Messiah or Nation of Israel

mormonman · Jan 25, 2006

Deut 13:1 said:
"It is better to be thought a fool, then open your mouth and remove all doubt."

I don't know who said it, but you should definetly look into it.

Abraham Lincoln I do believe. Can you tell me that the Hebrew Bible that you have is perfect and w/o any errors or changes?

sushannah · Jan 25, 2006

mormonman said:
Abraham Lincoln I do believe. Can you tell me that the Hebrew Bible that you have is perfect and w/o any errors or changes?

I believe the Torah is divine. The Torah was given to the nation of Israel as a whole. If it was given to just one individual I would be suspicous, but it was given to the whole nation. That a lot of eyewitnesses! I believe that the Torah is perfect and intact, G-d gave this to mankind to live by, G-d would not allow it to become distorted or incorrect. If this would happen, then why would G-d give it in the first place.

Buttercup · Jan 25, 2006

I guess I have a question that I don't think has been addressed in this section....

Don't the Jews believe there will be a messiah someday? If so, show me the passages in Torah that give reference to him. I am curious.

Quiddity · Jan 25, 2006

Deut 13:1 said:
Did Isaiah write Zarchiah and Ezekial? No. Let's stick w/ how Isaiah uses avdi.

Cross referencing to other text is what helps to understand. How was my comparison invalid?

Deut 13:1 said:
In hebrew, you can refer to a group of people in 3rd person singular. Hebrew is grammatticaly VERY different then English. For starters there are only 4 tenses. Present, Past, Future, and command. In english there are a billion. I struggled to understand the, "I shall have wanted to have done ...ect.."

Since I don't speak or write Hebrew, it would be wise for me to search or ask someone who does.
Raphael Patai, Ph.D. - Jewish Biblical scholar and Cultural Anthropologist
In his book Gates to the Old City says, in regards to the suffering servant of Isaiah 42, 49, 50, 52, 53, Patai writes:
"The Aggada, the Talmudic legend, unhesitatingly identifies him with the Messiah, and understands especially the descriptions of his sufferings as referring to Messiah ben Joseph."

And as I read the details of this man I can't help but see Christ, but I can understand you can't help but not see him...

Take another look:
He is,
1) Despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief

2) Stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted

3) Wounded

4) Bruised

5) Chastised

6) Oppressed

7) Afflicted

8) By oppression and judgment he was taken away

9) Stricken for the transgression of my people

10) It was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief

11) He poured out his soul to death

Peace in Christ,
~Victor

Deut 13:1 · Jan 25, 2006

mormonman said:
Abraham Lincoln I do believe. Can you tell me that the Hebrew Bible that you have is perfect and w/o any errors or changes?

From our perspective, yes. From yours, I don't know what you think.

Deut 13:1 · Jan 25, 2006

Buttercup said:
I guess I have a question that I don't think has been addressed in this section....

Don't the Jews believe there will be a messiah someday? If so, show me the passages in Torah that give reference to him. I am curious.

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp

Buttercup · Jan 25, 2006

Ahhhhh, thank you Deut 13:1. I will have to read thru and get back to this thread.

Deut 13:1 · Jan 25, 2006

Victor said:
Cross referencing to other text is what helps to understand. How was my comparison invalid?

The word Good, Tov, appears tons of times. Do you think they are all used in the same way?

Victor said:
Since I don't speak or write Hebrew, it would be wise for me to search or ask someone who does.

Excellent move. I'll give you frubals for that comment right there after I finish my response even though what you cited is pretty dumb, IMO.

Victor said:
Raphael Patai, Ph.D. - Jewish Biblical scholar and Cultural Anthropologist

Victor said:
In his book Gates to the Old City says, in regards to the suffering servant of Isaiah 42, 49, 50, 52, 53, Patai writes:
"The Aggada, the Talmudic legend, unhesitatingly identifies him with the Messiah, and understands especially the descriptions of his sufferings as referring to Messiah ben Joseph."

