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Was Satan in Eden?

xexon

Destroyer of Worlds
As most believe that we were with God in heaven prior to creation unfolding, it is logical to assume that Satan was there as well. He is the shadow of humanity. He goes where we go.

The whole point of an earthly existance is one of learning. If Satan was not the teacher of evil, how would we know the value of good?

Lesson #1 was in Eden.



x
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Was the serpent a snake? No, it was not. It became a snake after the fact.

And the Lord God said unto the serpent,because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen 3:14

From this verse we can take the fact that before the event the serpent did not move on the ground.

Unlike many who try to make religion as complex and unexplainable as possible,

Are you inferring that taking the Bible as is, is more complex and less explainable than assuming that the first four chapters are psycological. To me that view is far more complicated.

This is a little off from the "holy cow" doctrines of Satan! The snake is in the flesh mind of Eve and Adam! Just a little snake that has become over 6000 years of history a very large Dragon! Think about it! How many people are on the earth?? The mind of man is a very distinct demension! Carl Jung called it the collective conscousness.Other groups call Adam the "Corprate Man". A universal mind in the earth! There is another mind in the earth, the "Mind Of Christ" "Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus"
What a great "advesary"! "You are of your father the devil" Yeshua told the Pharisees.
Spirits can't reproduce!! The devil is Adam!! The evil fallen mind set of man is what we all deal with everyday! Yes Satan,Advesary was in the garden! Do you all see Christ in the mirror? Or do you see the Devil??

Wow. All I can say is that in my Biblical studies I have never seen anything suggesting what you have written about. Could you give me any scriptural evidence for your views?

See Mr. Emu I told you scripture could be used to show Satan wrote the Bible.

I did not see any scripture there :)
 
The point I'm trying to make is that "Satan" is not a proper name! It means "advesary"
only. Not a hollywood "Legend" of a weird character running around in a red suit and tail with horns coming out of his head! "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you" the battle is within you and the "advesary" is also within! The serpent spirit that was in the flesh of Eve tempted her and she Fell for it! Oh yes the Knowledge of good and evil so delishous! One has said knowledge is power! Adam just couldn't let Eve have all the power!LOL! So they fell into the carnal wolrld of death to be in need of a Savior!
The "advesary" is a "dragon" of a force in the earth to bring about a purpose in mankind! God created the "Smith who blows on the coals of fire"! We are to put the advesary under our feet and keep him there! One day he will be bound and I hope very soon!
Peace
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Was the serpent a snake? No, it was not. It became a snake after the fact.
Actually the word serpent has always been used to describe a snake or snakelike thing.

What the passage you quote implies is that the snake once had legs, not that the serpent wasn`t a snake until it lost it`s legs.

It also doesn`t imply that the Serpent was Satan either.

I did not see any scripture there

No but I`ve seen other harmonisations that looked no more valid than that one that didn`t use any scripture either.

Are you inferring that taking the Bible as is, is more complex and less explainable than assuming that the first four chapters are psycological. To me that view is far more complicated.

On this I agree.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually the word serpent has always been used to describe a snake or snakelike thing.

What the passage you quote implies is that the snake once had legs, not that the serpent wasn`t a snake until it lost it`s legs.

It also doesn`t imply that the Serpent was Satan either.

I was thinking of snake as modern day snake(no legs and all). Sorry, if there was a misunderstanding.

No but I`ve seen other harmonisations that looked no more valid than that one that didn`t use any scripture either.

Well you specifically said:

See Mr. Emu I told you scripture could be used to show Satan wrote the Bible.

I was just pointing out that there was no [Biblical] scripture in the post.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
[quoted]
I was just pointing out that there was no [Biblical] scripture in the post.[/quote]


I`m sorry I should have said...

" See Mr. Emu I told you scripture could be "interpreted" to show Satan wrote the Bible."

As I said when I first put the idea forward in another thread only God knows where.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
" See Mr. Emu I told you scripture could be "interpreted" to show Satan wrote the Bible."

