? Something is strange here, God did all the creating. If Jesus is God, then he created sin and the darkness and our inclination to sin. For what? To see if we'd turn to him and his loving kindness? It sounds messed up to me. I'll thank you in advance for your explanations. Thanks Sincerly for your time and patience.

Originally, where did original sin come from?

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