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God lies in the bible

Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
Me Myself said:
To be honest my OP presuposes he does know. Not knowing would mean he has the potential to be omniscient, but he doesnt want to be. Which is an interesting discussion, though it would divert from the point of the thread.

It is not really about the tension of free will vs omniscience, it is plain directly about God lying (given the suposition of the thread that God is, in fact, omniscient. Like, right now, not just potentially omniscient)
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If you were to believe that God is actively "consciously" omniscient at all times, then yes, what he says in Jonah would have to be, as you put it, a "white lie."
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Pegg said:
I would be questioning the teaching of 'omniscience' over the truthfulness of Gods word. You dont think its possible that it is this man made doctrine which is at fault???
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It would be fun to review the claims of omniscience found in the Torah. ;)
 
Shiranui117

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I'm going to bring in something which helped me greatly in this issue:

Thus, God, because of His justice, mercy and providence for all, desires salvation for all. Inasmuch as it depends on Him, He does not desire the ruin of anything, even the most minute. This is declared by the Son of God Himself in His holy Gospel: Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish (Matt. 18:14). He calls all to Himself. This is why David says, the Lord hath spoken, and called the earth (Psalm 49:1).

From on high, first by the mouths of the prophets, and in the latter days through His Son, the incarnate Word, God called the whole world to salvation. This is why the heavenly Jerusalem, as seen by John in the Apocalypse, had twelve gates. These gates, grouped in threes, face all the ends of the earth so that we would know that God opened paradise for the entire universe. The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth, for He wants all to be saved.

Yet in actuality, this is only a desire which St. John Damascene (in harmony with the entire choir of theologians) calls preliminary. This desire of God, in and of itself, is not sufficient for the salvation of man. It is only like the pillar of fire which showed the way for the Jews in the desert. It shows the way, but does not force one along the way to salvation. God calls. Yet it is necessary that man listen. The will of God is only one wing. A second wing is necessary for flight to the heavens. This is our will. The will of God and the will of man join to form predestination. God desires; if man desires also, then he is already on the road to salvation. . .

"Grace," says the divine Chrysostom (St. John), "though it is grace, yet it saves only those who desire." "Salvation," according to the words of the Theologian (St. Gregory), "must be our work and God's." Rain falls on the ground. Yet the earth does not produce fruit if the husbandman does not labor. The sun shines everywhere. Yet, one who desires to accept its light must open his eyes. This means that God grants all the grace and help, yet the will of man must cooperate with this grace. God desired to save Noah during the flood in which the entire world perished, but He required that he build the ark with his own hands. God wanted to cleanse Nehemiah from leprosy, but He required that Nehemiah himself go and wash in the Jordan. He wants to open the eyes of the one born blind. Yet here again He requires that the blind one wash himself in the pool of Siloam. God desires salvation for all people, but requires that each cooperate in his or her salvation. . .

