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Religiously Jewish, but Culturally Atheist?

K

kassault37

Member

I have a question that I would love someone to give a reasonable answer to. These days we hear about so many people caliming to be very proud of their Jewish heritage, and they consider themselves culturally Jewish, yet they are atheist, do not practice the Judaism in any way, and do not believe in God whatsoever. While I can understand why one person wants to have a sense of belonging, I cannot comprehend how you can say you’re culturally Jewish and atheist at the same time, when the Jews, even as a culture, where a group of people under God, one God, one Nation. The origins of which are in the Old Testament in the Pentateuch, which means that it makes absolutely no sense to claim to be Jewish and atheist at the same time, even if you say you’re culturally Jewish, that very same culture originates with the belief in God and religious practice.
 
F0uad

F0uad

Well-Known Member
This is because the ethnicity and religious identities are mixed it prevents religious mocking in many ways.
 
Caladan

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
kassault37 said:

I have a question that I would love someone to give a reasonable answer to. These days we hear about so many people caliming to be very proud of their Jewish heritage, and they consider themselves culturally Jewish, yet they are atheist, do not practice the Judaism in any way, and do not believe in God whatsoever. While I can understand why one person wants to have a sense of belonging, I cannot comprehend how you can say you’re culturally Jewish and atheist at the same time, when the Jews, even as a culture, where a group of people under God, one God, one Nation. The origins of which are in the Old Testament in the Pentateuch, which means that it makes absolutely no sense to claim to be Jewish and atheist at the same time, even if you say you’re culturally Jewish, that very same culture originates with the belief in God and religious practice.
Click to expand...
You are a bit confused. The origin of the Jewish people is not in their religion, Judaism is the native faith of a nation. Just like Native Americans have their own traditions, or much like many Japanese may hold no supernatural beliefs but still revere Shintoism or Buddhism.
Judaism encompasses many traditions which played a part in thousands of years of Jewish history, it's not hard to explain why many Jews who are secular in their beliefs still celebrate these traditions, or have affinity to the Hebrew Bible, much in the same way that a modern Greek might feel about the Iliad or the Odyssey or about Greek philosophy.
 
K

kassault37

Member
I see your point but you still mentioned that Judaism is the native faith of a nation. That's my point, if it's the FAITH of a nation, that mean that the nation exists and only could be Jewish if religiously. However, many Jews not only scrutinize religion but actually HATE religious Jews. You speak to many Israelis and they feel that way. My point is, the are only Jewish because of the JEWISH RELIGION. For instance and Arab Atheist does not claim to be a Muslim, he says he is Arab! A person from the ancient nation of the Israelites should not call him or herself Jewish if they are atheist, but either an Israelite or a Hebrew, or something that is not so closely connected to the religion, that's the point I am trying to make. It really does not make sense!

Caladan said:
You are a bit confused. The origin of the Jewish people is not in their religion, Judaism is the native faith of a nation. Just like Native Americans have their own traditions, or much like many Japanese may hold no supernatural beliefs but still revere Shintoism or Buddhism.
Judaism encompasses many traditions which played a part in thousands of years of Jewish history, it's not hard to explain why many Jews who are secular in their beliefs still celebrate these traditions, or have affinity to the Hebrew Bible, much in the same way that a modern Greek might feel about the Iliad or the Odyssey or about Greek philosophy.
Click to expand...
 
Caladan

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
kassault37 said:
I see your point but you still mentioned that Judaism is the native faith of a nation. That's my point, if it's the FAITH of a nation, that mean that the nation exists and only could be Jewish if religiously.
Click to expand...
That is a very narrow minded opinion. Are you telling me that Native Americans who hold no supernatural beliefs cannot celebrate or preserve their traditions?
The Jewish tradition holds richness which cannot be measured: Literature, festivities, history and folklore. Are you telling me that Icelanders need to sacrifice maidens to Odin in order to teach their children the Edda?

