Reincarnation

Seyorni said:

Without time "always" is meaningless.
When you bring in entities you're descending deep into maya, into an individual, subjective realities.

Reality comes in layers, with different degrees of "realness." 2nd state consciousness (dream state/ REM sleep) is one, subjective reality. It's not as real as 3rd state (waking state) which, in turn is less real than 5th state.
The goal of Hinduism is expansion of consciousness through different levels to a Universal Consciousness, to oneness with Brahman. In 7th state there is no prakriti, no soul and certainly no God (s/he disappears way down the line).

Click to expand...

There is more to Hinduism than the advaitic view. I, for one cannot speak in quite so 'I''m sure' style because I haven't attained that level of awareness.

Okay I think I understand it more. So let me summarize to make sure I got it. Karma determines where one goes after death ( some believe that can be to another human,animal,time,space , or any combo of those) prakiti is the cause of all the "stuff" that makes up the universe (gravity,matter,energy,if its not the soul or god its from prakiti) there are LOTS of souls(parts of THE soul) so there is ne'er a shortage of souls to fill the bodies.

lemaster13 said:

Karma determines where one goes after death

Click to expand...

This is partially true, yet many also believe they (I mean the soul, not the individual I'ness of this lifetime) would have some choice, given their knowledge of the process. Some will purposely stay attached to families or places etc. For example, a person who is in touch with this element may actually go looking during any particular lifetime for a place or around people that would be conducive to spiritual growth in the next, then try to drop the existing physical body there.

Vinayaka said:

This is partially true, yet many also believe they (I mean the soul, not the individual I'ness of this lifetime) would have some choice, given their knowledge of the process. Some will purposely stay attached to families or places etc. For example, a person who is in touch with this element may actually go looking during any particular lifetime for a place or around people that would be conducive to spiritual growth in the next, then try to drop the existing physical body there.

Click to expand...

Oh so choosing to return in a particular form you find conductive to your spiritual journey. I see. See the Hindus in Bali(I had a research project on Them recently) believe that they reincarnate back into their family. So each new child is actually an ancestor reborn.

lemaster13 said:

Karma determines where one goes after death (

Click to expand...

not only karma but his/her state when a person die together decide fate.

Seyorni said:

Without time "always" is meaningless.
When you bring in entities you're descending deep into maya, into an individual, subjective realities.

Reality comes in layers, with different degrees of "realness." 2nd state consciousness (dream state/ REM sleep) is one, subjective reality. It's not as real as 3rd state (waking state) which, in turn is less real than 5th state.
The goal of Hinduism is expansion of consciousness through different levels to a Universal Consciousness, to oneness with Brahman. In 7th state there is no prakriti, no soul and certainly no God (s/he disappears way down the line).

Click to expand...

Hi
Where is the concept of levels from?

lemaster13 said:

Karma determines where one goes after death ( ....
some believe that can be to another human,animal,time,space , or any combo of those) prakiti is the cause of all the "stuff" that makes up the universe (gravity,matter,energy,if its not the soul or god its from prakiti) there are LOTS of souls(parts of THE soul) so there is ne'er a shortage of souls to fill the bodies.

Click to expand...

First I do not understand the idea of "Shortage of souls, too many souls" I find that supposed idea as a non-topic.

Now back to "Karma".

First, I want to cry and pull my hair out! "some believe this" "some believe that".

Bhagavad-gita 2.29
Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all.

Click to expand...

We are all re-stating what we read.

If karma and the next birth is the topic, I would find the verse in the Gita that defines it more or less and then go from there.

Bhagavad-gita 14.14
When one dies in the mode of goodness, he attains to the pure higher planets of the great sages.
http://vedabase.net/bg/14/14/


Bhagavad-gita 14.15
When one dies in the mode of passion, he takes birth among those engaged in fruitive activities; and when one dies in the mode of ignorance, he takes birth in the animal kingdom.

