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What are the sources of self-ignorance?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It sometimes seems to me that up to at least half the people you ask a personal question of (e.g. "Do you consider yourself especially good at detecting BS?" "Are you honest with people about what you think of them?" "Are you a good judge of character?" etc...) -- at least half the people will answer with what they wish or think should be the case about themselves, rather than with what is actually the case about themselves.

For instance, if they think they should be a good judge of character, they will tell you they are, even if they are routinely blindsided by others.

I sometimes wonder, if all of that is so, then why is it so? Why do so many of us possess such inaccurate views of ourselves? After all, you might expect the person you knew the best to be you yourself.

I have more than one notion about why we can be so ignorant of ourselves. But one of my notions is this: We mistake our desire to be x with being x. That is, suppose we want very much to be a loving person. When we think of ourselves, that desire to be a loving person somehow gets translated into the thought that we actually are a loving person. And that happens because, when we ask ourselves who we are, we look not at our behavior, but at our desires for our self for an answer.

We would not make the same mistake if we looked at our behavior, rather than at our desires to be this or that sort of person. But to look at our behavior is to look at ourselves in pretty much the same way as we often enough typically look at others. That is, we judge what kind of people they are according to the many clues presented by their words and actions -- their behavior. And we do that, rather than seek to find out what they want to be, and then solely judge them according to what they want to be.

So it seems to me that one source of self-ignorance is to pay too much attention to what one wants to be when considering what one is. But what other sources of self-ignorance are there? If possible, please describe how, precisely, they bring about self-ignorance. And what, if anything, can be done about them.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not sure if there are specific reasons, other than "human nature".

Something like 90% of people believe themselves to be above average drivers, which is itself a hilarious statistic without further elaboration.

Maybe one way to look at it is, from an evolutionary perspective, does the cost of overestimating oneself outweigh possible advantages? Or is overconfidence itself sometimes an advantage? It seems that confidence is itself sometimes useful, whereas under-confidence doesn't seem to offer symmetrical benefits, and an objectively accurate portrayal of one's own abilities (if such a thing were possible), doesn't necessarily seem to offer any strong benefits either. There doesn't seem to be any strong biological or cultural corrective mechanism towards truth here.

Seeing as how so much of life from a variety of species is about competition, the general overconfidence of people doesn't surprise me.

The wikipedia article on this actually provides a number of interesting statistics (including some cross-cultural comparisons or gender differences, like how Americans overestimate their driving ability more than people in Sweden, and how men are more likely to overestimate their IQ and women are more likely to underestimate it) and possible causes of it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority
 

Union jack

Member
I think self-ignorance can occur when we don't have a mirror to reflect ourselves. Vanity may be a reason not to have a mirror, in that we don't want to see a reflection of who we are.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
It sometimes seems to me that up to at least half the people you ask a personal question of (e.g. "Do you consider yourself especially good at detecting BS?" "Are you honest with people about what you think of them?" "Are you a good judge of character?" etc...) -- at least half the people will answer with what they wish or think should be the case about themselves, rather than with what is actually the case about themselves.

For instance, if they think they should be a good judge of character, they will tell you they are, even if they are routinely blindsided by others.

I sometimes wonder, if all of that is so, then why is it so? Why do so many of us possess such inaccurate views of ourselves? After all, you might expect the person you knew the best to be you yourself.

I have more than one notion about why we can be so ignorant of ourselves. But one of my notions is this: We mistake our desire to be x with being x. That is, suppose we want very much to be a loving person. When we think of ourselves, that desire to be a loving person somehow gets translated into the thought that we actually are a loving person. And that happens because, when we ask ourselves who we are, we look not at our behavior, but at our desires for our self for an answer.

We would not make the same mistake if we looked at our behavior, rather than at our desires to be this or that sort of person. But to look at our behavior is to look at ourselves in pretty much the same way as we often enough typically look at others. That is, we judge what kind of people they are according to the many clues presented by their words and actions -- their behavior. And we do that, rather than seek to find out what they want to be, and then solely judge them according to what they want to be.

So it seems to me that one source of self-ignorance is to pay too much attention to what one wants to be when considering what one is. But what other sources of self-ignorance are there? If possible, please describe how, precisely, they bring about self-ignorance. And what, if anything, can be done about them.

I think one of the problems is simple confirmaiton bias and lack of proper measurement "Of course I am a good judge of character, I judge character all the time, and I am always right (according to me, and I am a good judge of character, so there! :D)"

Also because we judge stuff based on opposition and strong black and whiteness "I am not selfish! You are selfish!"

Discardin unoleasant judgements by poisoning the source! almost forgot that one. I learned it when I was little. I saw a kid asking everyone if they liked his drawing. All of them said yes without a thought showed him theirs and he said those were nice too. When he showed me, I honestly looked at it and told him I didnt like it after seeing it a while. Different to everyone else, I actually looked at it instead of just pretend. When I asked if he liked mine, he said "no" with a face pf disgust and turning that second to the person at my side to ask him if he liked his drawing.this must have been when I was eight or less years old. Way less subtle, but this is something I still see to this day.

