How good is good enough to get to Heaven?

InformedIgnorance said:

It is only 'a game of semantics' if you concede that 'evil' and 'sins' are merely terms given to things we find intellectually undesirable and emotionally unpleasant. Because that is what I was talking about then saying it wasn't evil or sinful; for you to say it is merely a difference in semantics is to suggest that your understanding of evil and sins is merely that they are terms given to that which we dislike.

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I think you summed up the idea of "evil" quite nicely here:

"is also something that is destructive to society and was codified into law that people should not do so, laws that we follow because of social contract."

If it makes you feel better to call that concept by another name then suit yourself. We're talking about the same thing however. In this conversation I'm simply asking people to contemplate any consequences for committing such acts beyond just those that come from breaking a "social contract".

So, you don't believe 'sin' or 'evil' is something that god decides (or something of that variety), that it is instead determined by people. Is that correct?

InformedIgnorance said:

So, you don't believe 'sin' or 'evil' is something that god decides (or something of that variety), that it is instead determined by people. Is that correct?

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I believe at its core "sin" is a destructive, selfish act. I believe God has given us the ability to inderstand the concept of "sin" through a conscience. I also believe that the Christian God's definition of sin is not random and arbitrary but quite deliberate.

Is it PEOPLE who decide what sin is (what is destructive)?

This is clearly not mere semantics unless you hold that it is people who decide right and wrong, not according to some sort of divine heuristic they were provided with but that PEOPLE determine right and wrong.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

And you think this standard is just? Why?


Why does it have to be a matter of "deserve" as opposed to, say, "need"?

The Bible says that God, as our Heavenly Father, knows our needs and will provide for them. Do you think that we need salvation?

Would a human father be a good father if he based his decision of whether to provide for his children on whether the children have done things to "justify" getting the things they need?

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You got that from Jesus. The problem is that you didn't read it in the context of verses below. The same guy that told God's children not to worry also gave stern warnings to those who aren't.

Luke 10

8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[b]
16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Matthew 25:31-46

New International Version (NIV)

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The message of Jesus is that people are either in one kingdom (Heaven/God's) or the other (Hell/Satan's) regardless of what one believes and/or wants to believe about the state of their soul. From the Christian perspective there is no third kingdom ruled by "reason" and "intellect". Jesus is also saying in the verses from Luke that there's only one way to be God's child and that's through receiving his message.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

I know that anecdotes aren't data, but just as an illustrative example...

My monogamous, heterosexual marriage lasted 7 years. How long has your open marriage lasted so far?

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In April, we will have been married 10 years. Not sure what we have in store to celebrate, but I'm thinking we'll go out of town for a vacation somewhere. I keep wanting to take a holiday but the business keeps demanding my presence (it's still acting like an infant, lol).

But mark my words, we will celebrate! :yes:

-Peacemaker- said:

That's easy to say until you're on the wrong end of it

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So we are talking about demonizing those that wrong us? Waste your time with such nonsense if you wish. People make choices. Those choices result in reality. There is what I want reality to be like and what I don't want reality to be like. I hold this perspective which means I must afford the same courtesy to all of you. I will try to enable the reality that I want. Everyone else will do the same. Some of us will get what they want. Some won't. Mostly, there will be a dubious balance between all of us getting the reality we more or less expect even if we don't want it necessarily. Labeling any of this dance a 'sin' is just another attempt at putting things how you want them without regard to what's actually happening. It's like pretending you've already won. I like the struggle, myself. I think we're meant for it. If there is a god (which I believe there is) and god has a purpose for me/us (which I believe it does) then I must insist that what you might call 'sin' is nothing of the sort and is not only expected, and desired by god, but absolutely necessary to whatever it is we're for. The 'good' stuff is likely much more important, but without the constant conflict there is no progress as I see it. Luckily, we seem to be learning how to have conflict without really hurting each other so much. Hopefully that trend will continue into the future. But its never going away completely. Thank god.

I caused some controversy once on a Christian Forum by saying that I thought there would be a lot of people in "heaven" that you'd never expect to be there- like atheists, for example. I said this because not only do I believe it, it also infers as much in certain scriptures. People would say "where!" and "Prove it!" I don't feel like digging up the scriptures but I know I've read some that imply that.
On top of that, not one of us could possibly know the mind of God and who God would save. God sees things we don't see in a man's (or woman's)heart.

Sir Doom said:

So we are talking about demonizing those that wrong us? .

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Did I say that? Of course not. I implied that the day you are wronged you will be calling for justice. In fact I guarantee that you will. By doing so you will demonstrate that you comprehend the very real concept of "sin".

-Peacemaker- said:

I'm just curious what everyone believes on the subject and by what rationale they defend their view. I realize this is a diverse board but I think we can all agree that we are all sinners to varying degrees. If Heaven is real then God must have some standard of imperfection that one must meet if they are to reach the pearly gates or else we are all destined to burn. What is that standard?

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I believe that nearly everyone ends up in Heaven, the Grace of God and the Atonement are absolute. I believe that Hell requires a willful action positioning oneself in knowing opposition to God.

