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Our life on earth, Adam and Eve, Agency and More.

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
You believe animals have no agency and are more or less organic robots?

yes, they are. They are programmed to manufacture certain products, to perform certain functions, to breed at certain times of the year, to migrate at certain times to eat certain foods.... they are doing all this without direct intervention, so yes, they are biological robots.

The only thing I am talking about right now is the importance of oppositon, or the line in the sand, in order to have our agency.
I am not currently saying we have to do bad in order to do good. I know you disagree with that.
The only thing I am currently saying is that we can't do good if we are not alive and we can not be alive if we do not have a mind of our own and the ability to make choices, otherwise we are no more alive than a robot. Do you agree with that?


im not sure im following you...

the animals are alive and they dont have free will. So why couldnt we live without free will and run on instinct the way they do? We could. But God doesnt want us to so he gave us a mind with the ability to reason and make decisions.

im not sure whats hard to understand about that???
 

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
yes, they are. They are programmed to manufacture certain products, to perform certain functions, to breed at certain times of the year, to migrate at certain times to eat certain foods.... they are doing all this without direct intervention, so yes, they are biological robots.




im not sure im following you...

the animals are alive and they dont have free will. So why couldnt we live without free will and run on instinct the way they do? We could. But God doesnt want us to so he gave us a mind with the ability to reason and make decisions.

im not sure whats hard to understand about that???

Why do you believe animals do not have agency?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Why do you believe animals do not have agency?

if by 'agency' you mean 'free will', then no, i dont believe animals have free will.

reasons being that they live by instincts. Instincts are like applications running in the background of your computer...they run and you dont have to do anything to make them run. They are constantly working to perform functions which they have been programmed to perform.

Animals perform tasks in the same fashion...they dont choose to do it, they just do it.
 

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
if by 'agency' you mean 'free will', then no, i dont believe animals have free will.

reasons being that they live by instincts. Instincts are like applications running in the background of your computer...they run and you dont have to do anything to make them run. They are constantly working to perform functions which they have been programmed to perform.

Animals perform tasks in the same fashion...they dont choose to do it, they just do it.

I personally do not believe animals are robots, so I suppose that is one more place where we disagree.
Unfortunately neither of us have any Bible passages to back us up on the matter, unless you are aware of any.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I personally do not believe animals are robots, so I suppose that is one more place where we disagree.
Unfortunately neither of us have any Bible passages to back us up on the matter, unless you are aware of any.

ask yourself why humans are held accountable to God if they murder a fellow human, but animals are not held to account.

Why can animals do naturally the things that we are forbidden to do?

Animals are not required to be married to mate, they are not viewed as unrighteous when they bite or fight...yet humans are. God must view them as different if they are not held morally responsible the way we are.
 

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
The question of animals choices governed by consciousnesses or biological programming has been debated for a long time.

Believe it or not Cambridge has done a big study on the matter and they have come to the scientific conclusion that animals do indeed have consciousness.

here is a video of them announcing their conclusion.
Animal Consciousness Officially Recognized by Leading Panel of Neuroscientists - YouTube

Do you disagree with Cambridge University on this matter?
 

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
ask yourself why humans are held accountable to God if they murder a fellow human, but animals are not held to account.

Why can animals do naturally the things that we are forbidden to do?

Animals are not required to be married to mate, they are not viewed as unrighteous when they bite or fight...yet humans are. God must view them as different if they are not held morally responsible the way we are.

Just because we don't know if God has given animals any commandments does not mean that they do not have any.

Remember Adam and Eve only had 2 commandments in the garden and it wasn't until after they transgressed that they were given more. What makes you think that the animals don't still have those 2 commandments? I believe they are going about multiplying and filling the earth. I don't know if they have a forbidden fruit they are not to partake of, but they might. Just because I don't know about it does not mean that it does not exist.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The question of animals choices governed by consciousnesses or biological programming has been debated for a long time.

Believe it or not Cambridge has done a big study on the matter and they have come to the scientific conclusion that animals do indeed have consciousness.

of course they have consciousness... but they dont have conscience.

two very different things.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I"ve just been searching for some scritpures which show animals have a different sort of mind to us and i found these:
The christian apostle Peter speaks of lawless fleshly individuals as people who are like animals...unreasoning
2Peter 2:12 But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed...
Why liken lawless unreasoning people to animals if animals are not lawless and unreasoning.

And what connection is there between 'law' and 'reasoning'? Is not the connection the 'conscience'...the device we use to determine right from wrong? I think so.

Also, the account in Genesis gives some insight about how the animals are subhuman...they are a lower species, subhuman.
Genesis 2:20 So the man was calling the names of all the domestic animals and of the flying creatures of the heavens and of every wild beast of the field, but for man there was found no helper as a complement of him.
The man was 'by himself' in the garden because he had no one to complement him...no one to associate with, no one to talk to. The animals were not on his level...so God created a female human, one that Adam could find a compliment of himself in.

Also see Psalm 32: 9 Do not make yourselves like a horse or mule without understanding,
Whose spiritedness is to be curbed even by bridle or halter
Before [they] will come near to you.