However, many Jews not only scrutinize religion but actually HATE religious Jews. You speak to many Israelis and they feel that way.
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Really? how many Israelis have you discussed this issue with? I live in Israel, and I consider myself an atheist. And while there are many secular people here, the vast majority of them if not all of them still celebrate Jewish holidays and are attached to their heritage on many levels.

My point is, the are only Jewish because of the JEWISH RELIGION.
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Wrong again. You ignored my point in my previous post. Judaism is only one layer of a historical nation. It is a faith of the Jewish people, one aspect of a culture and a nation. The Jews are not called Jews after the name of their religion, their religion- Judaism is named after their tribal lineage.

For instance and Arab Atheist does not claim to be a Muslim, he says he is Arab!
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That is because there is no place for atheists in Muslim society, Jewish society on the other hand is more pluralistic. We seek to preserve our heritage, but at the same time do not wish to cling to empty superstition.

A person from the ancient nation of the Israelites should not call him or herself Jewish if they are atheist, but either an Israelite or a Hebrew, or something that is not so closely connected to the religion, that's the point I am trying to make. It really does not make sense!
Click to expand...
Again, the word Jew, comes from the tribe of Judah and the Kingdom of Judah. A historical kingdom and a nation. Historically, Israel is the entire confederation of the twelve tribes, the tribe of Judah being the prominent of them.
 
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Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
The problem with the juxtapositioning of race and religion is that a valid criticism of a belief can be twisted into an accusation of racial prejudice.
 
K

kassault37

Member
Almost every Israeli I've met hate Orthodox Jews, they say that they have too many children and don't server in the army, do nothing for the country and all they do is collect welfare and pray all the time. So calm down and stop spasing out at me!

Secondly, you mentioned Native Americans, they refer to themselves either as natives, Indians, or by their tribe names, not their damn ancient religion! Why are you missing the point and calling me names!

Again all the stuff you mention, the tribes of Israel, the tribe of Judah, these are all the products of a nation under god, that dates back to Abraham and Moses. Half of what you say only makes sense to you. I don't know why Jewish people go insane with the name calling and putting people down, any time you question something either about their religion or culture, when there is just as much to criticize about Judaism as there is about Islam and Christianity.


Caladan said:
That is a very narrow minded opinion. Are you telling me that Native Americans who hold no supernatural beliefs cannot celebrate or preserve their traditions?
The Jewish tradition holds richness which cannot be measured: Literature, festivities, history and folklore. Are you telling me that Icelanders need to sacrifice maidens to Odin in order to teach their children the Edda?


Really? how many Israelis have you discussed this issue with? I live in Israel, and I consider myself an atheist. And while there are many secular people here, the vast majority of them if not all of them still celebrate Jewish holidays and are attached to their heritage on many levels.


Wrong again. You ignored my point in my previous post. Judaism is only one layer of a historical nation. It is a faith of the Jewish people, one aspect of a culture and a nation. The Jews are not called Jews after the name of their religion, their religion- Judaism is named after their tribal lineage.


That is because there is no place for atheists in Muslim society, Jewish society on the other hand is more pluralistic. We seek to preserve our heritage, but at the same time do not wish to cling to empty superstition.


Again, the word Jew, comes from the tribe of Judah and the Kingdom of Judah. A historical kingdom and a nation. Historically, Israel is the entire confederation of the twelve tribes, the tribe of Judah being the prominent of them.
Click to expand...
 
Caladan

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
When you pull yourself together and cease the histeria and actually read my posts you might begin to see your own narrow mindedness. But I wouldn't count on it. But since I don't feel like arguing with members who cant carry a debate without having a childish temper tantrum, I'll leave you with this: Your ignorance is already displayed in the title you chose for your thread. We consider ourselves culturally Jewish, and religiously Atheist, NOT the other way around.
 
