Is the Bible Changed, Altered, or Crooked?

Pegg said:

the distinction is made in the translation, and rightly so, because Paul certainly didnt believe the gods of the nations were real. When people carve gods our of wood and stone, they are certainly confused when they pray to them and make offerings to them...i would certainly call that confused. :yes:

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Well....this goes back to a few subjects including the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 32:8, which clearly indicates that the nations of the world each have their own "son of god" ruling over them, while Israel is the choice of THE god. What do you think of the "Rudiments" which some translations write out as "Elemental Spiritual Forces", they are clearly talking about actual spiritual beings, powerful and evil ones. Paul most certainly believed that Satan existed, as "The god of this age", so why are the other "many gods and many lords" now non-existent?

Colossians 2:8

New International Version (©2011)
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Colossians 2:20

New International Version (©2011)
Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:

Galatians 4:3

New International Version (©2011)
So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world.


Also, there is a major Semantic issue which is often abused, as to the issue of "believing in" these other "gods", as opposed to "believing in and acknowledging their existence" which is much different than "having" other gods. If I said "I believe in Satan", the context is like "I believe in Dark Matter". The only god I "Believe in" in terms of who I acknowledge as "my god", the "god of Shermana", is the god of Israel, the "god of the gods".

Surely the Psalmists believed in these "gods" whom the "god of the gods" is god over.

It has also been said, and this concept was discussed in the NT Apocrypha as well such as the Apocryphal Acts so it thus had currency among many Christian groups, that idols housed the spirits of demons and such "fallen gods" and there was in fact something to the worship of these idols, even if the statues themselves were motionless and had no power, they were conduits to the power of the unholy arts through the agency of these evil "gods".

Shermana said:

Well....this goes back to a few subjects including the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 32:8, which clearly indicates that the nations of the world each have their own "son of god" ruling over them, while Israel is the choice of THE god. What do you think of the "Rudiments" which some translations write out as "Elemental Spiritual Forces", they are clearly talking about actual spiritual beings, powerful and evil ones. Paul most certainly believed that Satan existed, as "The god of this age", so why are the other "many gods and many lords" now non-existent?

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I 100% believe that, yes of course. The demons, and Satan, have set themselves up as rulers over the world of mankind and no doubt they inspire the many false gods existing on the earth. But this doesnt make them worthy of worship...and I think that is the point Paul is making when he says the 'so-called' gods. They are 'so-called' because people have them into gods to be worshiped. But demons do not deserve worship and will eventually all be destroyed anyway....so them and their false religions will soon be gone anyway. Paul was a worshiper of Yahweh/Jehovah...all other gods would have been 'so-called' in his eyes.

Shermana said:

Also, there is a major Semantic issue which is often abused, as to the issue of "believing in" these other "gods", as opposed to "believing in and acknowledging their existence" which is much different than "having" other gods. If I said "I believe in Satan", the context is like "I believe in Dark Matter". The only god I "Believe in" in terms of who I acknowledge as "my god", the "god of Shermana", is the god of Israel, the "god of the gods".

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i agree again. I can acknowledge the existence of these other gods without worshiping them. Just acknowledging them does not make one 'polytheistic' as some might suggest. Abraham knew of and believed in other gods because his own father had a collection of them in the household....but Abraham only gave his worship to Yahweh/Jehovah.

Shermana said:

Surely the Psalmists believed in these "gods" whom the "god of the gods" is god over.

It has also been said, and this concept was discussed in the NT Apocrypha as well such as the Apocryphal Acts so it thus had currency among many Christian groups, that idols housed the spirits of demons and such "fallen gods" and there was in fact something to the worship of these idols, even if the statues themselves were motionless and had no power, they were conduits to the power of the unholy arts through the agency of these evil "gods".

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yes again, which is why God condemned the making of idols and images... the demons are being given a pathway by such things. But they are still only 'so-called' gods because the idols/icons/images are lifeless as the Pslamist says;

“A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; eyes they have, but they cannot see; ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; they utter no sound with their throat. Those making them will become just like them.” Ps. 115:3-8; Isa. 44:14-20.

muizz99 said:

Quran is the FINAL REVELATION OF GOD. .

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It seems that Quran Promises that the Books of God will never end, and God will always gives us His guidance:

"And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom." Luqman 31:27

(so the word of God is not exhausted by sending Quran or Bible...)

If there is no corruption, there might be NO QURAN in this world. And god sent a prophet.

