For those who do not accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God...

dawny0826 · Feb 2, 2006

I'm curious. It's been really interesting for me to post here and to encounter people of like faith who interpret the Bible so much differently than I do. I want to learn and understand how others process the Bible.

I'm truly interested for input from those who do not believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God...when you read scripture...like the scripture below, what do you make of it? What is your personal interpretation? What do you think Jesus is saying to us? Do you read this as something literal or figurative?

In this scripture, Jesus is traveling to Jerusalem, and he's asked "Lord, are there few who are saved?"

And this is his reply...

"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying "Lord, Lord, open for us, and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from." Then you will begin to say, "We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets." But He will say, "I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, and all you workers of iniquity." There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and yourselves thrust out."

Luke 13:24-28 (NKJV)

Edit: Please note, I know I've posted a poll about Bible interpretation...I'm very interested in the Biblical views of others. My intent isn't to attack anyone's beliefs. I'm seeking understanding.

Popeyesays · Feb 2, 2006

dawny0826 said:
I'm curious. It's been really interesting for me to post here and to encounter people of like faith who interpret the Bible so much differently than I do. I want to learn and understand how others process the Bible.

I'm truly interested for input from those who do not believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God...when you read scripture...like the scripture below, what do you make of it? What is your personal interpretation? What do you think Jesus is saying to us? Do you read this as something literal or figurative?

In this scripture, Jesus is traveling to Jerusalem, and he's asked "Lord, are there few who are saved?"

And this his his reply...

"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you will seek to enter and will nto be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying "Lord, Lord, open for us, and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from." Then you will begin to say, "We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets." But He will say, "I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, and all you workers of iniquity." There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and yourselves thrust out."

Luke 13:24-28 (NKJV)

Edit: Please note, I know I've posted a poll about Bible interpretation...I'm very interested in the Biblical views of others. My intent isn't to attack anyone's beliefs. I'm seeking understanding.

I accept that the Bible - Old and New Testament - are the word of God. And God has protected that word so the books contain truth, but I do not consider the Epistles, or the APocalypse to equal to the Gospel for reliability. The Gospels contain the words and thoughts of Christ - the later books are commentary on those words by individuals who may or may not have had any authority to interpret the original words of Jesus.

Now what is "infallible"? I do not believe that the Bible is all literally true. Much of the truth of the Bible is metaphorical, not literal. The Parables of Jesus, the Creation story, the morality play which is the Book of Job. I also do not believe that the Christian Old Testament is accurate to the Hebrew Book, because none of the Christian Old Testaments are based on the Hebrew text, but rather the septaguint which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew and much maligned by many Hebrew scholars of the 2nd century Before Christ.

The Bible as we know it is founded by a committee - a human committee - one must remember.

Regards,
Scott

Buttercup · Feb 2, 2006

To me, the scripture you quote means that Jesus has encountered people who go to church and profess to be Christians but their faith in him and their spirtuality is show only and not genuine. I think there are people who profess outwardly to be Christian (HItler for one) yet their hearts do not have the tenderness required to truly belong to God.....

Smoke · Feb 2, 2006

The text could mean a lot of things. Am I correct in thinking that to you, it proves the historicity of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

dawny0826 · Feb 2, 2006

MidnightBlue said:
The text could mean a lot of things. Am I correct in thinking that to you, it proves the historicity of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Not exactly.

I interpret this pretty literally.

In terms of salvation...God will cast out those who turn away from Him.

That scripture really places fire under my hind quarters...to get with it...pick up my cross and follow Christ.

What about you?

jeffrey · Feb 3, 2006

Funny, I was just thinking about that exact passage earlier. No I don't take most of the Bible literally. But what Christ taught, yes I do. He taught love and compassion. That passage is about people that that have turned away from Christ as God. That claim to believe, or once did, but no longer do.

Like BC said, they do not have Christ as God in their heart.