K

kassault37

Member
Well that depends, for instance there are Ethiopian Jews and there are Russian Jews. If you looked at them would you say they are ethnically the same? Unless you're completely blind you can see that they look nothing alike. But if you look at two ethnic Chinese people, one being a Muslim and one being Buddhist, you see that they both look "Chinese", because that's a fact. The same goes about Jews, if they are one nation that does not follow a single law of what it means to be Jewish, then don't refer to yourself as Jewish, it makes no sense. If you want to be grouped as a nation, then you can very well say we are the descendants of the tribes of Israel. Even then it makes no sense because many people converted to Judaism in Russia, only to have their descendants become atheists and still refer to themselves as Jewish. Do you see my point? that's like me converting to Mormonism to fit in with people in Utah and then consider myself a Mormon as a cultural thing while living in Salt Lake City, and then one day I decide that I've had enough and I become an atheist, yet still refer to myself as a Mormon. But Oh No, don’t ever say that to a Jewish person, you’ll be labeled with all kinds of names and called an anti-Semite or just plain stupid for asking a legitimate question!

fantôme profane;3303552 said:
So what should an atheist who is of Jewish descent say when asked about their ethnicity?
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K

kassault37

Member
Hate to break it to you but you're the one who started the "childish" name calling, I just asked a simple question, and answered whatever you asked or pointed out. You just don't like what I'm saying, that's the problem, so instead you continue to call me names. Very nice, thank you for NOT answering the question and just attacking me instead.

Caladan said:
When you pull yourself together and cease the histeria and actually read my posts you might begin to see your own narrow mindedness. But I wouldn't count on it. But since I don't feel like arguing with members who cant carry a debate without having a childish temper tantrum, I'll leave you with this: Your ignorance is already displayed in the title you chose for your thread. We consider ourselves culturally Jewish, and religiously Atheist, NOT the other way around.
Click to expand...
 
I

Ibraahiym

Member
kassault37 said:
I have a question that I would love someone to give a reasonable answer to. These days we hear about so many people caliming to be very proud of their Jewish heritage, and they consider themselves culturally Jewish, yet they are atheist, do not practice the Judaism in any way, and do not believe in God whatsoever. While I can understand why one person wants to have a sense of belonging, I cannot comprehend how you can say you’re culturally Jewish and atheist at the same time, when the Jews, even as a culture, where a group of people under God, one God, one Nation. The origins of which are in the Old Testament in the Pentateuch, which means that it makes absolutely no sense to claim to be Jewish and atheist at the same time, even if you say you’re culturally Jewish, that very same culture originates with the belief in God and religious practice.
Click to expand...

With a little research you will find their no such wotd as Jew , Meaning ..

The point that Jew is not synonymous to Israelite or Yahuwdiy - arabic - as you have been led to believe . First you must know that the letter '' J '' did not exist in English , Latin or Greek until 1565 A.D. The modern English '' J '' , was created by Peter Galatin in the year 1565 A.D. Before that , the letter '' G '' took the place of the letter '' J '' so the word '' Jew '' which was created in 1514 A.D. was spelled '' Gew '' and was short for Greeks . There was no '' J '' sound so there could not have been a word '' Jew '' as the Euro - Jews try to make you believe .

The Torah never spoke of these Euro-Jews . The Euro -Jews took the name Judah , who was the fourth son of Yaqov , Ya'aqub , Jacob ( Israel ) , and made up a new nationality . They took the first part of the title Judah and cut off the last pronuciation '' Ju -dah '' and then labeled themselves '' Jews '' or '' Jewish '' , Judahites , Jew is not a Hebrew word ! Their language is Yiddish ( a dialect which is a mixture of German and Heebrew ) . not Hebrew .

The word Jew did not exist until 1514 A.D. When you see it in the Koran you are being deceived . When you see it in the Holy Bible you are being deceived . Find out what the word Jew means in the Scriptures . In most cases it refers to Yehudaw , Yahudah , Judah . They call themselves Jews because they didn't have a place in the 12 tribes of Israel , so they call themselves Jews , Jewish and they speak Yiddish . These Eiro-Jews are trying to authenticate their existence by tying in to the peoples and cultures that actually existed , such as the Tribe of Judah . And books referring to the past saying Jew or Jewish , Know that was not the word that was there .