Animals do not have 'understanding' because our knowledge is based on a higher source. For example,
Job 35:11 He is the One teaching us more than the beasts of the earth, And he makes us wiser than even the flying creatures of the heavens.

This next scripture speaks of a man who does not repent over his works, who does not question his actions as being like a horse who runs into the battle...they do that without questioning or thinking about the consequences because they have no conscience within themselves:
Jeremiah 8:6 I have paid attention, and I kept listening. It was not right the way they kept speaking. There was not a man repenting over his badness, saying, ‘What have I done?’ Each one is going back into the popular course, like a horse that is dashing into the battle.

Then we have a proverb which likens a stupid person to an animal... stupid people fail to apply practical wisdom and knowledge, they act without thinking about the consequences like animals
Proverbs 26:3 A whip is for the horse, a bridle is for the ***, and the rod is for the back of stupid people
 

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
I"ve just been searching for some scritpures which show animals have a different sort of mind to us and i found these:
The christian apostle Peter speaks of lawless fleshly individuals as people who are like animals...unreasoning
2Peter 2:12 But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed...
Why liken lawless unreasoning people to animals if animals are not lawless and unreasoning.

And what connection is there between 'law' and 'reasoning'? Is not the connection the 'conscience'...the device we use to determine right from wrong? I think so.

Also, the account in Genesis gives some insight about how the animals are subhuman...they are a lower species, subhuman.
Genesis 2:20 So the man was calling the names of all the domestic animals and of the flying creatures of the heavens and of every wild beast of the field, but for man there was found no helper as a complement of him.
The man was 'by himself' in the garden because he had no one to complement him...no one to associate with, no one to talk to. The animals were not on his level...so God created a female human, one that Adam could find a compliment of himself in.

Also see Psalm 32: 9 Do not make yourselves like a horse or mule without understanding,
Whose spiritedness is to be curbed even by bridle or halter
Before [they] will come near to you.

Animals do not have 'understanding' because our knowledge is based on a higher source. For example,
Job 35:11 He is the One teaching us more than the beasts of the earth, And he makes us wiser than even the flying creatures of the heavens.

This next scripture speaks of a man who does not repent over his works, who does not question his actions as being like a horse who runs into the battle...they do that without questioning or thinking about the consequences because they have no conscience within themselves:
Jeremiah 8:6 I have paid attention, and I kept listening. It was not right the way they kept speaking. There was not a man repenting over his badness, saying, ‘What have I done?’ Each one is going back into the popular course, like a horse that is dashing into the battle.

Then we have a proverb which likens a stupid person to an animal... stupid people fail to apply practical wisdom and knowledge, they act without thinking about the consequences like animals
Proverbs 26:3 A whip is for the horse, a bridle is for the ***, and the rod is for the back of stupid people

I guess that all depends on the translation that you have.

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


Genesis 2:20
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

I never argued that Animals were at the same level as humans. Animals are not God's children and do not have the same potential as man. This scripture says nothing as to the consciousness of animals.

Psalm 32:9
9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

Understanding is not the same as consciousness.

Job 35:11 He is the One teaching us more than the beasts of the earth, And he makes us wiser than even the flying creatures of the heavens.

I never claimed the animals are smarter than us.

Jeremiah 8:6 I have paid attention, and I kept listening. It was not right the way they kept speaking. There was not a man repenting over his badness, saying, ‘What have I done?’ Each one is going back into the popular course, like a horse that is dashing into the battle.

Just because one is ignorant does not mean that one has no conciousness

Proverbs 26:3 A whip is for the horse, a bridle is for the ***, and the rod is for the back of stupid people

Just because someone is stupid does not mean that they have no conciousness.
 

Horrorble

Well-Known Member
Also other animals are not stupid they LEARN how to survive as well as have instincts to help them survive.
 

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
Merriam Webster Dictionary
con·scious
1
: perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled thought or observation <conscious of having succeeded> <was conscious that someone was watching>
2
archaic : sharing another's knowledge or awareness of an inward state or outward fact
3
: personally felt <conscious guilt>
4
: capable of or marked by thought, will, design, or perception
5
: self-conscious
6
: having mental faculties not dulled by sleep, faintness, or stupor : awake <became conscious after the anesthesia wore off>
7
: done or acting with critical awareness <a conscious effort to do better>
8
a : likely to notice, consider, or appraise <a bargain-conscious shopper>
b : being concerned or interested <a budget-conscious businessman>
c : marked by strong feelings or notions <a race-conscious society>
 

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
con·science
1
a : the sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good
b : a faculty, power, or principle enjoining good acts
c : the part of the superego in psychoanalysis that transmits commands and admonitions to the ego
2
archaic : consciousness
3
: conformity to what one considers to be correct, right, or morally good : conscientiousness
4
: sensitive regard for fairness or justice : scruple
 

Flat Earth Kyle

Well-Known Member
What makes you think animals are not both?
Because they don't have all the same commandments as men?
Like I said, in the beginning God only gave men 2 commandments and you believe Adam and Eve were conscience. What is wrong with the animals only having one commandment that we are aware of and being conscience creatures?
 
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