Here is the Purport to this verse by Bhaktivedanta Swami (a Krishnite vaishnava):

Some people have the impression that when the soul reaches the platform of human life it never goes down again. This is incorrect. According to this verse, if one develops the mode of ignorance, after his death he is degraded to an animal form of life. From there one has to again elevate himself, by an evolutionary process, to come again to the human form of life. Therefore, those who are actually serious about human life should take to the mode of goodness and in good association transcend the modes and become situated in Krishna consciousness. This is the aim of human life. Otherwise, there is no guarantee that the human being will again attain to the human status.

http://vedabase.net/bg/14/15/en

Click to expand...

Vinayaka said:

There is more to Hinduism than the advaitic view. I, for one cannot speak in quite so 'I''m sure' style because I haven't attained that level of awareness.

Click to expand...

Quite so. Few Hindus are intellectuals. Few are concerned with metaphysics. Hindus are like everyone else. They believe what their eyes see and what seems reasonable. Relativity and Quantum mechanics are alien and absurd concepts.

Onkara said:

Hi
Where is the concept of levels from?

Click to expand...

Levels are the essence of the Eastern religions. It's what they're all about. I suppose they came from reports of those who experienced expanded consciousness/enlightenment/cosmic consciousness...whatever.

People "wake" to expanded consciousness all the time, for all sorts of, or no, reasons. Some drugs seem to trigger it. Left temporal lobe seizures seem to trigger it. It occurs across all times and cultures. Huxley dubbed this awakening Philosophia Perennis, or perennial philosophy.

Can you picture a tesseract in your mind? If not, you're in 3rd state or below.

Our world is an abstract cobbled together in our brains from very limited sensory input. We can only see a tiny sliver of the elecromagnetic spectrum. We can only see three dimensions. We can only experience one time at a time, and are stuck advancing at a set rate (arrow of time). We can only be in one place at a time.
This is why the Eastern faiths compare our perception to a dream. Our experience of the world is a Plato's cave.

The truth of the matter is that no one knows what happens after our hearts stop beating. Maybe we go to a paradise in the sky, maybe we are reborn or maybe nothing happens. What we have to go on here are what our hearts and minds tell us and what thousands of years of ancient wisdom tell us. Translation: nothing concrete.

As for the animal thing. If reincarnaion is real (and I think a form of it is true, but can't know for sure) one can assume some evolve into higher beings while others fall into lower beings. Causing an imbalance. There is no evidence for this, but it is an idea.

Actually, Cartoonist Nina Paley (who did the film Sita Sings the Blues) did a comic strip about the subject. I think it's pretty funny and clever on the whole "more people" case. Even if it is satirical.

http://www.ninapaley.com/Book/images/B+W_960pixels/NA_SheepReincarnation_1994_960pixels.png

StarryNightshade said:

The truth of the matter is that no one knows what happens after our hearts stop beating. Maybe we go to a paradise in the sky, maybe we are reborn or maybe nothing happens. What we have to go on here are what our hearts and minds tell us and what thousands of years of ancient wisdom tell us. Translation: nothing concrete.

As for the animal thing. If reincarnaion is real (and I think a form of it is true, but can't know for sure) one can assume some evolve into higher beings while others fall into lower beings. Causing an imbalance. There is no evidence for this, but it is an idea.

Actually, Cartoonist Nina Paley (who did the film Sita Sings the Blues) did a comic strip about the subject. I think it's pretty funny and clever on the whole "more people" case. Even if it is satirical.

http://www.ninapaley.com/Book/images/B+W_960pixels/NA_SheepReincarnation_1994_960pixels.png

Click to expand...

I literally LoLed that was hilarious. And yet oddly enough explained the idea to me...weird huh? The people that that reincarnation can't exist because of a large amount of humans don't understand just how many "souls" there are. Also for each physical thing to exist there are innumerable amount of other physical living things that will die. Even the vegetation kills plants and microorganisms.

Starynight I couldn't agree more. I can't remember where I saw this but I read something that said "Man will never know what happened before time until they are with 'him' and maybe even he does not know. (The idea of God not knowing, now THERE'S a scary thought.) Now of course we are talking about what happens after death not what happened before life but the quote will work the same.