Now you will tell me: "Me, be found worthy? How is this? God knows ahead of time if I am predestined for paradise or doomed to torment. If I am predestined for paradise, to attain it there is need for no further toil. If I am sentenced to torment, it is completely futile for me to try to escape it. Neither in the first case, nor in the second am I free. The foreknowledge of God is exact; that which God foresees most definitely must happen. If I am free to do that which God does not foresee, then God is mistaken, which is not possible." What are you saying, oh man? You say, "If I am free, then God is mistaken?" But I will argue that if I am not free, then God deceives me. If I am not free then He leads me astray, for by the mouths of the prophets and apostles, even by His very own lips, He calls me to repentance, though He knows very well that I most definitely lack the freedom to repent. If I am not free, He deceives me, for He calls me to take up the cross and follow Him. Yet He has bound up my will. He deceives me, for He orders me to adhere to His commandments; yet with His predestination He deprives me of power. And so, if I am not free, then is not our faith a mistake? Is not the Gospel a joke? No! God does not err, for He is Wisdom Itself. He does not deceive others for he is Truth Itself. You do not understand what divine foreknowledge is and what it accomplishes. So listen. This is definitely a stumbling block upon which many have tripped and fallen. Yet, one who thinks as you do is sorely mistaken and very far from the truth. If you are ill, does not God know whether you will recover or die? But just because of this is it true that you should not call a physician, refuse any medicines, and sit with your hands folded and await either health or death? In such a case you would be very unwise, even foolish. It is one thing that God foresees your healing or death (and this is certainly true). It is completely another thing to assume that God's foreknowledge grants you health or death (and this is certainly false). If you take care of yourself, you will be healed, and in the opposite case you will die. God foresees both cases, yet neither is brought into existence by God's foreknowledge. You will either get better or die. Only one of these two is true, but not determined definitively. Try to understand this more fully. God definitely foresees whether you will be in paradise or in hell. In a mirror we are reflected just as we are in reality. The beautiful are beautiful and the reverse. Likewise in God's pure foreknowledge we appear as we are in actuality, either written in bright letters in the book of life or inscribed in the eternal book of death. If we are righteous, then we are among the ranks of the righteous who are saved. If we are sinners, then we are on the list of condemned sinners. A mirror reflects our appearance. God's foreknowledge reflects our will. This is the view of St. Gregory of Nyssa: "The righteous judgement of God takes into consideration our disposition. He grants to us according to our inner feelings."
A mirror, which reflects both the beautiful and the horrid, does not make them so. Likewise the foreknowledge of God, in which one is predestined for paradise, and another is condemned to torment, in actuality does not force one to salvation and the other to condemnation. "Foreknowledge of God, the Theologian tells us, is intuitive and not active." This means that you are saved or condemned, not because God foresees your salvation or condemnation, but that either by your good works you cooperated with God's grace and God foresees your salvation, or that by your evil deeds you avoid the grace of God and will suffer for it, and God foresees your torment. Thus Judas betrayed Christ not because Christ foresaw his betrayal, but rather Christ foresaw the betrayal of Judas because he intended to betray Christ. Ibis is how the wise Justin, philosopher and martyr speaks about this: "The cause of future events is not foreknowledge, but foreknowledge is the result of future events. The future does not flow forth from foreknowledge, but foreknowledge from the future. It is not Christ who is the cause of the betrayal of Judas. But the betrayal is the cause of the Lord's foreknowledge."

. . .Well, and what if I were to tell you that it was already predestined, that it was already decided that you were either saved or would perish? Is it then possible that because of this you . . . do nothing on your own and simply wait for either salvation or condemnation? In such a case you would be the most foolish person. Take another look in the mirror, would you please. Today you are healthy and the mirror shows your fine appearance. Tomorrow you may be ill, then it will show your sickly appearance. When you are well again, it will again show the first. Just as your face changes its appearance, so the mirror changes your image. Now then, when you live a God-pleasing life, God foresees you in paradise. Tomorrow if you sin, God will foreordain you for torment. You again repent again you are foreordained for salvation. As you change your life, so God changes His decision. God's judgement conforms to our will and conforms to our disposition.

I will finish with two illustrations from Divine Scripture. The blessed Paul, while bound, sailed to Italy on a certain Alexandrian ship in order to stand before the Emperor. Suddenly in the middle of the deep night, a great storm arises. The wind blows strongly, the sea is turbulent. There is great mortal danger, no hope for salvation. Yet God, desiring to preserve His servant, sends him His angel with the message: Fear not, Paul... God hath given thee all them that sail with thee (Acts 27:24). Hearing this divine promise, the sailors were somewhat heartened that they would be saved and intended to leave the vessel and reach shore by boat. No, says Paul, except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved (Acts 27:3 1). What are you saying Paul? Did not God ordain to save all? Does it not matter, if they stay on the ship or not? No, God determined to save them, but requires that they cooperate in this. If everyone does not stay on board and do their job, they perish. Will those perish whom God has destined to be saved? Does God's destination change? Yes, it can be no other way. . .

Here's another example: The King Hezekiah became ill. God destines him to die and sends the prophet Isaiah to say: Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live (II Kings 20: 1). The unfortunate Hezekiah turns his face to the wall, sighs, cries, pleads. What are you doing, oh hapless king?! Has not God appointed you to death? Is it not in vain that you cry and plead? Can one whom God has ordained to die, live? Does God's decision change? Yes, brothers and sisters, this determination also changed! God had pity on the tears of Hezekiah and determined that he live. He even granted him fifteen years of life.(II Kings 20:5,6).
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Source

I found it to be a somewhat new take on the issue, and I feel that it's a good answer.
 
