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Luke 4:43 What is the Gospel of the Kingdom

Rejoran

Member
I don't know for sure. Let's just say it is in regards to righteousness according to works, not according to sins. Does that make sense?

So the kingdom is each person's righteousness with God, not before God.

If we work according to the oneness of God, Christ and the congregation, our works will be for peace, not war. How can Heaven judge warring nations if God comes to war? It can't imo.
You threw me off on that last sentence, but I agree with everything else.
I believe the kingdom is everything you said, plus his church and God's dominion over his people, angels, etc, and also God's movement started on the day of Penetecost, but not only. Either way, it's good news because God's prescence on earth was prophesied to come in a big way.
Luke 9:27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

P.S. - And correct, not in a warlike secular fashion.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
]You threw me off on that last sentence[/B], but I agree with everything else.
I believe the kingdom is everything you said, plus his church and God's dominion over his people, angels, etc, and also God's movement started on the day of Penetecost, but not only. Either way, it's good news because God's presence on earth was prophesied to come in a big way.

P.S. - And correct, not in a warlike secular fashion.

OK. There is nothing Heaven cannot do. But it is my opinion that Heaven would be sacrificing Heaven's righteousness if it is threatening war.

I am sure I have a difference of opinion about what Daniel 2:44 means.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To threaten the nations of Earth with war means making allowance for them to rally for war. Isn't that simple logic?
 

Rejoran

Member
OK. There is nothing Heaven cannot do. But it is my opinion that Heaven would be sacrificing Heaven's righteousness if it is threatening war.

I am sure I have a difference of opinion about what Daniel 2:44 means.
Let's see. I believe the boulder is God's kingdom which smashes the other kingdom, gows into a mountain, and lasts forever. That it actually says. The feet in the statue, if you count the kingdoms after Nebuchanezzer's, is Rome. The kingdom arrived during the Roman empire and grew into that great mountain.

In terms of smashing it, it wasn't done by man's hands, but by God's.
There is an amazing historical correlation between the times that Rome officially persecuted the christians and destabilization. After Nero persecuted them, he killed himself and Rome was thrown into Civil war. Vespasian restored order to Rome. Later on Marcus Aurelius ruthlessly persecuted the christians (the old emperor in the beginning of the movie Gladiator), and after he died, his son Commodus threw Rome into another frenzy cascading into yet more infighting between Generals. Later on, Diocletian stabilized Rome, but he also persecuted the christians. After he abdicated, Rome went back to infighting, and this time, Rome didn't recover. It went downhill until the germans took over in 476 A.D.

I'm not saying for certain that this is what the smashing meant -I can't. But at the very least, the kingdom was established during the days of Rome and has not been conquered since.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Smashing relative to God's Kingdom. not relative to Earth's kingdoms. I believe it is possible for nations to exist alongside God's Kingdom, even in real harmony with true prophesy. It is not likely.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but the scriptures say otherwise.
God expects worship and repentance.
John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Matthew 3:2
and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Mark 1:15
“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

Repentance is to stop doing what you have done and acknowledge it is wrong, more importantly it is also to not repeat it. As such you honor and worship God by forgiving your brethren and treating them with love.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Matthew 3:5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Mark 1:4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Luke 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

John was speaking of sins in general, to repent of whatever sins the people had committed. Each person had their own sin:
Luke 3:12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”
13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.
14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”
He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

Not a list of sins he had pre-planned.
Rejoran, thanks for your reply and please give me your attention for a moment though I know you are involved in another discussion. As you are 'Re-assembling' Christianity from the Bible you cannot rely upon assumptions. I call into question an assumption about 'Sin' in the above post, and I recommend that it is like a wrench falling into the cogs. It does not fit or turn. You have assumed that John's "Repentance for forgiveness of sins" is about erasing wicked deeds, but reconsider what is being said. It is a forgiveness of status, allowing gentiles to approach the throne of grace. (Hebrews 4:16), whereas before no one but the high priest could do so.

Purposeful sins are only forgiven through prayer and restoration, not through sacrifice; and they never were. John is talking about the other kind of sin, the sin of not being consecrated, or not being Jewish enough, not wearing tassels, not doing all the Jewish things. John preached that merely by repenting of evil acts a person was elevated in status, no longer needing to keep special rules. A soldier could be right with God. A tax collector could be right with God! Despite being unclean, despite dealing with dirty money they could be as a Jew and approach the throne of grace.

