Luke 4:43 What is the Gospel of the Kingdom

Sleeppy said:

Except baptism is an act of worship, bringing those of guilt toward freedom from guilt and continual sin.

Click to expand...

Biblically I don't see support for that position. Naaman bathed seven times to be cured of his leprosy, but he was not worshiping when he did it. Traditionally it was symbolic for sanctification, setting the person aside for fellowship. This was preparation for fellowship, but it did not remove the effects of wicked behavior. John came preaching against the establishment, preaching against the wealthy, and he was preaching against the temple priests or at least the way they were doing things. He was a 'Voice in the wilderness' which means he was preaching Isaiah 40 the bits about "grass withers and flowers fade." James preaches along the same lines in his letter.

When John baptized it was a baptism into the message that God grants wisdom to anyone who asks. This message did not sit well with many in leadership, and they would not accept his message. They were the builders rejecting the "Stone that the builders rejected which has been made into the capstone." The Pharisees believed strongly in the brand of their sect, which is why John called the Pharisees 'Vipers'. They were not desiring to break commandments at all or do people harm. They were set in their ways and methods and this made them inflexible, ultimately causing them to err.

Brickjectivity said:

Biblically I don't see support for that position. Naaman bathed seven times to be cured of his leprosy, but he was not worshiping when he did it. Traditionally it was symbolic for sanctification, setting the person aside for fellowship. This was preparation for fellowship, but it did not remove the effects of wicked behavior. John came preaching against the establishment, preaching against the wealthy, and he was preaching against the temple priests or at least the way they were doing things. He was a 'Voice in the wilderness' which means he was preaching Isaiah 40 the bits about "grass withers and flowers fade." James preaches along the same lines in his letter.

When John baptized it was a baptism into the message that God grants wisdom to anyone who asks. This message did not sit well with many in leadership, and they would not accept his message. They were the builders rejecting the "Stone that the builders rejected which has been made into the capstone." The Pharisees believed strongly in the brand of their sect, which is why John called the Pharisees 'Vipers'. They were not desiring to break commandments at all or do people harm. They were set in their ways and methods and this made them inflexible, ultimately causing them to err.

Click to expand...

John baptized with water. He was a sign to the people, causing some of them to repent. 'There's a man out in the desert cleansing people of their sinful behaviors!' But after John prepared the way, Jesus did introduce the same ones baptized to the perfect wisdom of the Spirit, as you say. The perfect baptism. The prophets saw their traditions and laws were continually becoming ineffective. So they produced or recommended alternatives.

Pegg said:

(Isaiah 60:12) For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation

basically this is telling us that when Gods Kingdom becomes established over mankind, it will be a complete rulership....there will be no choice but to submit to it.

That is why Daniel says that the kingdom 'will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms' because only Gods rulership is what we will eventually have. Human rulership is soon to end because God will not permit it to continue.

Click to expand...

The question is what is the good news that Jesus preached. You are quoting from the scriptures that preceded him. What are the scriptures attributed to Jesus that say what you say? You once wrote that we must "think, look and act" as he did. I believe he taught the opposite of war. You seem to be saying the good news IS WAR. How so please?

savagewind said:

The question is what is the good news that Jesus preached. You are quoting from the scriptures that preceded him. What are the scriptures attributed to Jesus that say what you say? You once wrote that we must "think, look and act" as he did. I believe he taught the opposite of war. You seem to be saying the good news IS WAR. How so please?

Click to expand...

the good news is that the Kingdom of God will end human rulership. That is the good news Jesus preached.

Matthew 3:3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de′a, 2*saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”


Matthew 4:17*From that time on Jesus commenced preaching and saying: “Repent, YOU people, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”

Luke 10:8*“Also, wherever YOU enter into a city and they receive YOU, eat the things set before YOU, 9*and cure the sick ones in it, and go on telling them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to YOU.’


To know what John and Jesus were talking about you have to go back to the hebrew scriptures because that is where the idea comes from.

Pegg said:

the good news is that the Kingdom of God will end human rulership. That is the good news Jesus preached.

Matthew 3:3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de′a, 2*saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”


Matthew 4:17*From that time on Jesus commenced preaching and saying: “Repent, YOU people, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”

Luke 10:8*“Also, wherever YOU enter into a city and they receive YOU, eat the things set before YOU, 9*and cure the sick ones in it, and go on telling them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to YOU.’