That's just a plain lie. Read Isaiah 42,49,50,52. They all identify the person of who the servant is. In case you skimmed my post, I'll quote a section of it.

Isaiah 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

-----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
Isaiah 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name; I surnamed you, yet you have not known Me
-----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
Isaiah 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen.
-----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
Isaiah 44:2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
-----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
Isaiah 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.
-----Okay, so Israel is the avdi, my servant.
Isaiah 41:8. But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me.

Notice how in EVERY one of those examples, the servant is not Moshiach?

Victor said:
And as I read the details of this man I can't help but see Christ, but I can understand you can't help but not see him... Take another look:

And we will have to continue to disagree. I can't get past the glaring mistranslations. Your number 9, has already been addressed, and so have several other of your points. For the 10th time, here. READ IT.

מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.

53:8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

At the end of that line is the world Lamo, which means them, the word Lo means him. So it can't be talking about a single person. So if you send a letter to the people who translate Isaiah 53, I actually would be interested in their response.

Again, you can continue to read it w/ the imagination that the word is Lo, the rest of us, will continue to dwelve in reality where the word is Lamo. The next line down you run into another grammatical problem about claiming it was one person. As I said, there at one point was a disagreement about what the passage meant. That disagreement ended long before Mr. J was even born.

Quiddity · Jan 25, 2006

Deut 13:1 said:
The word Good, Tov, appears tons of times. Do you think they are all used in the same way?

I would say no, but what do I know. I don't speak Hebrew.

Deut 13:1 said:
Excellent move. I'll give you frubals for that comment right there after I finish my response even though what you cited is pretty dumb, IMO.

Deut, I'm trying to go to proper sources and this guy reads, writes, and understands everything that encompasses Judaism. But yet you still called it dumb.....ok. Do a search on him and you will find that many Rabbis think highly of him. Who else am I supposed to go to?

Deut 13:1 said:
That's just a plain lie. Read Isaiah 42,49,50,52. They all identify the person of who the servant is. In case you skimmed my post, I'll quote a section of it.

Fair enough. But my questions of Isaiah 53 still stand. It seems rather unique to me with the words it uses. Why not insert the word Israel in Isaiah 53 when the author had JUST DONE IT in 52? Why is there a soul attached? Why is the servant an innocent and guiltless sufferer?

Deut 13:1 said:
Notice how in EVERY one of those examples, the servant is not Moshiach?

I'm gonna have to take you word for it, above that of a Jewish Biblical Scholar and Cultural anthoropologist. As I said, I don't speak or write Hebrew so I'm left to trusting those who understand all the ins and outs of the context. What else can I do?

Deut 13:1 said:
and so have several other of your points.

Where?

Deut 13:1 said:
For the 10th time, here. READ IT.

10th time?

Dude I read it and both clearly show the distinction from a man and His people. Once it says his generation who shall tell? mine reads and as for his generation. The distinction is right there.

Deut 13:1 said:
Again, you can continue to read it w/ the imagination that the word is Lo, the rest of us, will continue to dwelve in reality where the word is Lamo. The next line down you run into another grammatical problem about claiming it was one person. As I said, there at one point was a disagreement about what the passage meant. That disagreement ended long before Mr. J was even born.

Don't be jerk Deut. I'm not imagining anything. Even a person that holds no bias on the matter can see what I'm saying. And the fact that there was disagreement at all should tell you that it's a difficult passage even for you guys. So lay off the imagination crap.

michel · Jan 25, 2006

From : - http://www.chaim.org/nation.htm

Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah

Please see the article itself fot 8 reasons that have helped comre to this conclusion:-

So what can we conclude? Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, nor to Isaiah, nor to Moses, nor another prophet. And if not to Moses, certainly not to any lesser man. Yet Messiah would be greater than Moses. As the rabbinic writing "Yalkut" said: "Who art thou, O great mountain? (Zech. iv.7) This refers to the King Messiah. And why does he call him`the great mountain?' because he is greater than the patriarchs, as it is said, `My servant shall be high, and lifted up, and lofty exceedingly' --he will be higher than Abraham...lifted up above Moses...loftier then the ministering angels..." (Quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, page 9.)