People just want to hear nice things about themselves, so if someone says something not nice, the problem is pbvusly of that person,"everyone else" said my drawing was nice :rolleyes: ( and for the record, mu drawing WAS way cooler than everyone else's there :p )

Edit: and my typing abilities are just flawless.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I think one of the problems is simple confirmaiton bias and lack of proper measurement "Of course I am a good judge of character, I judge character all the time, and I am always right (according to me, and I am a good judge of character, so there! :D)"

I think to some degree it's also a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I think I'm a lousy judge of character (like I hire someone at work, and they turn out to be rubbish), I'll 'learn from it', and remember next time to hire someone who isn't so loud/quiet/late to the interview or whatever. Only if there are a string of these occurrences would our self-reflection start to kick in.

Discardin unoleasant judgements by poisoning the source! almost forgot that one. I learned it when I was little. I saw a kid asking everyone if they liked his drawing. All of them said yes without a thought showed him theirs and he said those were nice too. When he showed me, I honestly looked at it and told him I didnt like it after seeing it a while. Different to everyone else, I actually looked at it instead of just pretend. When I asked if he liked mine, he said "no" with a face pf disgust and turning that second to the person at my side to ask him if he liked his drawing.this must have been when I was eight or less years old. Way less subtle, but this is something I still see to this day.

This sort of behavioural reinforcement is much more powerful than a parent telling their children to "be nice".

Edit: and my typing abilities are just flawless.

Yup...for a given level of "flawless"...lol

;)
 
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Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Is honest and accurate self knowledge useful any way?

I am old enough to know my obvious weaknesses and few strengths quite well .
And for the most part I no longer care.

I am opinionated.
I am very liberal.
I have a non existent filing system in my brain for names.
I am good at manual, craft and technical skills.
I am at the high end of antisocial ( I don't care to be in large groups of people)
I always do what I say I will do. ( good or bad)
I prefer comfort over fashion.
I take very little on faith ( even religious propositions must be reasonable)
My music tastes are mostly old fashioned and traditional.
I can not stand social costume films of past times. ( don't much care for dramatic films at all)
I can sort out problems as they arise.
I can be very stubborn and dig my heels in to the extent of never giving in once I have made up my mind .
I cover the need for doing chores by a routine that is firm but not totally fixed.
I like to learn new things in an informal way.
I would make a fairly good hermit... provided I could walk freely and talk when the fancy took me.
I am good at budgeting. Both formal Business style, or informal personal ( by the seat of my pants)... My aim is to have what is needed when I fancy something.
I never borrow.

I am not much interested in what other people around me chose to do, such interest is limited to what friends and family would like to share..
I and my children are rarely hoodwinked. ( I told them so many strange but plausible false answers when they were small, that they soon learnt to question what I, or any one told them.)
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think the example in the OP is about self-ignorance, I think this is about posturing and survival instincts. It's about an animal refusing to admit weakness to a potential rival or enemy like any animal would. It's not that they're ignorant of their weaknesses, it's that they don't want to show that to others. After all, what animal wants to be taken advantage of by its kin by so readily showing its hand is poor?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that the greatest act of self-ignorance, and the one that happens to most of us without even considering, is the complete identification with the 'story' going on in our heads. Simply put, we are not the same thing as our thoughts, feelings and emotions. If we can look at something and see it as an "object" it is not us. The fact that we are aware of our thoughts, emotions and typical psychological thinking processes, tells us that these are not us. We are whatever is looking at these thought processes.

That is why the monks of the Early Church who fled to the Egyptian desert in the third century AD taught:

Abba Poemen said to Abba Joseph, “Tell me how to become a monk.” He said, “If you want to find rest here below, and hereafter, in all circumstances say, Who am I? and do not judge anyone.
 
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Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
I don't think the example in the OP is about self-ignorance, I think this is about posturing and survival instincts. It's about an animal refusing to admit weakness to a potential rival or enemy like any animal would. It's not that they're ignorant of their weaknesses, it's that they don't want to show that to others. After all, what animal wants to be taken advantage of by its kin by so readily showing its hand is poor?

I disagree with this. So very often people really DO believe their own hype. As in Penumbra's post, most of those drivers really believe that they are good at driving. The GOPer Really thinks he has the facts on his side. The racist really believes the KKK propaganda that is biologically incorrect is the real truth, and liberal "scientists" are just trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes....and on and on.

For some things its their teachers, be they racist parents, Fox News, or what have you. But for the more internal observations (and failures at such), :shrug: I believe Sunstone and Me Myself are onto something. People really like to think they are good, and doing the right thing. :shrug:
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
It's not that I don't think Sunstone has a point, it's that I think it's overlooking other important factors like the one I pointed out. It makes no sense to ignore the social dynamics associated with how people convey their skills and abilities to others, because that is a huge, HUGE part of how any social animal operates. There is a need to maintain certain appearances, conform to certain norms, or convey certain social statuses. In other words, it isn't necessarily about the person having an inaccurate view of themselves, but that people will change the face or mask they present to others based on the social dynamics of a given situation.

Again, I'm not suggesting people have an entirely accurate self-assessment of their abilities, but I can't in good judgement ignore the confounding factor of social dynamics. I'm not going to sit here and claim that most self-assessments conveyed to others are the product of self-ignorance when there are other highly probable explanations.
 
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