The Euro-Jews of today are descendants of the Canaanites as they are the decendants of Jebus
, the third son of Kena'an , Kana'an , Canaan . The word Jebusite means '' dryness '' ,

Genesis 10 ; 16 -17 , Revealed In The Year 1512 B.C.E. Where It States ; And The ( Jebusite ) , And The Amorite , And The Girgasite .Verse 17 And The ( Hivite ) , And The Arkite , And The Simite . < King James Version ( Hebrew -Greek ) Key Word Study Bible >

The Jebusites first ruled the Hurriantribe ( the Hivites ) and they joined together during the Jebusite reign . According to the Holy Bible , Jebusites inhabited Jerusalem , rhen were displaced by the incoming Israelites , who were leaving from their bondage in Mitsrayim , Misraayim , Mizraim ( Egypt ) . The Jebusites mixed with the Israelites from Egypt . This took place during the year 100 B.C.E. Today they are called Jews ( Occupying Jerusalem and living in America , Germany , Poland , Hungary , Romania , Australia , Bulgaria , and Yugoslavia .

Again I mean no disrespect .
 
Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
kassault37 said:
I have a question that I would love someone to give a reasonable answer to. These days we hear about so many people caliming to be very proud of their Jewish heritage, and they consider themselves culturally Jewish, yet they are atheist, do not practice the Judaism in any way, and do not believe in God whatsoever. While I can understand why one person wants to have a sense of belonging, I cannot comprehend how you can say you’re culturally Jewish and atheist at the same time, when the Jews, even as a culture, where a group of people under God, one God, one Nation. The origins of which are in the Old Testament in the Pentateuch, which means that it makes absolutely no sense to claim to be Jewish and atheist at the same time, even if you say you’re culturally Jewish, that very same culture originates with the belief in God and religious practice.
Click to expand...

I admit, I often don't understand the reasoning of individuals who proudly claim atheism, yet also proudly claim Jewish identity. But regardless of my feelings, the law is clear: if a person is born to a Jewish mother, or was properly converted according to Jewish Law, they are Jewish regardless of what they say, what they do, what they believe. Opinions may change at whim, but identity does not.

It helps to remember that Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity: it combines elements of religion, of culture/ethnicity, and of national identity. Though overall none of the elements are extricable from one another, a Jewish person can legitimately publicly embrace whatever element seems most appealing to them, and not be in the wrong.

Ibraahiym said:
With a little research you will find their no such wotd as Jew , Meaning ..

The point that Jew is not synonymous to Israelite or Yahuwdiy - arabic - as you have been led to believe . First you must know that the letter '' J '' did not exist in English , Latin or Greek until 1565 A.D. The modern English '' J '' , was created by Peter Galatin in the year 1565 A.D. Before that , the letter '' G '' took the place of the letter '' J '' so the word '' Jew '' which was created in 1514 A.D. was spelled '' Gew '' and was short for Greeks . There was no '' J '' sound so there could not have been a word '' Jew '' as the Euro - Jews try to make you believe .

The Torah never spoke of these Euro-Jews . The Euro -Jews took the name Judah , who was the fourth son of Yaqov , Ya'aqub , Jacob ( Israel ) , and made up a new nationality . They took the first part of the title Judah and cut off the last pronuciation '' Ju -dah '' and then labeled themselves '' Jews '' or '' Jewish '' , Judahites , Jew is not a Hebrew word ! Their language is Yiddish ( a dialect which is a mixture of German and Heebrew ) . not Hebrew .

The word Jew did not exist until 1514 A.D. When you see it in the Koran you are being deceived . When you see it in the Holy Bible you are being deceived . Find out what the word Jew means in the Scriptures . In most cases it refers to Yehudaw , Yahudah , Judah . They call themselves Jews because they didn't have a place in the 12 tribes of Israel , so they call themselves Jews , Jewish and they speak Yiddish . These Eiro-Jews are trying to authenticate their existence by tying in to the peoples and cultures that actually existed , such as the Tribe of Judah . And books referring to the past saying Jew or Jewish , Know that was not the word that was there .