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What Quran says is that, the Christians and Jews Misinterpreted their Book. You know Quran came nearly 600 years after Jesus. You mean God left them without a proper Book for 600 years?

And thats Muhammad, the final messenger of God

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I think Quran says Messengers will come:

"Oh children of Adam! Messengers will surely come to you from among your own, and they will relate My revelations to you. Then, those who refrain from evil and mend their ways shall have nothing to fear; nor shall they (ever) grieve (or be sorry)!" al-A`raf 7:35

Shermana said:

Angels are in fact called gods.

You think Satan is a mere idol? He is in fact called "The god of this age". He is the one vested with power over the unrighteous.

Also, the word "so-called" is not in the text, it's added by certain translations who aren't comfortable with the truth that there are in fact "many gods and many lords".

The problem boils down to a widespread misunderstanding of what "god" means. There is only one CHIEF god, there is only one "god of the gods", that's why the word "god" is often articulated to become "The god", which also corrolates to the word "Allah" which is "The god".

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So, why did god created them? Is god, the creation?

Odion said:

According to you.


Why would God do that?

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Its because, they are misguided and an enemy to God. They deceived they'r own selves and God increased they misguideness.

Pegg said:

do you see that the word 'god' is not always used in reference to the Only True God?

Do you at least understand that the term is not a personal 'name' for the Creator?

And finally, satan the devil is called a god. Is he an idol??? i dont think so. I think he is a real individual, a living entity. And he is called the god of this world. And then there are also the many gods created by people which are also idols, yes. They are idols because they are not real living entities, but they are still gods to some people.

But lastly, Jehovahs Witnesses worship only the one True God of the bible. His personal name in the bible is Yahweh in Hebrew, or Jehovah in english.

Exodus 3:13 Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?....15 Then God said once more to Moses:
“This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite

This is the The True God, the creator of heaven and earth, and this is the God we worship. Unlike other christians, we dont worship Jesus or the holy spirit as if they are gods to be worshiped, nor do we believe God is a trinity. I dont know where Shiranu gets that idea from, perhaps he's confused.

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Well, you might dont know the difference between LORD and God?

InvestigateTruth said:

It seems that Quran Promises that the Books of God will never end, and God will always gives us His guidance:

"And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom." Luqman 31:27

(so the word of God is not exhausted by sending Quran or Bible...)






What Quran says is that, the Christians and Jews Misinterpreted their Book. You know Quran came nearly 600 years after Jesus. You mean God left them without a proper Book for 600 years?



I think Quran says Messengers will come:

"Oh children of Adam! Messengers will surely come to you from among your own, and they will relate My revelations to you. Then, those who refrain from evil and mend their ways shall have nothing to fear; nor shall they (ever) grieve (or be sorry)!" al-A`raf 7:35

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Exactly. But, muhammad is considered as the last prophet and quran is the final revelation of god which means, the end. Unless, they corrupted the quran and another religion will created.

muizz99 said:

Exactly. But, muhammad is considered as the last prophet

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Yes, Muhammad is considered the Last Prophet by Muslims, but in my view this is a misunderstanding. there is no basis in Quran for this belief

and quran is the final revelation of god which means,

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I think this is misunderstanding. There is no verse in Quran that says, Quran is the Final Revelation.

the end.

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I would say the decision is with God.

Unless, they corrupted the quran and another religion will created.

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The reason that another revelation would come is not because of Corruption, but also misunderstandings of the Book, and also because when a New Age comes, God reveales New Teachings, an New Book which is suitable for the new Age.
It's like if you are in grade one, you are given grade 1 Book. Once you go to the grade Two, you are given a New Book. So, Now we live in a New Age, and God, who is our Creator gives a New Book with more Advanced teachings.

"...Every age hath its Book of revelation..."Quran ar-Ra`d 13:38

muizz99 said:

So, why did god created them? Is god, the creation?

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The reason of WHY God would create the angels and powers in Heaven is entirely subjective and not indicated in the text, reasons can range from wanting a series of servants and assistants to wanting a sort of spiritual entity to live among Him in the Heavens to wanting an interesting epic story in Heaven to simply unfolding a blueprint of how to create the Universe utilizing . It's rather irrelevant however to the fact that they do in fact exist and have power and agency (though are beneath Him and are subject to Him, unless they rebel like the Nephilim and Satan though they are still beneath and subject to Him even then) and are not just "so-called" godlike beings.

