Ethics of the Ten Plagues of Egypt

Jayhawker Soule · May 10, 2013

Levite said:
Also, the slavery of Israel was different than other ancient slavery, both because the entire people Israel were enslaved, and it was not at all usual that a whole nation faced slavery, and that they were all ill-treated and subject to capricious genocide, which was also very unusual at that time.

You pretend to know something that you simply do not know and for which you have little or no historical proof.

Blackdog22 · May 10, 2013

Jayhawker Soule said:
It's a story.

You know, I wonder why God didn't just put at the beginning of every story, that could easily be mistaken for being literal, that "This story begins..." With his omnipotence and all you would think those 3 words would of been added to make his book somewhat clear.

The thing about this story is, Jews exist, Egypt exists, the characters in the story were real people, this is apparently what started the great walk that led to the 10 commandments.

No where in any of this is their any indication this is just a story. How exactly did the 10 commandments come about? Im assuming that was part of the story or does the bible rapidly go from fact to fiction in such a way as to make no logical sense?

Blackdog22 · May 10, 2013

Pegg said:
the people are the ones who give support to such leaders, they give them the power to make decisions for them. The leader made some bad decisions and the people suffered. Thats the nature of handing over the power to one person. His decisions will have an effect on you.

So yes, it was perfectly ethical for God to bring the plagues on the egyptions. They supported the Pharoh and allowed him to make the decisions. If they didnt like his decisions, they should have stood up and said so.

Here's your freewill, but if you use it ill plague you? What?

Wu Wei · May 10, 2013

Levite said:
I choose to accept these presumptions. Other Jews are free to make their own decisions. And it doesn't really matter at all to Jewish tradition what non-Jews choose to believe, since their religions and philosophies are their business and not ours, and vice versa.

I am not Jewish and here we agree completely

Pegg · May 10, 2013

Blackdog22 said:
Here's your freewill, but if you use it ill plague you? What?

God never said there would not be consequences to misusing free will

He was very honest about the consequences of misuse of freewill.

Jayhawker Soule · May 11, 2013

Blackdog22 said:
The thing about this story is, ....

This should be good!

Blackdog22 said:
Jews exist,

Great point.

Blackdog22 said:
Egypt exists, ...

Brilliant!

Blackdog22 said:
the characters in the story were real people, ...

Huh?

Blackdog22 said:
this is apparently what started the great walk that led to the 10 commandments.

Good grief ... :facepalm:

Jayhawker Soule · May 11, 2013

Pegg said:
the people are the ones who give support to such leaders, they give them the power to make decisions for them. The leader made some bad decisions and the people suffered. Thats the nature of handing over the power to one person. His decisions will have an effect on you.

So yes, it was perfectly ethical for God to bring the plagues on the egyptions. They supported the Pharoh and allowed him to make the decisions. If they didnt like his decisions, they should have stood up and said so.

Moses said, "So said the Lord, At the dividing point of the night, I will go out into the midst of Egypt,

and every firstborn in the land of Egypt will die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne to the firstborn of the slave woman who is behind the millstones, and every firstborn animal.

And there will be a great cry throughout the entire land of Egypt, such as there never has been and such as there shall never be again.

Yep. The firstborn of the slaves should have picked a better Egyptian leader, and those firstborn animals were pretty culpable as well.

Gjallarhorn · May 11, 2013

Blackdog22 said:
You know, I wonder why God didn't just put at the beginning of every story, that could easily be mistaken for being literal, that "This story begins..." With his omnipotence and all you would think those 3 words would of been added to make his book somewhat clear.

The thing about this story is, Jews exist, Egypt exists, the characters in the story were real people, this is apparently what started the great walk that led to the 10 commandments.

No where in any of this is their any indication this is just a story. How exactly did the 10 commandments come about? Im assuming that was part of the story or does the bible rapidly go from fact to fiction in such a way as to make no logical sense?

Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can...

9-10ths_Penguin · May 11, 2013

Jayhawker Soule said:
It's a story.

And stories have meaning.

Revoltingest · May 11, 2013

Gjallarhorn said:
Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can...

Hmmm.....You mad me realize that the trinity of Spiderman / Peter Parker / spider DNA is a greater prophet than those of all other religions. (Note: Buddha almost measures up, but he lacks the web slinging & the spandex suit.) His moral example shines more brightly.

Caladan · May 11, 2013

Dan4reason said:
I am wondering what your views on the ethics of the Ten Plagues of Egypt. Is it right for God to take it out on the Egyptian people for the stubbornness of their leader?