To know what John and Jesus were talking about you have to go back to the hebrew scriptures because that is where the idea comes from.

Click to expand...

But you also believe there is an old covenant that was done away with and the new covenant that Jesus instrumented. It seems to me you want your cake and eat it too.

The Kingdom of God never deviates from righteousness. No enemy, even death, can overcome it. It lasts forever.

Rejoran said:

Agreed. But how does it take shape in the NT? What is it?

Click to expand...

I do not presume to be a teacher and I might be the least qualified to answer "what is it?" but I shall give it ago because you have asked.

It always was interesting to me that The Kingdom and what it was like was always changing in regard to the teaching of Jesus. Why? It was a farmer, virgins, a mustard plant, a huge tree. The only way that makes sense to me is that it is always in relation to something else. The world deviates from righteousness, that's a given. I do not know how anyone can deny that. Is the kingdom deviating with it? Of course not. It must be deviating because of it. If anything would do that I call it perfect righteousness.

I believe it is still present and stronger than ever so it's enemies have not conquered it. Jesus' death that he prophesied and taught did not end it.

It is linked to God The Father and Creator thus it will last forever.

savagewind said:

But you also believe there is an old covenant that was done away with and the new covenant that Jesus instrumented. It seems to me you want your cake and eat it too.

Click to expand...

have your cake and eat it too??? how does that even compute in this discussion?

Pegg said:

have your cake and eat it too??? how does that even compute in this discussion?

Click to expand...

Israel baked the cake. You believe like Israel believed. They believed Messiah would deliver them. You believe it too. I never really got the reason for "have your cake and eat it too". Of course I can eat my cake. What's wrong with that? But I think it applies.

What I mean is WAR is NOT good news. How is it good news?

Someone bakes me a cake! It looks really pretty so I eat some. It is sweet and delicious so I eat too much. Now I am sorry. You are expecting too much from The Christ I bet.

Peg, you are saying the good news of the kingdom is it will accomplish the goal of the kingdom to replace all human governmental authority. Correct?

What scripture in the Greek Scriptures do you have that promises success in that, please?

The Greek Scriptures because that is what we are talking about.

One thing I know about war is goals are never disclosed. It is what spying is all about.

I say the good news IS the Kingdom. You say the good news is what the kingdom will do. I can not disagree with you more than I do.

Sleeppy said:

John baptized with water. He was a sign to the people, causing some of them to repent. 'There's a man out in the desert cleansing people of their sinful behaviors!'

Click to expand...

I realize this is what you are thinking, and I appreciate your sharing this idea. Would you consider that the confession of sins in this case might be the humble confession that God alone is wise and that every man is a liar? In Jesus preaching there is a major upset against contemporary wisdom of his day. There are several scripture verses about how the wisdom of mankind has been made foolish, actually many scripture verses about it. One could write an entire book about it.

But after John prepared the way, Jesus did introduce the same ones baptized to the perfect wisdom of the Spirit, as you say. The perfect baptism.

Click to expand...

Jesus baptism is a kind of judgment against mankind, and you either accept it or not. He asks his disciples "Can you drink from the same cup or can you manage being baptized with the same baptism as me?" (Mark 10:38) John B. asks the Pharisees who come to hear him "Who warned you about the coming wrath?" (Luke 3:7) His judgment (building upon Paul's research) is against the law of sin in the flesh, and this is what I refer to when discussing confession of sins. Confessing this is more than words but takes a humble position in speech and thought, and I think James explains it the best.

The prophets saw their traditions and laws were continually becoming ineffective. So they produced or recommended alternatives.

Click to expand...

The prophets did good and did a lot of research, but neither Moses nor Jews ever thought that the law of Moses was the endgame. They were promised, that it would be eternal and that eventually everyone would be blessed (happy) because of them. On the other hand Noah was given a law for all mankind that would come to an end, and I think that is the one to suspect. I think this is the reason Paul could preach the end of the law that we were all bound to, yet he could keep the Mosaic law etc. Christians must live by a law of the spirit now. I realize we are moving a little bit away from the topic, but I think we are enjoying ourselves. Anyway, I think this also speaks to what Peg & Savagewind are discussing about covenants.