Of whom does Isaiah speak? He speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded. The second verse of Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear. The figure grows up as "a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground." The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere. The Davidic dynasty was to be cut down in judgement like a felled tree, but it was promised to Israel that a new sprout would shoot up from the stump. The Messiah was to be that sprout. Several Hebrew words were used to refer to this undeniably Messianic image. All the terms are related in meaning and connected in the Messianic texts where they were used. Isaiah 11, which virtually all rabbis agreed refers to the Messiah, used the words "shoot" (hoter) and branch (netser) to describe the Messianic King. Isaiah 11:10 called Messiah the "Root (shoresh) of Jesse," Jesse being David's father. Isaiah 53 described the suffering servant as a root (shoresh) from dry ground, using the very same metaphor and the very same word as Isaiah 11. We also see other terms used for the same concept, such as branch (tsemach) in Jeremiah 23:5, in Isaiah 4:2 and also in the startling prophecies of Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12.

Beyond doubt, Isaiah 52:13-53:12 refers to Messiah Jesus. He is the one highly exalted before whom kings shut their mouths. Messiah is the shoot who sprung up from the fallen Davidic dynasty. He became the King of Kings. He provided the ultimate atonement.

Isaiah 52:13 states that it would be the Messiah who will "sprinkle" many nations. What does that mean? What was Messiah's ministry to be toward the nations? The word translated "sprinkle" or sometimes "startle" is found several other places in the OT. The Hebrew word is found in Leviticus 4:6; 8:11; 14:7, and Numbers 8:7, 19:18-19. The references cited all pertain to priestly sprinklings of the blood of atonement, the anointing oil of consecration, and the ceremonial water used to cleanse the unclean. Is Isaiah 52:13 telling us that the Messiah will act as a priest who applies atonement, anoints to consecrate, sprinkles to make clean? (This vision of the Messiah as both priest and king is also found in Zechariah 6:12-13). But, priests were to come from the tribe of Levi and Kings from the tribe of Judah! What kind of priest is he? David told us Messiah would be a priest of the order of Melchizedek (see Psalm 110 and Hebrews chapters 7-9).

Isaiah 53 must be understood as referring to the coming Davidic King, the Messiah. King Messiah was prophesied to suffer and die to pay for our sins and then rise again. He would serve as a priest to the nations of the world and apply the blood of atonement to cleanse those who believe. There is one alone who this can refer to, Jesus, whom millions refer to as Christ, which is from the Greek word for Messiah. Those who confess him are his children, his promised offspring, the spoils of his victory. According to the testimony of the Jewish Apostles, Jesus died for our sins, rose again, ascended to the right hand of God, and he now serves as our great High Priest who cleanses us of sin and our King. Jesus rules over his people and is in the process of conquering the Gentiles. The first century Jewish disciples were willing to die rather than deny they had seen the risen Messiah. Only if one has presupposed Jesus cannot have been the Messiah can one deny that which is obvious. Israel's greatest son, Jesus, is the one Isaiah foresaw.

(c) 1997 Fred Klett

jewscout · Jan 25, 2006

and yet the article never really speaks to the issues raised by Rashi in regards to the grammer and the hebrew being in the plural

Quiddity · Jan 25, 2006

jewscout said:
and yet the article never really speaks to the issues raised by Rashi in regards to the grammer and the hebrew being in the plural

JS, post a good English translation of Isaiah 53. The same that I posted. The whole thing. I'm already adressing one area with the plural with Deut. If you could be so kind.

jewscout · Jan 25, 2006

Victor said:
JS, post a good English translation of Isaiah 53. The same that I posted. The whole thing. I'm already adressing one area with the plural with Deut. If you could be so kind.

i'll have to wait till i get home, my tanach is there.

jewscout · Jan 25, 2006

Victor said:
JS, post a good English translation of Isaiah 53. The same that I posted. The whole thing. I'm already adressing one area with the plural with Deut. If you could be so kind.