The Euro-Jews of today are descendants of the Canaanites as they are the decendants of Jebus
, the third son of Kena'an , Kana'an , Canaan . The word Jebusite means '' dryness '' ,

Genesis 10 ; 16 -17 , Revealed In The Year 1512 B.C.E. Where It States ; And The ( Jebusite ) , And The Amorite , And The Girgasite .Verse 17 And The ( Hivite ) , And The Arkite , And The Simite . < King James Version ( Hebrew -Greek ) Key Word Study Bible >

The Jebusites first ruled the Hurriantribe ( the Hivites ) and they joined together during the Jebusite reign . According to the Holy Bible , Jebusites inhabited Jerusalem , rhen were displaced by the incoming Israelites , who were leaving from their bondage in Mitsrayim , Misraayim , Mizraim ( Egypt ) . The Jebusites mixed with the Israelites from Egypt . This took place during the year 100 B.C.E. Today they are called Jews ( Occupying Jerusalem and living in America , Germany , Poland , Hungary , Romania , Australia , Bulgaria , and Yugoslavia .

Again I mean no disrespect .
Click to expand...

Since you indicate that you mean no disrespect, I will assume that your repetition of this absolutely incorrect and slanderous information comes not from malice but from ignorance.

The misinformation that you have presented above represents a series of classic anti-Semitic canards, trotted out as libels or passed around as malicious folktales by Jew-haters for centuries. The form you present them in was largely shaped by nineteenth-century anti-Semitic pseudo-scholarship, largely in Britain, France, Germany, and Russia; but many of the various falsehoods comprising the whole date back much farther, for example the implication that Ashkenazim (Jews of Middle and Eastern European communities) are not really Jews because they speak Yiddish, has been around in various forms almost since the inception of Yiddish, in around the 14th or 15th century.

It is all utter bilgewash, nothing in it has even a shred of reliability. Any decent history of the Jewish People can give you the actual facts of how and when Jews migrated from the Middle East to Europe, and how the communities of Middle and Eastern Europe diverged in certain customs and in daily speech from Jews of Middle Eastern lands, as well as how they came to be called Jews-- which, by the way, predates the 1500s by quite a while, and was never spelled with a G, but prior to the standardization of the J, with an I, as it was in Latin (Iudaes), and has, for the love of God, nothing in the world to do with Greece or Greeks!

I recommend H.H. Ben-Sasson's A History of the Jewish People, if you would like to know the facts of Jewish history. Although even Wikipedia could've provided you better information than this. I have no idea where you learned such stuff, but please be assured that it bears no resemblance to reality, and is extraordinarily offensive, to boot.
 
K

kassault37

Member
Thank you so much for your answer, which, unlike Caladan, actually answered the question rather than insult me for making a legitimate inquiry!

Levite said:
I admit, I often don't understand the reasoning of individuals who proudly claim atheism, yet also proudly claim Jewish identity. But regardless of my feelings, the law is clear: if a person is born to a Jewish mother, or was properly converted according to Jewish Law, they are Jewish regardless of what they say, what they do, what they believe. Opinions may change at whim, but identity does not.

It helps to remember that Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity: it combines elements of religion, of culture/ethnicity, and of national identity. Though overall none of the elements are extricable from one another, a Jewish person can legitimately publicly embrace whatever element seems most appealing to them, and not be in the wrong.



Since you indicate that you mean no disrespect, I will assume that your repetition of this absolutely incorrect and slanderous information comes not from malice but from ignorance.

The misinformation that you have presented above represents a series of classic anti-Semitic canards, trotted out as libels or passed around as malicious folktales by Jew-haters for centuries. The form you present them in was largely shaped by nineteenth-century anti-Semitic pseudo-scholarship, largely in Britain, France, Germany, and Russia; but many of the various falsehoods comprising the whole date back much farther, for example the implication that Ashkenazim (Jews of Middle and Eastern European communities) are not really Jews because they speak Yiddish, has been around in various forms almost since the inception of Yiddish, in around the 14th or 15th century.

