icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
1. I would have to amicably disagree. If Christ wanted to impress upon the reader He was only the "ruler" of creation, why didn't He simply utilize the same word He used in Mat 20:25:
" But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers [archon] of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. "The Greek term Christ used for ruler is [archon] which can only mean first in rank or power-chief ruler, magistrate, prince, ruler. If Christ's intention was to impress upon the reader He was only the ruler of creation, He utilized the wrong term. Instead He curiously used the term "arche , which includes the same definition as "archon" but is broader in scope to also mean the very first or original creation.
i would also say that the word "First Created" is not used as well, which would help your cause. What we are basicaly reading is that Jesus is the beginning of creation. So what does that mean? Dont forget that Jesus exactly represents the Fathers very being and that Father is also called the Beginning of Creation, not only that, but the Beginning and End of all things created. So to see Jesus being called the Beginning or the End of all creation would be expected in my opinion.
We need to ask ourselves, How many beginnings are there? 1,2,3... i believe in only one beginning in which the Eternal Word (Jesus)was already there. (Read 1John1:1-5)
2. To my knowledge, the bible nowhere states Christ lived forever in the past. That is a hidden assumption.
1John1:1-5 - The Eternal Word of Life
Col 1:15 - All things created by Jesus
John 1:3 - Not one thing created was created apart from Jesus
3. The Greek word for "firstborn" is "prōtotokos". Strong's tells us it was derived from two words:
"protos" [g4413] which means " foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all)". Interestingly enough, this is where we derive the English word "prototype."
The second term, "tikto", is defined as: to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail. The term can only mean one thing--first created.
The phrase "the firstborn of" occurs over 30 times in the Bible and in every instance the acceptation is the same-- the firstborn is the very first allotment of the group. The "firstborn of the sheep" is a sheep who was born or existed before all the others (Gen 4:4), the "firstborn of the animals" is an animal born or in essence first created before all the others, etc. (Neh.10:36).
First off Birth or to be born is only an earthly event. No where anywhere do we see birth in the heavens or before the heavens. Jewish People called their heir the Firstborn, that is why we see many Girls being born 1st, not get the title of the Firstborn. We also see this as a title as it can be traded and lost to other siblings. We also read that Jesus became Firsrtborn at his Earthly birth (Luke 2:7)(Hebrews 1:5-6)
After reading Hebrews 1:5-6 you will see that Angels were already present when Jesus became the Firstborn son of God and that by use of the words "Today" indicate the world was already created and days existed. The Bible also agrees with this thinking that Jesus being called the Firstborn is heir to God his Father at Matt 28:18 & Rev 1:5 (Ruler of Earth) Col 1:18 also sums it up
4. Christ can not be 100% exactly like the Father. He said so himself:
Joh 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
1St off Jesus could have said the Angels were greater than him at this point... But thats not my point to be made. I Agree that the Father is Greater by being the Father of Jesus. However, that doesnt mean Jesus cannot be exactly like the Father in every way to us their creation. Just as a man and wife are married and the Husband is in a greater roll, they are equall in being Man...
The Father and Son are unified and equal (Joh 10:30;Php 2:6) in all except power, rank, and age (Joh 14:28). BTW...I'm not a JW.
We agree and disagree on some things here. Not a JW, good to know, but you do believe close to them
Questions:
Not equal in age? I assume you believe Jesus is Created. Other than whats above, do you have any more verses to support this?
Not Equal in Power? Are you saying that NOT all Authority is upon Jesus? Explain if possible
In Love,
tom