You in Church of Christ membership are aware of the multiple kinds of 'Sin' in the laws and prophets, that not all sins are the same. Some are wicked, some are iniquitous, some accidental and so forth. None of the sacrifices are for purposeful wicked acts. John the Baptist angered the pharisees, temple priests and Sadducee but they weren't angered by preaching repentance itself. They would have been joyful for someone to preach repentance as they themselves did! No, their problem was their 'Big brother' attitude toward Samaritans and unclean Jews like the big brother in Jesus story of the prodigal son, and they rejected the new status John the Baptist was preaching for all humankind.

I call your attention back to Luke 3:12-14 again. Consider what Jesus enemies would have said in his place -- what advice they would have given. They would have said "Repent of doing so and so and then also be circumcised and abide by all of the following....then you will be restored" Why didn't Jesus give the same advice? It is too obvious that of course a tax collector shouldn't ask for more than required. It is obvious that a soldier shouldn't accuse people falsely. It is plain in the Law that repentance is required to be forgiven of wicked deeds. No, this was not where Jesus and John b. differed from Israel's leaders. They removed the necessity of those leaders and preached a forgiveness that brought all humankind to equality with a Jew.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
John is talking about the other kind of sin, the sin of not being consecrated, or not being Jewish enough, not wearing tassels, not doing all the Jewish things. John preached that merely by repenting of evil acts a person was elevated in status, no longer needing to keep special rules. A soldier could be right with God. A tax collector could be right with God!

Good point. A soldier or a tax collector cannot do good works for the Kingdom of God when their focus was directed by the religious leaders to the sinner's inadequacies.
 

Rejoran

Member
Rejoran, thanks for your reply and please give me your attention for a moment though I know you are involved in another discussion. As you are 'Re-assembling' Christianity from the Bible you cannot rely upon assumptions. I call into question an assumption about 'Sin' in the above post, and I recommend that it is like a wrench falling into the cogs. It does not fit or turn. You have assumed that John's "Repentance for forgiveness of sins" is about erasing wicked deeds, but reconsider what is being said. It is a forgiveness of status, allowing gentiles to approach the throne of grace. (Hebrews 4:16), whereas before no one but the high priest could do so.

Purposeful sins are only forgiven through prayer and restoration, not through sacrifice; and they never were. John is talking about the other kind of sin, the sin of not being consecrated, or not being Jewish enough, not wearing tassels, not doing all the Jewish things. John preached that merely by repenting of evil acts a person was elevated in status, no longer needing to keep special rules. A soldier could be right with God. A tax collector could be right with God! Despite being unclean, despite dealing with dirty money they could be as a Jew and approach the throne of grace.

You in Church of Christ membership are aware of the multiple kinds of 'Sin' in the laws and prophets, that not all sins are the same. Some are wicked, some are iniquitous, some accidental and so forth. None of the sacrifices are for purposeful wicked acts. John the Baptist angered the pharisees, temple priests and Sadducee but they weren't angered by preaching repentance itself. They would have been joyful for someone to preach repentance as they themselves did! No, their problem was their 'Big brother' attitude toward Samaritans and unclean Jews like the big brother in Jesus story of the prodigal son, and they rejected the new status John the Baptist was preaching for all humankind.

I call your attention back to Luke 3:12-14 again. Consider what Jesus enemies would have said in his place -- what advice they would have given. They would have said "Repent of doing so and so and then also be circumcised and abide by all of the following....then you will be restored" Why didn't Jesus give the same advice? It is too obvious that of course a tax collector shouldn't ask for more than required. It is obvious that a soldier shouldn't accuse people falsely. It is plain in the Law that repentance is required to be forgiven of wicked deeds. No, this was not where Jesus and John b. differed from Israel's leaders. They removed the necessity of those leaders and preached a forgiveness that brought all humankind to equality with a Jew.
I had never before noticed that John was also talking to gentiles and giving them the same opportunities as he gave to the Jews. Thank you for illuminating that.
However wasn't John giving Jews opportunities to repent also? Wasn't he calling gentiles and Jews alike the opportunity to get right with God? In this sense, he was evening the playing field, but more as a side effect, not as intent.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Ok, but jesus said
John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