In Heaven, the closer one wishes to be to God the closer to Christ-like you must be. I do not believe that upon death, or entry to Heaven, people suddenly change and are willing to be Christ-like. Thus, people distance themselves from God while they are in Heaven because they are unwilling or incapable of living a Christ-like eternity. Just as in this life my choices have limited my interactions with people in specific social classes, I believe that in Heaven we do the same. We will interact with those we choose to, but our choices may limit who we are able to choose to interact with. I am not able to interact with celebrities of the extremely wealthy simply because I choose to. My position limits the interaction with others. Regardless of my freedom to do whatever I like, my choices limit what I am able to do. God allows us to do whatever we choose, but our choices do limit what we are able to. I believe that there is work happening in Heaven, and I believe that such will always be the case; Heaven is a productive sphere. We will have responsibilities and assignments for which we are accountable. Our responsibilities and assignments will be based in what we are willing and able to take on. This will also limit with whom we interact with.

What is the standard for the overarching state of existence that is Heaven? Not willingly and knowingly rebelling against God.

-Peacemaker- said:

Did I say that? Of course not. I implied that the day you are wronged you will be calling for justice. In fact I guarantee that you will. By doing so you will demonstrate that you comprehend the very real concept of "sin".

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I didn't say I don't comprehend sin. I know what it means. Thanks for that, though. I said its ridiculous due to its 100% arbitrary nature. the fact that you are now telling me to base the notion of sin off of my own sense of justice only proves my point further.

I'm not sure what it is that makes you think I've never been wronged, by the way. The difference is that I don't consider it to be the God's, the Universe's or reality's problem. It's just my problem.

Sir Doom said:

I didn't say I don't comprehend sin. I know what it means. Thanks for that, though. I said its ridiculous due to its 100% arbitrary nature. the fact that you are now telling me to base the notion of sin off of my own sense of justice only proves my point further.

I'm not sure what it is that makes you think I've never been wronged, by the way. The difference is that I don't consider it to be the God's, the Universe's or reality's problem. It's just my problem.

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Is it really arbitrary? Or is the inability/unwillingness to acknowledge sin a result of a hardened heart?

-Peacemaker- said:

You got that from Jesus. The problem is that you didn't read it in the context of verses below. The same guy that told God's children not to worry also gave stern warnings to those who aren't.

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I don't think there's one cohesive message of the Bible, so I think it's a bit of a snipe hunt to try and search for a larger context.

But regardless, if we consider the perspective of a parent of a child - even perhaps a child they've disowned, if we want something analogous to what your passages describe - it's still possible to think of things in terms of "need" and not "deserve".

For instance, even if you weren't on speaking terms with your son, but as you were walking down the street one day, you found him on the sidewalk without a pulse, you'd administer CPR, right? Maybe he's been so bad that he doesn't "deserve" any regard from you at all, but I think most reasonable people would think something like "he's still my son; I can't let him die"... wouldn't you agree?

Edit: heck, even set the parent/child angle aside. You'd do at least that much for a stranger, right? I don't know about you, but when I see someone in need, I think "that person needs help; I should give it." I don't generally stop to ask myself whether that person in need "deserves" my help.

Does your God have at least that level of compassion?

-Peacemaker- said:

Is it really arbitrary? Or is the inability/unwillingness to acknowledge sin a result of a hardened heart?

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I am unsure what you mean by 'hardened heart'. Explain this term.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

I don't think there's one cohesive message of the Bible, so I think it's a bit of a snipe hunt to try and search for a larger context.

But regardless, if we consider the perspective of a parent of a child - even perhaps a child they've disowned, if we want something analogous to what your passages describe - it's still possible to think of things in terms of "need" and not "deserve".

For instance, even if you weren't on speaking terms with your son, but as you were walking down the street one day, you found him on the sidewalk without a pulse, you'd administer CPR, right? Maybe he's been so bad that he doesn't "deserve" any regard from you at all, but I think most reasonable people would think something like "he's still my son; I can't let him die"... wouldn't you agree?

Edit: heck, even set the parent/child angle aside. You'd do at least that much for a stranger, right? I don't know about you, but when I see someone in need, I think "that person needs help; I should give it." I don't generally stop to ask myself whether that person in need "deserves" my help.

Does your God have at least that level of compassion?

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Do you realize what the Christian idea of "Heaven" actually is? It's not some "free for all" where people get to do whatever they want, live consequence free, and still be happy all day. On the contrary, it's the place where God reigns and his will is done. In case you haven't noticed, there's alot of people that don't want to live under the reign of such a God and to be his servant. Of course, in the eyes of some people such a God is a "slave master". They complain that he won't approve of them being their own gods. But that raises another question. If God actually made us, is it really creation's place to complain to it's creator about how it was made?

Revelation 22:

1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;4they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.5And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Sir Doom said:

I am unsure what you mean by 'hardened heart'. Explain this term.

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I really thought this was a great explanation

-Peacemaker- said:

God reigns and his will is done.

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This is where I love LDS scripture:

Moses 1:39 (God speaking to Moses)

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

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2 Ne. 2:25

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

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From an LDS perspective God's will is for Man to have joy and eternal life.

I have to admit, I found the description you gave from revelations nothing short of frightening (but even were I to put aside my initial repulsion, it is quite a disheartening view of eternity; eternity without night without the beauty of the stars, the gentle embrace of darkness the feeling of looking forward to the next day, the glorious sunset all of it denied? it paints a very sterile picture even without the branding and eternal servitude); but i do find the assertion that god reigns and his will is done to be most interesting... isnt that supposedly the case anyway even here on earth?

-Peacemaker- said:

I really thought this was a great explanation...
[snip]

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So, sin causes a hard heart.

In other words when you said:

-Peacemaker- said:

...Or is the inability/unwillingness to acknowledge sin a result of a hardened heart?

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What you meant was that I am unable/unwilling to acknowledge sin because I sin too much myself. Have I got that right?

Or are too proud (which I suppose is also a sin).