Ah ok, you can interpret the Bible to say just about anything. That is why I take the Bible literally, so as not to let a human interfere with God's word :)
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Mister Emu said:
Ah ok, you can interpret the Bible to say just about anything. That is why I take the Bible literally, so as not to let a human interfere with God's word :)


Me Too!

:)
 

Wleeper

Member
Just a couple of points.

1. The Bible says that the serpant was more crafty than the wild animals. It does not say "other" wild animals. That statement mearly says that he was more crafty than the animals; it in no way implies that he was one of them, even though he did take on the apperance of a serpant. This "serpant" was able to speak in a language that Eve could understand. He set himself in opposition to God and sought to entice her to disobey God's commands. Bring me any animal, serpant or otherwise, capable of doing these things and I will listen to your argument.

2. Read Rev 12:9. The author clearly ties the serpant of old, the dragon, the Devil and Satan together in one senentce, clearly showing that in the Bible the terms are used interchangably.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Bring me any animal, serpant or otherwise, capable of doing these things and I will listen to your argument.

Balaams donkey spoke to him when the angel of God stood in his path.

The author clearly ties the serpant of old, the dragon, the Devil and Satan together in one senentce, clearly showing that in the Bible the terms are used interchangably.

In the original Hebrew the angel of God who stood in Balaams path was described as "Satan" yet he was on a direct mission from God and not "The Satan" we think of.

He was Balaams adversary.

This would mean that this term is also interchangable with the "Good Satans" that do Gods work.

However you must remember that the word "Satan" is not once used in Genesis nor is Dragon or Devil.

The Bible says that the serpant was more crafty than the wild animals.

Actually Gen 3:1 says the serpent was "more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. "

The term "Beast of the Field" is used elsewhere in the book to describe cattle or domestic animals.
 
Ge 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent,

Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above

all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon

thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all

the days of thy life:



Snakes/serpents don’t eat dust and dirt.

Snakes/serpent have never eaten dust and dirt.

Snakes eat other animals, insects, and people.

 

Wleeper

Member
This reply is in response to post #30

Numers 22:28 clearly states that the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey placed the words in her mouth. This is not an example of an ordinary animal with the ability to communicate. The Lord used the donkey in a super-natural way just as Satan used the form of the serpant. Further, the Hebrew word translated "angel of the Lord" in Numbers 22 is malak. There is no translation in which this word is ever translated Satan nor is it ever given this meaning in the Hebrew Lexicon. You need to learn the Hebrew before making erroneous statements. Finally, you have not dealt with the scripture in Revelation.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Wleeper said:
This reply is in response to post #30

Numers 22:28 clearly states that the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey placed the words in her mouth.

Not in my translation.
In Numbers 22...

22:28
And the LORD opened the mouth of the ***, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
22:29
And Balaam said unto the ***, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
22:30
And the *** said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ***, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.

Indeed God did open the mouth of the *** (I feel kinda dirty just typing that :) but it would seem to me that the *** spoke of it`s own accord and for itself.
It was apparently quite PO`d that Balaam had been beating it.

However no where in Genesis does it state that Satan or anyone else for that matter opened the mouth of the Snake so all we know is that snakes could talk then.

Who knows... maybe all the centuries of dust eating have destroyed this capability in snakes.

But in your initial inquiry all you asked for was another episode of talking animals ...I gave you one.

Here`s another..
Revelations..

4:8
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
4:9
And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Granted this is to happen in the future but the Bible says its so so it must be so huh?


This is not an example of an ordinary animal with the ability to communicate.

Umm..there is no "ordinary" animal that can communicate in this manner.
Koko isn`t even what I`d consider "ordinary".

The Lord used the donkey in a super-natural way just as Satan used the form of the serpant.

Again, please point out the passages that show Satan making this snake talk.
If you cannot you cannot say with any authority that he did do such a thing.
It`s simply your own addition to the story.