Me Myself

Me Myself

Back to my username
Levite said:
If you were to believe that God is actively "consciously" omniscient at all times, then yes, what he says in Jonah would have to be, as you put it, a "white lie."
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We are in the same page about the OP's dillema and it's resolution then :D
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Maybe some of the Jewish guys on here can comment or verify this:


In Jonah 3:4 God told Jonah to bring the message to Ninevah that in forty days they would be overthrown. The text does not say destroyed, but “overthrown’. I was reading that the word “overthrown” in Jonah 3:4 in Hebrew is “haphak” which does mean overthrown, but also means converted, changed, or to turn about.

If this is the case then God did not lie at all as the message He had Jonah give to the people of Ninevah brought about a complete change and turning of every person in the city away from their wickedness to God. So true to God's word, they were overthrown...converted and changed.


Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” Jonah 3:1-4
 
Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
InChrist said:
Maybe some of the Jewish guys on here can comment or verify this:


In Jonah 3:4 God told Jonah to bring the message to Ninevah that in forty days they would be overthrown. The text does not say destroyed, but “overthrown’. I was reading that the word “overthrown” in Jonah 3:4 in Hebrew is “haphak” which does mean overthrown, but also means converted, changed, or to turn about.

If this is the case then God did not lie at all as the message He had Jonah give to the people of Ninevah brought about a complete change and turning of every person in the city away from their wickedness to God. So true to God's word, they were overthrown...converted and changed.


Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” Jonah 3:1-4
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The verb hafach, which is, in fact, what's used in the text, is an idiom known to be used for complete destruction. In its original context, that is almost certainly how it is intended to be used.

But there are a couple of much later midrashim that play on the double meaning of the word, saying that Jonah expected that Nineveh would be mehapechet (destroyed), and instead Nineveh's sinfulness was mehapechet (overthrown, turned to good): they use the double meaning to teach the lesson that we should not presume, even when we believe we have heard something with clarity from God, that we truly comprehend His plans.

That sort of interpretation is excellent midrash, but it is midrash (exegetical parable)-- it's not the pshat (plain, surface meaning) of the text.
 
Sir Doom

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
Okay, so I read this story a few times and I think I can give commentary now. I am sorry if this particular view has been explored already, but 11 pages is a lot to read. ;)

Anyway, the way I interpret this story is that God does not really tell Jonah specifically what to say, but rather tells him to reveal what has been revealed to him. Prophesy the prophecy is the language I read that made the most sense. Now I am obviously filling in the blanks a bit here, but it seems to me that God has shown Jonah the destruction of Ninevah and told him to go there and tell them what he had been shown. Jonah initially flees this duty leading to the big fish eating him and all of that, and then once God decides not to destroy Ninevah, Jonah even complains to God about this.

Jonah asks God to simply kill him rather than endure the shame of being a prophet whose prophecy did not come true. A liar, essentially. He complains to God for making him into a liar. And God's response is basically, "Is that so bad compared to the salvation of an entire city?"

So, I don't think God exactly lied so much. That is a bit of hair-splitting, but I think considering the results of Jonah's story it really makes sense to think of it as God wanting Jonah to lie as opposed to lying himself.

And my signature applies of course...

EDIT: I wanted to add that Jonah even goes so far as to say that he knew God wasn't going to destroy Ninevah and that this was precisely why he fled his duty initially. That says a lot about the situation, I think.
 
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Pastek

Pastek

Sunni muslim
Me Myself said:
Well, I think God intended to tell the message in that way because he knew that if people simply heard "Ninive will be destroyed in 40 days" they would act on it, and he would spare them when they repented.

He had to know he wouldn´t actually destroy the city for him to be omniscient, though. So he made a white lie, which was still,regardless, a lie.

Now it does should make us wonder: How many more white lies have God made up so that we are afraid and become better persons?
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God always warn people. It just happen that in that story people believed.
I don't see any lie.
 
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