Feathers in Hair · Feb 3, 2006

Just to check on this, are you asking for the opinions of Christians/ Abrahamic traditions, or anyone who does not accept the bible as the infallible word?

jewscout · Feb 3, 2006

I accept the TORAH as being a document of Divine origins.

the rest of it.........eh

Green Gaia · Feb 3, 2006

The Bible is one of many important religious texts but I do not consider it unique or exclusive in any way. I do not interpret it literally. I think some parts of it offer more truth and relevance than other parts. Although UUs respect the Bible and regard some of its content as great literature, it is not a central document in our religion.

michel · Feb 3, 2006

Maize said:
The Bible is one of many important religious texts but I do not consider it unique or exclusive in any way. I do not interpret it literally. I think some parts of it offer more truth and relevance than other parts. Although UUs respect the Bible and regard some of its content as great literature, it is not a central document in our religion.

I tend towards looking at the Bible much the same way as you do, Maize.

Dawny, I am no scholar; I had hardly ever looked at the Bible until I came here.
Type "The meaning of Luke 13:24-28" in Google, and see how many hits you get.

That goes to show you how many interpretations (of course some are the same) Real scholars (and I guess a mix of fakes) can make out of a passage. There are so many ways that one can interpret certain passages.

Not long ago, Jay made a comment, in a thread, when I had made a comment about the complexity of the Bible; he said something like "Would you prefer an instruction manual, or something deep, at which you have to work, to understand it ?"

I guess that makes sense; personally, with my intellect, I would rather have a Manual.:biglaugh:

dawny0826 · Feb 3, 2006

FeathersinHair said:
Just to check on this, are you asking for the opinions of Christians/ Abrahamic traditions, or anyone who does not accept the bible as the infallible word?

Sorry about that. I should have specified.

Anyone is really welcome to answer.

dawny0826 · Feb 3, 2006

I'd like to know what individual interpretations of the verse are...for those who don't accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God.

Green Gaia · Feb 3, 2006

dawny0826 said:
I'd like to know what individual interpretations of the verse are...for those who don't accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God.

Sorry, I didn't see this part of your question...

I don't really have an opinion on the verse you quoted, sorry.

dawny0826 · Feb 3, 2006

Maize said:
Sorry, I didn't see this part of your question...

I don't really have an opinion on the verse you quoted, sorry.

Not a problem. I could have done a better job with my op.

sojourner · Feb 3, 2006

Most people who subscribe to "higher" criticism (form, literary, historical,linguistic, etc.) of the Bible have pretty much dismissed its "infallibility." We know that the Bible is a human document, and we theorize that it was written through the lens of the culture and times in which the various writers lived. There is some scholastic debate (the Jesus Seminar, which some consider to be heretical and others embrace as an acclaimed new scholarship) studying the quotations of Jesus in the gospels to determine their authenticity.

Is the Bible inspired by God? Yes. Is the Bible the "infallible Word of God?" I don't think so. Does the Bible reveal God to us through the written testimony and experiences of our forbears? Of course. Is the Bible authoritative for teaching doctrine? Yes, as long as the interpretation is valid.

angellous_evangellous · Feb 3, 2006

sojourner said:
Most people who subscribe to "higher" criticism (form, literary, historical,linguistic, etc.) of the Bible have pretty much dismissed its "infallibility." We know that the Bible is a human document, and we theorize that it was written through the lens of the culture and times in which the various writers lived. There is some scholastic debate (the Jesus Seminar, which some consider to be heretical and others embrace as an acclaimed new scholarship) studying the quotations of Jesus in the gospels to determine their authenticity.

Is the Bible inspired by God? Yes. Is the Bible the "infallible Word of God?" I don't think so. Does the Bible reveal God to us through the written testimony and experiences of our forbears? Of course. Is the Bible authoritative for teaching doctrine? Yes, as long as the interpretation is valid.

From my perspective, people who subscribe to "higher" criticism (form, literary, historical,linguistic, etc.) of the Bible have pretty much dismissed <the question> of its "infallibility." If the Bible is infalliable, then it is exempt from critical study.