It might have made sense in a time in which regional powers like Egypt could erase entire cities and societies and be integrated into a narrative that shows a higher power that brings such civilizations on their knees in order to free the oppressed.
I don't think there is any meaningful way for us to relate to an Iron Age narrative that might have made sense in the Near East many centuries ago by applying our modern, democratic, and politically correct mindset.

Dan4reason · May 12, 2013

Thief said:
Ok...let's try God's point of view....
Really....yes you can.

The creature you've made has a short life span.
With precious time and not a clue.....
Man is that creature that will dominate all things...including his fellow man.

That part about domination was intended for the art of learning how this physical reality operates.
It wasn't supposed to be used upon your brothers.

But there you go.....
Time and time again Man takes off on the wrong foot and you have to sort through the mess.

Over and over again....thousands must die....just to stop a bad trend from spreading.

What's so hard to believe about that?

So how did killing the first born stop a bad trend exactly?

BruceDLimber · May 12, 2013

Dan4reason said:
I am wondering what your views on the ethics of the Ten Plagues of Egypt. Is it right for God to take it out on the Egyptian people for the stubbornness of their leader?

Before you go presuming this, you should pause to realize that--as already demonstrated on at least one television documentary--the events in the scriptural account were in fact ALL PERFECTLY NATURAL EVENTS; and whether you ascribe to the scriptural interpretations of them or not, the sequence of these events is already quite straightforward to explain if you simply refer to the scientific evidence.

Peace,

Bruce

Dan4reason · May 12, 2013

BruceDLimber said:
Before you go presuming this, you should pause to realize that--as already demonstrated on at least one television documentary--the events in the scriptural account were in fact ALL PERFECTLY NATURAL EVENTS; and whether you ascribe to the scriptural interpretations of them or not, the sequence of these events is already quite straightforward to explain if you simply refer to the scientific evidence.

Peace,

Bruce

So in other words, God had nothing to do with these events?

Dan4reason · May 12, 2013

rusra02 said:
Actually, the first three plagues affected the Israelites as well as the Egyptians. Later, those Egyptians that feared Jehovah were spared the effects of some of the plagues, including the final one. (Exodus 9:20,21) Jehovah held the entire nation of Egypt responsible for the mistreatment and enslavement of his people. This principle of community responsibility resulted in suffering of the entire nation. Jehovah was entirely just and righteous in judging that nation. (Deuteronomy 32:4,5)

I don't believe in community responsibility. One big reason for this is that no community will ever have complete consensus over anything. Because of this, it is unjust to punish the people who are disagreeing with the enslavement of the Israelites.

AmbiguousGuy · May 12, 2013

Dan4reason said:
I don't believe in community responsibility. One big reason for this is that no community will ever have complete consensus over anything. Because of this, it is unjust to punish the people who are disagreeing with the enslavement of the Israelites.

Not only that, but agreement isn't usually a Yes/No business. An Egyptian might reluctantly agree to take in a slave girl until she can find her family and get back to her country. Meanwhile, the slave would work for her room and board. Maybe later the Egyptian begins to think, in the privacy of his own thoughts, that he may not release the girl even if she finds her family. Maybe, maybe not. He's just not sure. His wife is deathly ill and the slave girl is the only one who can care for her.

It's not like everyone just checks a FOR SLAVERY or AGAINST SLAVERY box.

So it's complicated. I'm glad I'm not God. I'd have a heckuva time figuring out whose head to drop a frog onto and whose not.

Dan4reason · May 12, 2013

Pegg said:
the people are the ones who give support to such leaders, they give them the power to make decisions for them. The leader made some bad decisions and the people suffered. Thats the nature of handing over the power to one person. His decisions will have an effect on you.

So yes, it was perfectly ethical for God to bring the plagues on the egyptions. They supported the Pharoh and allowed him to make the decisions. If they didnt like his decisions, they should have stood up and said so.

So you are willing to say that 100% of Egyptians, 5 million people supported Pharaoh's actions?

Caladan · May 12, 2013

If the allies were willing to level German cities in order to defeat the Third Reich, it's not surprising that the scribes chose the method of collective punishment in a society which enabled the oppression of their people, at least according to narrative. After thousands of years we are not that different in our struggle for victory or freedom from the writers of the Bible.

Jayhawker Soule · May 12, 2013

9-10ths_Penguin said:
And stories have meaning.

Great point - wholly irrelevant, but great.

Pegg · May 13, 2013

Dan4reason said:
So you are willing to say that 100% of Egyptians, 5 million people supported Pharaoh's actions?

supporting his actions is not the issue

the issue is that 5 million people supported the 'system' which allowed the Pharoah to call the shots.

Human rulership is supported by mankind. Likewise today, very person who casts a vote supports human rulership.

Ethics of the Ten Plagues of Egypt

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