Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Well as long as we're under the assumption that is was simply suicide, my argument falls through. However, the OP doesn't make that claim.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Strong Delusion
- Thread starter Ken Brown
- Start date
Well as long as we're under the assumption that is was simply suicide, my argument falls through. However, the OP doesn't make that claim.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi KB, None of mankind's laws/requirements for their children carry an eternal death penalty.
And no created being can pay the death penalty for another created being. We all have to pay our own "penalties".
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Gjh, a suicide is without purpose or benefit to others----just the death of self.
However, That of Jesus wasn't a suicide, but more in the order of a "transplant" . HE took one's death sentence(terminal viability) in exchange for HIS righteous life that would NOT die.
That exchange had some requirements. (like a total change of life-styles).
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi sincerely, Yeshua gave examples of how mankind would logically do certain things...not giving a serpent for a fish or a stone for a piece of bread. So when I give the logical example of how mankind would never devise a plan to punish their good children in the place of their wicked children, I would stand by that example as being valid.
As you state, we all have to pay our own penalties, not someone else or even a deity in our stead. The soul that sinneth should die, not The Sinless Soul in their place. Elohim tells us what He desires, He desires that the soul which sins should repent, and not die (Eze 18:21-23). And then we have an encouragement and blessing from Elohim to bring about that repentance (Acts 3:26), so that we truly turn/repent from our sin and prove we are children of Elohim (1 John 3:4-10).
Now, does this mean that we never sin? No, as Paul teaches, we have this flesh and the principle of sin that dwells within us, but our hearts and minds have been converted to where we hate sin and we no longer exist in unison with it. We FIGHT the sin in our lives, and he who overcomes in fighting the good fight, will be granted a crown of righteousness. But the one who shrinks back INTO willful sin after knowing what their sin did and does (Sacrifice Yeshua), they hold Yeshua up to public ridicule and will only have a fearful judgment and fiery indignation as their reward for falling away from repentance (Heb 10:26-27,39, & Heb 6:4-8). It would have been better for them to have never known the WAY of righteousness, as it would be like a dog returning to it's vomit or a swine to mud if they are entangled again and overcome by sin (2 Pet 2:20-22).
This is serious business sincerly, for Elohim so loved the world that He gave and allowed mankind to put Yeshua to death so that mankind would be blessed to turn from their sin. KB
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Suicide is taking your own life. I know that's a bit icky for Christians, and I understand why you would dress it up with happy words, but that doesn't amount to a change of the definition of suicide.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Gjh, The mob demanded that Jesus be Crucified. The soldiers escorted HIM to the specified hill and HE was nailed to that Cross. Where in that do you see Jesus "taking HIS own life"??
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Indeed! It is "serious business".
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
"...do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
Want to call it assisted suicide? Suicide by cop? Call it what you will. Paul had no problem calling it as it is: "Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters."
Last edited:
The difference between martyrdom and suicide is the former is for something, the latter is for nothing.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
OK. How is suicide for something other than death?
Martyrdom may be suicide but suicide isn't martyrdom. Care to try again?
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
You're arguing because not all birds are ravens, ravens aren't birds. The fact is, martyrdom or not, Jesus committed suicide.
So, what issue do you take with that fact?
The meaning of suicide (to me) means loving to be dead more than alive. Suicide is not why he walked bravely to his death. He died because he loved life. His death caused life to be lifted up to a higher level to be made holy. A seed cannot produce unless it dies first. 1 Corinthians 15:36. His death multiplies his love just as one seed makes many more seeds.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Unfortunately, your preferred definition is not accurate.
Wow. I thought the wall was taken down.
Suicide; the taking of ONE'S OWN LIFE
Was Yehoshua all the characters that caused his death? In other words was Yehoshua playing the parts of the Chief Priest, the Sanhedrin, Judas, the crowd, Herod, and the soldiers?
The only suicides I know of that are not actually carried out by the victim are suicide by cop, and assisted suicide. Are you calling it one of those? Which one?
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Suicide by cop seems like the most accurate. Suicide by Roman Legion even more so.
I don't think so. Police shoot a perp so that the perp won't shoot the police. What threat did Yehoshua exhibit to anyone that he should be stopped?
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by savagewind
Wow. I thought the wall was taken down.
Suicide; the taking of ONE'S OWN LIFE
Was Yehoshua all the characters that caused his death? In other words was Yehoshua playing the parts of the Chief Priest, the Sanhedrin, Judas, the crowd, Herod, and the soldiers?
The only suicides I know of that are not actually carried out by the victim are suicide by cop, and assisted suicide. Are you calling it one of those? Which one?
Hi Gjh, while that "seems to be" human logic---Scripturally it isn't true. Jesus was already dead by the time the spear pierced into HIS side.
John 10:17-18, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
There is a factor which is being overlooked. there is a judgment day coming.
Rom.14:9-10, "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
On that judgment Day, the proper (wicked one) guilty of deceiving the "whole world", will be identified, charged, and receive the prescribed death penalty.
Wow. I thought the wall was taken down.
Suicide; the taking of ONE'S OWN LIFE
Was Yehoshua all the characters that caused his death? In other words was Yehoshua playing the parts of the Chief Priest, the Sanhedrin, Judas, the crowd, Herod, and the soldiers?
The only suicides I know of that are not actually carried out by the victim are suicide by cop, and assisted suicide. Are you calling it one of those? Which one?
Hi Gjh, while that "seems to be" human logic---Scripturally it isn't true. Jesus was already dead by the time the spear pierced into HIS side.
John 10:17-18, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
There is a factor which is being overlooked. there is a judgment day coming.
Rom.14:9-10, "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
On that judgment Day, the proper (wicked one) guilty of deceiving the "whole world", will be identified, charged, and receive the prescribed death penalty.
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
The riot in the temple and political unease with the Pharisees. Telling his disciples to arm themselves that night probably didn't help either.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by savagewind
I don't think so. Police shoot a perp so that the perp won't shoot the police. What threat did Yehoshua exhibit to anyone that he should be stopped?
Hi Gjh, Yes, One person running that gang of thieves from the Temple was a justifiable "riot" which the Temple guards should have done, but it was sanctioned by the priest to sell unlawful merchandise and give an illegal exchange for that which the worshipers brought to buy improper sacrifices.
And those "Pharisees" and "scribes" liked the "unlawful actions' rather than abide by the "Thus saith the Lord GOD".
Jesus was aware of those plans to arrest HIM. Mark 14:1, "After two days was [the feast of] the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put [him] to death. "
And Luke 22:52-53. "Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. "
Jesus allowed the one sword and it would have been sufficient to protect HIS Disciples. There was no resisting the arrest. "Jesus went as a lamb to be sheared."/slaughtered.
I don't think so. Police shoot a perp so that the perp won't shoot the police. What threat did Yehoshua exhibit to anyone that he should be stopped?
Hi Gjh, Yes, One person running that gang of thieves from the Temple was a justifiable "riot" which the Temple guards should have done, but it was sanctioned by the priest to sell unlawful merchandise and give an illegal exchange for that which the worshipers brought to buy improper sacrifices.
And those "Pharisees" and "scribes" liked the "unlawful actions' rather than abide by the "Thus saith the Lord GOD".
Jesus was aware of those plans to arrest HIM. Mark 14:1, "After two days was [the feast of] the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put [him] to death. "
And Luke 22:52-53. "Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. "
Jesus allowed the one sword and it would have been sufficient to protect HIS Disciples. There was no resisting the arrest. "Jesus went as a lamb to be sheared."/slaughtered.