Per your request Victor. This is Isaiah 53 from Artscroll's Stone Edition Tanach:

1.Who would believe what we have heard! For whom has the arm of HaShem been revealed!
2. Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him, but without such visage that we could desire him.
3. He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him.
4. But in truth, it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried - but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by G-d, and afllicted!
5. He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds, we were healed.
6. We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and HaShem inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was persecuted and afflicted, but he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth.
8. Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them that was my people's sin.
9. He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy [submitted] to his executions, for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth.
10. HaShem desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and the desire of HaShem would succeed in his hand.
11. He would see [the purpose] and be satisfied with his soul's distress. With his knowledge My servant will vindicate the Righteous One to multitudes; it is their iniquities that he will carry.
12. Therefore, I will assign him a portion form the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils - in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked, for he bore the sin of the multitudes, and prayed for the wicked.

if you want i will include the commentary that accompanies this text as well.

Quiddity · Jan 25, 2006

jewscout said:
Per your request Victor. This is Isaiah 53 from Artscroll's Stone Edition Tanach:

1.Who would believe what we have heard! For whom has the arm of HaShem been revealed!
2. Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him, but without such visage that we could desire him.
3. He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him.
4. But in truth, it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried - but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by G-d, and afllicted!
5. He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds, we were healed.
6. We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and HaShem inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was persecuted and afflicted, but he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth.
8. Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them that was my people's sin.
9. He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy [submitted] to his executions, for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth.
10. HaShem desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and the desire of HaShem would succeed in his hand.
11. He would see [the purpose] and be satisfied with his soul's distress. With his knowledge My servant will vindicate the Righteous One to multitudes; it is their iniquities that he will carry.
12. Therefore, I will assign him a portion form the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils - in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked, for he bore the sin of the multitudes, and prayed for the wicked.

if you want i will include the commentary that accompanies this text as well.

Thank you very much JS. Just one question for now. Who is the we's and he's it's talking about above.

~Victor

jewscout · Jan 25, 2006

Victor said:
Thank you very much JS. Just one question for now. Who is the we's and he's it's talking about above.

~Victor

well 53 is an ongoing prophecy (at least from a traditional jewish stand point) about the redemption of Israel...

sooo the commentary i have is as follows:
53:1-3 This is a prophecy foretelling what the nations and their kings wil exclaim when they witness Israel's rejuvenation. The nations will contrast their former scornful attitude toward the Jews (vv. 1-3) with their new realization of Israel's grandeur (vv. 4-7).

it doesn't give a source, though it is most likely Rashi since much of the commentary in the Stone edition is from Rashi, even if it doesn't say so.

Quiddity · Jan 26, 2006

jewscout said:
well 53 is an ongoing prophecy (at least from a traditional jewish stand point) about the redemption of Israel...

sooo the commentary i have is as follows:
53:1-3 This is a prophecy foretelling what the nations and their kings wil exclaim when they witness Israel's rejuvenation. The nations will contrast their former scornful attitude toward the Jews (vv. 1-3) with their new realization of Israel's grandeur (vv. 4-7).

it doesn't give a source, though it is most likely Rashi since much of the commentary in the Stone edition is from Rashi, even if it doesn't say so.

So the we's is the Nation of Israel and him's is a King?

sushannah · Jan 28, 2006

Victor said:
So the we's is the Nation of Israel and him's is a King?

The "we's" are the other nations and their kings. The "him's" speaks of the nation of Israel.

jewscout · Jan 30, 2006

sushannah said:
The "we's" are the other nations and their kings. The "him's" speaks of the nation of Israel.

yep that's about right.

Quiddity · Jan 30, 2006

jewscout said:
yep that's about right.

Alright, I'm trying to understand why a Jewish prophet was speaking in we's about a foreign nation? That makes no sense. The "we" implies he's including himself, no?

Messiah or Nation of Israel

Ammon is awesome

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