In response to being called the king of a people who rejected Him. Despite saying that salvation is of the Jews, He somehow relates that His kingdom originates elsewhere. And it does. It originates at the origin, not only of the Jews, but of creation. His kingdom is of God, not the Jews. The salvation of the Jews must originate with God, and not themselves. So as Jesus said, the need to fight which is of the world of death, is not necessary to the living God. The sons of man are lord over their sabbaths. The sons of God are lords over their resurrections. But His kingdom fills, and will fill, the entire universe.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Rejoran said:
I had never before noticed that John was also talking to gentiles and giving them the same opportunities as he gave to the Jews. Thank you for illuminating that.
Um...I'm not sure about all that. Its a discussion we could have. I'm sure the Holy Spirit can give you illumination without me and that were we to walk away without speaking to one another all would be just fine.

Rejoran said:
However wasn't John giving Jews opportunities to repent also? Wasn't he calling gentiles and Jews alike the opportunity to get right with God?
I supplement with Paul's letters on this, which seem to say that Jews are still benefited by following Mosaic law (advantages in every way) but that they are not better off than those who are in Christ. John's message of repentance to Jews would seem ironic, except that he is the voice in the wilderness. He preaches not just 'Repentance' but that repentance brings forgiveness of sins adding "And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham." I don't think he was releasing Jews from their responsibilities, but I think they were excited to see the Word come to be among all people. All of the passages in the prophets about how the Gentiles would become holy, these John was bringing into focus. The Jewish common folk were happy about it, and they were getting baptized into it. The leaders were stalling and asking for miraculous signs first. That is my answer to your terrific question.


********** for those who are not deeply initiated into all of this technical information
Jesus inherits the message and ministry of John B. John the Baptist comes as the voice in the wilderness, and the voice announces leveling the high places and raising up low places. (A Jew in those days would make various offerings and would meditate etc. in order to get closer to God, so that they could bring the benefits back to humanity. A priest would strive to do even more and to get even higher, to attain the next rung up the spiritual ladder.) The voice says all that is going to change, all will be level from now on. The priests and leaders know Isaiah's writings and know what what the voice is about, but they disagree upon the timing. They don't believe John is the voice. --> they don't believe Jesus either.
 
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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I realize this is what you are thinking, and I appreciate your sharing this idea. Would you consider that the confession of sins in this case might be the humble confession that God alone is wise and that every man is a liar? In Jesus preaching there is a major upset against contemporary wisdom of his day. There are several scripture verses about how the wisdom of mankind has been made foolish, actually many scripture verses about it. One could write an entire book about it.
Jesus baptism is a kind of judgment against mankind, and you either accept it or not. He asks his disciples "Can you drink from the same cup or can you manage being baptized with the same baptism as me?" (Mark 10:38) John B. asks the Pharisees who come to hear him "Who warned you about the coming wrath?" (Luke 3:7) His judgment (building upon Paul's research) is against the law of sin in the flesh, and this is what I refer to when discussing confession of sins. Confessing this is more than words but takes a humble position in speech and thought, and I think James explains it the best.
The prophets did good and did a lot of research, but neither Moses nor Jews ever thought that the law of Moses was the endgame. They were promised, that it would be eternal and that eventually everyone would be blessed (happy) because of them. On the other hand Noah was given a law for all mankind that would come to an end, and I think that is the one to suspect. I think this is the reason Paul could preach the end of the law that we were all bound to, yet he could keep the Mosaic law etc. Christians must live by a law of the spirit now. I realize we are moving a little bit away from the topic, but I think we are enjoying ourselves. Anyway, I think this also speaks to what Peg & Savagewind are discussing about covenants.

We agree for the most part. I won't highlight our differences.
 

Rejoran

Member
Yes there are. What do you say the gospel of the Kingdom is?
Posts 15 and 41.

To my best understanding, it sounds like a citizenship within God's spiritual kingdom, including, but not limited to his church established in Acts.

I believe the kingdom is everything you said, plus his church and God's dominion over his people, angels, etc, and also God's movement started on the day of Penetecost, but not only. Either way, it's good news because God's prescence on earth was prophesied to come in a big way.
Luke 9:27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

P.S. - And correct, not in a warlike secular kingdom.
 
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