It is all utter bilgewash, nothing in it has even a shred of reliability. Any decent history of the Jewish People can give you the actual facts of how and when Jews migrated from the Middle East to Europe, and how the communities of Middle and Eastern Europe diverged in certain customs and in daily speech from Jews of Middle Eastern lands, as well as how they came to be called Jews-- which, by the way, predates the 1500s by quite a while, and was never spelled with a G, but prior to the standardization of the J, with an I, as it was in Latin (Iudaes), and has, for the love of God, nothing in the world to do with Greece or Greeks!

I recommend H.H. Ben-Sasson's A History of the Jewish People, if you would like to know the facts of Jewish history. Although even Wikipedia could've provided you better information than this. I have no idea where you learned such stuff, but please be assured that it bears no resemblance to reality, and is extraordinarily offensive, to boot.
Click to expand...
 
Caladan

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
kassault37 said:
Thank you so much for your answer, which, unlike Caladan, actually answered the question rather than insult me for making a legitimate inquiry!
Click to expand...
There is no inquiry here, you have simply decided that it is not logical for secular Jews to hold on to their heritage or even refer to themselves as Jews. Fortunately most Jews disagree with you, in fact most Jews in Israel regardless of their degree of religiosity consider themselves to be Jews.
Your over dramatic description of the hate secular Jews feel for the Haredi (what I assume you referred to as Orthodox) comes from deep ignorance, including ignoring the fact that Haredi Jews are a minority in Israeli society, most religious and traditional Jews in Israel are not Haredi/Ultra Orthodox and they do serve in the military and take an active role in society. So instead of telling an Israeli Jewish member what Jews really think or should think take the time to actually address my points instead of having a heart attack.
 
Caladan

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Levite said:
I admit, I often don't understand the reasoning of individuals who proudly claim atheism, yet also proudly claim Jewish identity. But regardless of my feelings, the law is clear: if a person is born to a Jewish mother, or was properly converted according to Jewish Law, they are Jewish regardless of what they say, what they do, what they believe. Opinions may change at whim, but identity does not.
Click to expand...
I admit that I was going to address your post and explain why Jews preserve, celebrate, and study their heritage regardless of supernatural beliefs, but I already presented a few explanations and parallel examples here which I assume you must have read. Instead I will say that it is simply disappointing to see an educated Rabbi unable to think of reasons why Jews would see benefit in preservation and recognition of Jewish heritage. Can you really not think of a single reason why people who hold no supernatural beliefs still revere their heritage? then I guess there's nothing left other than complete assimilation. It's sad that supposedly our sole justification for having some sense of preservation is whether we believe in God or not. To me it always was to believe in ourselves and our people.
Many of the great movers of Jewish society in modern times were secular Jews, they simply had a more pragmatic look at Jewish history and Peoplehood. Some of them paved the way for the establishment of modern Israel.
 
Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
kassault37 said:
Thank you so much for your answer, which, unlike Caladan, actually answered the question rather than insult me for making a legitimate inquiry!
Click to expand...

Frankly, I just gave you the same answer that Caladan did, only from a religious rather than a secular perspective. But what he originally said is perfectly valid.

Caladan said:
I admit that I was going to address your post and explain why Jews preserve, celebrate, and study their heritage regardless of supernatural beliefs, but I already presented a few explanations and parallel examples here which I assume you must have read. Instead I will say that it is simply disappointing to see an educated Rabbi unable to think of reasons why Jews would see benefit in preservation and recognition of Jewish heritage. Can you really not think of a single reason why people who hold no supernatural beliefs still revere their heritage? then I guess there's nothing left other than complete assimilation. It's sad that supposedly our sole justification for having some sense of preservation is whether we believe in God or not. To me it always was to believe in ourselves and our people.
Many of the great movers of Jewish society in modern times were secular Jews, they simply had a more pragmatic look at Jewish history and Peoplehood. Some of them paved the way for the establishment of modern Israel.
Click to expand...

I am not going engage in an intra-Jewish debate about this on this thread-- it is the wrong place to do so. But if you want to discuss it elsewhere, I will.
 
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