Matthew 3:3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de′a, 2*saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”
Matthew 4:17*From that time on Jesus commenced preaching and saying: “Repent, YOU people, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”

Has the kingdom come near to destroy them or to help them? Heaven helping is the good news. Heaven interested is GOOD NEWS. Strength for righteousness is GOOD NEWS. Overcoming death is GOOD NEWS. LOVE is GOOD NEWS.

I shall ask once again Pegg. HOW is war GOOD NEWS?

. Christians must live by a law of the spirit now. I realize we are moving a little bit away from the topic, but I think we are enjoying ourselves. Anyway, I think this also speaks to what Peg & Savagewind are discussing about covenants.

Click to expand...

You mean about cake. I agree! Both baptism and cake are off topic.

Awoon said:

I didn't think you would understand the Aramaic Semitic teachings.

Click to expand...

Do the Aramaic Semitic teachings leave out or deny John 4 and Jesus's explicit expectation of worship?

Sleeppy said:

Countless political kingdoms. I see countless democracies of kings, all inheriting the expanding universe, by all manners of powers from God. All having peace in the understanding of grace and shared prosperity.

Click to expand...

Ok, but jesus said
John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Pegg said:

(Isaiah 60:12) For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation

basically this is telling us that when Gods Kingdom becomes established over mankind, it will be a complete rulership....there will be no choice but to submit to it.

That is why Daniel says that the kingdom 'will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms' because only Gods rulership is what we will eventually have. Human rulership is soon to end because God will not permit it to continue.

Click to expand...

Again, I agree with prophecied coming of the kingdom, but I don't think Isaiah 60 is a poster child verse. Isaiah 61 says it's talking about Zion. The kingdom in John 18:36 isn't one where human rulership is soon to end because God will not permit it to continue.

Brickjectivity said:

What you have said makes sense to me. The repentance that Jesus preached was to Jewish people who already were living righteous lives. The repentance demanded was for them to accept what John the Baptist had been preaching. (Matthew 21:32). To presume that Jesus was simply preaching repentance from wicked acts -- this is not present in the text and is being projected upon it by Rejoran. Jesus was preaching repentance from something but it was related to John the Baptist's message -- essentially very close to what you were saying, Awoon. But you already knew that I suppose.

Click to expand...

Matthew 3:5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Mark 1:4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Luke 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

John was speaking of sins in general, to repent of whatever sins the people had committed. Each person had their own sin:
Luke 3:12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”
13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.
14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”
He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”

Not a list of sins he had pre-planned.

savagewind said:

The question is what is the good news that Jesus preached. You are quoting from the scriptures that preceded him. What are the scriptures attributed to Jesus that say what you say? You once wrote that we must "think, look and act" as he did. I believe he taught the opposite of war. You seem to be saying the good news IS WAR. How so please?

Click to expand...

I agree with you savagewind.

savagewind said:

The Kingdom of God never deviates from righteousness. No enemy, even death, can overcome it. It lasts forever.



I do not presume to be a teacher and I might be the least qualified to answer "what is it?" but I shall give it ago because you have asked.

It always was interesting to me that The Kingdom and what it was like was always changing in regard to the teaching of Jesus. Why? It was a farmer, virgins, a mustard plant, a huge tree. The only way that makes sense to me is that it is always in relation to something else. The world deviates from righteousness, that's a given. I do not know how anyone can deny that. Is the kingdom deviating with it? Of course not. It must be deviating because of it. If anything would do that I call it perfect righteousness.

I believe it is still present and stronger than ever so it's enemies have not conquered it. Jesus' death that he prophesied and taught did not end it.

It is linked to God The Father and Creator thus it will last forever.

Click to expand...

So your saying the kingdom is each person's righteousness before God? Just asking at this point.

Rejoran said:

So your saying the kingdom is each person's righteousness before God? Just asking at this point.

Click to expand...

I don't know for sure. Let's just say it is in regards to righteousness according to works, not according to sins. Does that make sense?

So the kingdom is each person's righteousness with God, not before God.

If we work according to the oneness of God, Christ and the congregation, our works will be for peace, not war. How can Heaven judge warring nations if God comes to war? It can't imo.