THE God is not created, the lesser "gods" are. Though some Panentheists hold to the view that all beings are manifestations of God, and thus God himself is the Creation.

muizz99 said:

Then Paul corrupted and changed the bible. Brighter than the sun.

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I wouldn't say that Paul corrupted the bible as much as he corrupted the doctrine of Yeshu.

muizz99 said:

Exactly. But, muhammad is considered as the last prophet and quran is the final revelation of god which means, the end. Unless, they corrupted the quran and another religion will created.

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I was surprised to hear you say you were only 13. You're handling yourself well. Whether or not Holy Books have been altered or corrupted is tough to deal with. People within the same religion blame others in the same religion for adding words, mistranslating words or taking things too literal or not literal enough. As you probably can see. People are corrupted. Do some people have selfish motives? Yes. Do good people get fooled by sharp talking charismatic leaders? Yes.

Be wise and be smart. There are good people in all religions and a lot of people in a lot of religions that talk as if people in the other religions are all wrong, or confused, or blinded, or being misled. Unfortunately, in many religions it forces its people to believe that way. They say that since we have the real truth, their truth must be a lie. It is easy to find plenty of bad examples of people behaving badly in the other religions but is that the real truth? I would not doubt that the real truth of any religion is that most of the people are mere followers. You're obviously more than that.

Be careful not to hate or pre-judge others in the different religions too much. I don't think anybody can be above not doing it a little but look for those good people in the other religions. Loving God and loving others is a part of most religions, but it's probably the hardest thing to do. But, to do anything less I think is the start of the corruption of one's religion and ignoring those verses is the start of the corruption of the Holy Books.

muizz99 said:

Its because, they are misguided and an enemy to God. They deceived they'r own selves and God increased they misguideness.

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And why would He do that?

I would say it was inspired.

Titanic13 said:

I would say it was inspired.

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Fair enough.

But I believe it's been changed. I think it may have started out pure, and there might still be some truth in it, but as it is written (as they say):

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll." (Rev 22:18-19)

there are/will be those who would add to or take away from Holy writings.

I think it has happened.

First, I don't trust any English translation of the Bible. I taught myself Greek and Hebrew years ago in order to read it in it's original languages. Of course, that's back when I was a Christian, and since I'm not anymore, my Greek and Hebrew have become rusty.

Now, onto the verse in question. The Hebrew says "bar-elohim". Bar, of course, means son of, and elohim is the plural of eloah. This would normally indicate "gods", but elohim is used quite a bit in the Hebrew Bible for the one god. Does it in this case? Who knows. But remember, it's not a monotheist talking, it's a Babylonian polytheist making the comment, so the proper context, to me, would suggest that the proper translation would be "son of the gods". But I could be wrong on that.

EDIT: A few other things to remember: this is a part of Daniel that was written in Aramaic, although all we have are Hebrew translations, particularly from the Masoretic text. But something else to keep in mind about the word "eloah", is that it referred also to pagan gods. Which seems to back up my particular rendition of the text.

Shermana said:

I wouldn't say that Paul corrupted the bible as much as he corrupted the doctrine of Yeshu.

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I have never seen any evidence of either.

InvestigateTruth said:

Yes, Muhammad is considered the Last Prophet by Muslims, but in my view this is a misunderstanding. there is no basis in Quran for this belief


I think this is misunderstanding. There is no verse in Quran that says, Quran is the Final Revelation.



I would say the decision is with God.




The reason that another revelation would come is not because of Corruption, but also misunderstandings of the Book, and also because when a New Age comes, God reveales New Teachings, an New Book which is suitable for the new Age.
It's like if you are in grade one, you are given grade 1 Book. Once you go to the grade Two, you are given a New Book. So, Now we live in a New Age, and God, who is our Creator gives a New Book with more Advanced teachings.

"...Every age hath its Book of revelation..."Quran ar-Ra`d 13:38

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I wouldn't characterize the Baha'l'ullah as a prophet. I believe him to be an Illuninati, ie a person who has a greater understanding of spiritual things and comparable to a Bhoddavista. That would put him in the category of Luther and Calvin.

muizz99 said:

there are 99 names of god (i.e. The most compassionate, the most merciful) .

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I believe that is just the Islamic list of names. I would add Jesus to it.

Muffled said:

*edit*

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I have never seen any evidence of either.

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Or could it be that you have allowed your faith to blind you to objective reality? Because the evidence supporting the idea that Paul corrupted the teachings of Jesus, and added his own doctrines, is pretty clear.