Further, the Hebrew word translated "angel of the Lord" in Numbers 22 is malak. There is no translation in which this word is ever translated Satan nor is it ever given this meaning in the Hebrew Lexicon. You need to learn the Hebrew before making erroneous statements.

I`ve made no erroneous statements.
Perhaps you should read the passages in question again.
I never said that this angel wasn`t called "The Angel of the Lord".
In fact I said he was doing Gods bidding and he was still called Satan.

22:22
And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ***, and his two servants were with him.

The Hebrew word for "adversary" here has been used to describe this angel.
Adversary and Satan are one and the same as far as Hebrew/Greek translations go.
That debunks your statement that these terms can be used interchangably.

Wleeper said:
2. Read Rev 12:9. The author clearly ties the serpant of old, the dragon, the Devil and Satan together in one senentce, clearly showing that in the Bible the terms are used interchangably.

I have many more if this one will not suffice.

Finally, you have not dealt with the scripture in Revelation.

I`ll get to it later.
Right now I have to go watch Edwards debate the anti-christ.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
linwood said:
Finally, you have not dealt with the scripture in Revelation.

Dealing with it now.

Revelation is where Satan is described as a serpent.

Two passages stand out vividly though there are 2 more that obviously describe Satan as a serpent these are the most obvious.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

These quotes never mention any correllation between this serpent and the serpent in Genesis.

It`s also odd that the word "Serpent" is mentioned in the Bible 38 times in 35 verses and in only 4 is it described as Satan/Devil

Rev 12:9 12:14 12:15 20:2

In all 31 other mentionings of the word Serpent the word is used to describe a normal animal in the proper Hebrew context of the word.

The fact is that these Revelation passages never link Satan and original sin.

The 31 other biblical references have no link to Satan whatsoever
The 73 other times the word "Satan" is used never relates to a serpent.

I`m still looking for scripture that shows the Serpent in Genesis is Satan.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
I checked some of my concordances and Satan only appears in Job and Zec. It mostly appears in the New Testament. Some people believe that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan. However, Satan isn't mentioned in Genesis.

I`m sorry Lightkeeper I lost this post in here somewhere until now.

I too have noticed that the vast majority of Satanic reference in the Bible is in the NT.

It`s interesting that much of this is written by authors who were at the time of writing being persecuted by the Jewish priests
 
I tend to think that Satan was able the go into the garden but he was not the serpent.
I think the serpent was one of GOD's creations, but it was used by Satan just as we are.
linwood said:
I just recieved some info from a friend for a little article I`ve been thinking about.

It`s about when and where Satan is mentioned in the Bible.

This info shows that Satan is never mentioned in the story of original sin.

I`m going to go through the data I recieved to doubled check it so I don`t end up looking like an idiot if this info is wrong but I thought some of y`all might be able to make my job easier and point me to some verse that could debunk this data.

It claims the word Satan isn`t even in all of Genesis.

This info says the word Satan in any and all original Biblical languages appears in the Bible only 77 times in 70 verses depending on context since the Hebrew word for Satan and Adversary are the same.

None in Genesis.

Any help here?

I don`t want to post his work without permission so I can`t show it to you until I get it.
 

may

Well-Known Member
Today, many do not believe in Satan the Devil. Yet, he is not merely the principle of evil in humankind, as some believe. Both the Bible and world events show that he is a real person. Furthermore, Satan is diametrically opposed to Jehovah God. Of course, Satan is not equal to God. Since Jehovah is the all-powerful Creator, he is the rightful Ruler over all creation.—Revelation 4:11.




God did not create a wicked creature in opposition to himself. Rather, one of the angelic "sons of God" developed a selfish desire to seize for himself the worship rightfully belonging to Jehovah. (Job 38:7; James 1:14, 15) This desire led him to embark on a course of rebellion against God. By rebelling, this spirit creature made himself Satan (meaning "resister") and Devil (meaning "slanderer")

 
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