We know that the Bible is a human document, and we theorize that it was written through the lens of the culture and times in which the various writers lived.

This is not a theory, but a simple fact. The Bible was written through the through the lens of the culture and times in which the various writers lived. There is no argument that can sustain the opposite.

Master Vigil · Feb 3, 2006

dawny0826 said:
I'm curious. It's been really interesting for me to post here and to encounter people of like faith who interpret the Bible so much differently than I do. I want to learn and understand how others process the Bible.

I view the bible as such...

A piece of mythological literature based upon actual happenings.

Is it infallible? Of course not. Even if a perfect god inspired imperfect men, the outcome would still be imperfect. Unless god made those writers perfect, which I highly doubt.

I'm truly interested for input from those who do not believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God...when you read scripture...like the scripture below, what do you make of it?

I make it out to be a metaphorical analogy to enlightenment. Oneness with god, the divine, tao, whatever you want to call it.

What is your personal interpretation?

That not everyone will achieve enlightenment, even if they think they will.

What do you think Jesus is saying to us?

That he has shown us the path to enlightenment (a long with many others, but I don't think he knew this at the time). And even though many think they are on that path, they may really not be. It is not enough to be in the presence of enlightenment, one must be immersed in it. (This goes for any religion.)

Do you read this as something literal or figurative?

Both. I understand literally what it means by understanding it figuratively.

angellous_evangellous · Feb 3, 2006

Master Vigil said:
I view the bible as such...

A piece of mythological literature based upon actual happenings.

Is it infallible? Of course not. Even if a perfect god inspired imperfect men, the outcome would still be imperfect. Unless god made those writers perfect, which I highly doubt.

I could not have said it better myself.

Smoke · Feb 3, 2006

dawny0826 said:
In terms of salvation...God will cast out those who turn away from Him.

That scripture really places fire under my hind quarters...to get with it...pick up my cross and follow Christ.

What about you?

I don't believe in eternal damnation, and I'm pretty sure I don't believe in salvation the way you do. My faith is pretty this-worldly, without much concern for what happens after death. When Jesus talks about the Realm of God, I don't think about heaven, I think about walking in the Light. So I see this in terms of excluding oneself from the Realm of God in this life.

Popeyesays · Feb 3, 2006

dawny0826 said:
In this scripture, Jesus is traveling to Jerusalem, and he's asked "Lord, are there few who are saved?"

And this is his reply...

"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying "Lord, Lord, open for us, and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from." Then you will begin to say, "We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets." But He will say, "I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, and all you workers of iniquity." There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and yourselves thrust out."

Luke 13:24-28 (NKJV)

The "strait", "narrow gate" is a constant symbol throughout the Gospels. A lot of people don't know that it is another example of metaphor of a physical reality. Jerusalem had a "narrow" gate, as did most of the cities of the region. It was also called the needle's eye, both in scripture and in common parlance. Why did such a gate exist? It was to control taxes and tarrifs on merchandise entering the city for sale. The caravans of camels would have to off-load all their cargo before they could take their camels through the gates, and re-load them on the other side - in the city. This allowed the guards and tax agents to throughly examine all the cargo and tax that which was taxable. The gate was for the collection of custom's duties.

Now given the real nature of the metaphor, which occurs in many places:
"

12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. " Luke

"

Matthew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Matthew 19:23-25 (in Context) Matthew 19 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 10:25
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mark 10:24-26 (in Context) Mark 10 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 18:25
For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:24-26 (in Context) Luke 18 (Whole Chapter)

The symbol to me, means the act of judgement after ending this life. The Qur'an says that every deed and action for good or evil will be weighed to the weight of a single seed of mustard, and the Gospel illuminates how when passing through the gate, our actions in life are judged to the same degree. Judgement is something to regard with some fear, but we should all be assured that just as the justice of God is infinite, so too is His grace and mercy. Very few will enter into the next world on their own merit, but grace and mercy are not to be discounted.

Regards,
Scott

For those who do not accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God...

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