Why should we die because of anothers sin?

Bangbang · Jan 23, 2006

A) One of the most important concepts in Christianity is original sin or the belief that all mankind has inherited a sinful nature brought about by the acts of Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,..."

1Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, ..."

Yet, no amount of theological reasoning can make an inherently unjust idea seem right. Punishing billions of people for the acts of one is not only inherently unfair and unwarranted but also in opposition to other Biblical verses such as:

Deut. 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers (2Chron.25:54) :every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (2 Kings 14:6)

Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bearthe iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Ezek.33:20 "O ye house of Israel,I will judge you every one after his ways."

Jer. 31:29-30 "In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

Rom. 2:6 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds."

Ezek. 18:4 "... the soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Each of these verses shows that every person should only be punished for those sins which he commits, not those of others. Original sin makes about as much sense as if I were sitting at home one evening and the following occurred. The police came to my door and stated I was under arrest because my father in Europe just shot and killed someone. I responded by asking what that had to do with me and they said, "He's your father isn't he?"

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Scuba Pete · Jan 23, 2006

Original sin is not found in the scriptures and while it is held as true by some sects, not all Christians believe it to be of God.

Quiddity · Jan 23, 2006

I do not believe that everybody was conceived immaculately. The great C.S. Lewis recognized that the human nature is "bent" toward sin. RC theology teaches that we inherited the consequences of sin [not actual sin] from Adam and Eve. In otherwords a "bent nature" which is a lack of sanctifying grace or spiritual life.

St. Paul says,
"By one man's disobedience many [that is, all men] were made sinners":
"sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned..." (Rom 5:12,19)

Further, the Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ..
"Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men." (Rom 5:18)

I would personally recommend reading all of Romans chapter 5 to get a better grasp of context. And for those thinking this is an RC invention I would suggest further reading into Early Christian classics:

ST. IRENAEUS (c. 180 AD)
....having become disobedient, [Eve] was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race....Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith. ...But this man [of whom I have been speaking] is Adam, if truth be told, the first-formed man....WE, however, are all FROM him; and as WE are FROM him, WE have INHERITED his title [of sin]. ...Indeed, THROUGH the first Adam, WE offended God by not observing His command. Through the second Adam, however, we are reconciled, and are made obedient even unto death. For we were debtors to none other except to Him, whose commandment WE transgressed at the beginning. (Against Heresies 3:22:4; 3:23:2; 5:16:3)

TERTULLIAN (c. 200 AD)

Finally, in every instance of vexation, contempt, and abhorrence, you pronounce the name of Satan. He it is whom we call the angel of wickedness, the author of every error, the corrupter of the whole world, through whom MAN was deceived in the very beginning so that he transgressed the command of God. On ACCOUNT of his transgression MAN was given over to death; and the WHOLE HUMAN RACE, which was INFECTED by his SEED, was made the TRANSMITTER of condemnation. (The Testmiony of the Soul 3:2, c. 200 AD)

"Because by a man came death, by a man also comes resurrection" [1 Cor 15:21]. Here, by the word MAN, who consists of a body, as we have often shown already, I understand that it is a fact that Christ had a body. And if we are all made to live in Christ as WE were made to DIE IN ADAM, then, as in the flesh we were made to DIE IN ADAM, so also in the flesh are we made to live in Christ. Otherwise, if the coming to life in Christ were not to take place in that same substance in which WE DIE IN ADAM, the parallel were imperfect. (Against Marcion 5:9:5, c. 210 AD)

ORIGEN (c. 244 AD)

EVERYONE in the world FALLS PROSTRATE under SIN. And it is the Lord who sets up those who are cast down and who sustains all who are falling [Psalm 145:14]. IN ADAM ALL DIE, and THUS the world FALLS PROSTRATE and requires to be SET UP AGAIN, so that in Christ all may be made to live [1 Cor 15:22]. (Homilies on Jeremias 8:1)

EVERY SOUL that is BORN into flesh is SOILED by the filth of wickedness and SIN....And if it should seem necessary to do so, there may be added to the aforementioned considerations [referring to previous Scriptures cited that we all sin] the fact that in the Church, Baptism is given FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given EVEN TO INFANTS. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which REQUIRED a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of Baptism would seem SUPERFLUOUS. (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3)

The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism EVEN TO INFANTS. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the INNATE STAINS OF SIN, which must be WASHED AWAY through water and the Spirit [cf. John 3:5; Acts 2:38]. (Commentaries on Romans 5:9)

Aqualung · Jan 23, 2006

That's like asking, "If somebody shoots me, why should I die?! I'm not the one who sinned!" Some sins just have consequences.

Quiddity · Jan 23, 2006

Aqualung said:
That's like asking, "If somebody shoots me, why should I die?! I'm not the one who sinned!" Some sins just have consequences.

Name one that doesn't?

~Victor

Terrywoodenpic · Jan 23, 2006

I belong with the group of Christians who do not believe in original sin.
It might have been well established by the early church and therefor in the Scriptures,
But I still do not believe that sin is transferrable in any way.
As I do not believe in a factual Adam and Eve, I have no reason to believe in original sin.

Terry______________________
Blessed are the gentle, they shall inherit the land

nutshell · Jan 23, 2006

I don't believe in the original sin you're describing, but I do believe that through Adam two types of death were brought into the world: physical and spiritual.

Christ overcame both of these. First, through his resurrection, all will be resurrected and overcome physcial death. Second, through his atonement, we can overcome spiritual death if we believe in his saving power and repent.

Jayhawker Soule · Jan 23, 2006

Aqualung said:
Some sins just have consequences.

That argument/explanation seems more than a little convenient ...

Exodus 20

And G-d spoke all these words, saying:
I am HaShem thy G-d, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them;

for I HaShem thy G-d am a jealous G-d,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

That's not an observation. That's a threat!

nutshell · Jan 23, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
That argument/explanation seems more than a little convenient ...

Exodus 20

And G-d spoke all these words, saying:

I am HaShem thy G-d, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them;

for I HaShem thy G-d am a jealous G-d,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;

and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

That's not an observation. That's a threat!

During the times of the Old Testament, the world was operating under the Law of Justice. Further, I think he could be saying there are consequences for future generations for what we do today.

If I'm a bad parent and turn away from God, my children may not hear his word and thus a chain reaction begins where my future generations "suffer" because they don't have God in their lives.

Quiddity · Jan 23, 2006

nutshell said:
During the times of the Old Testament, the world was operating under the Law of Justice. Further, I think he could be saying there are consequences for future generations for what we do today.

If I'm a bad parent and turn away from God, my children may not hear his word and thus a chain reaction begins where my future generations "suffer" because they don't have God in their lives.

I'm curious where you got the term "Law of Justice" from?

Aqualung · Jan 23, 2006

Victor said:
Name one that doesn't?

~Victor

Good point. I should have said, "Sins just have consequences."

michel · Jan 23, 2006

NetDoc said:
Original sin is not found in the scriptures and while it is held as true by some sects, not all Christians believe it to be of God.

That is the way I see it, though I am never quite sure how to back that up, 'scripturally'

Jayhawker Soule · Jan 23, 2006

nutshell said:
During the times of the Old Testament, the world was operating under the Law of Justice.

< -- yawn -- >

nutshell said:
Further, I think he could be saying there are consequences for future generations for what we do today.

Is that what you think

I ... am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity ... upon the children unto the third and fourth generation

really means? What a joke!

nutshell · Jan 23, 2006

Jayhawker Soule said:
< -- yawn -- >

Is that what you think
I ... am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity ... upon the children unto the third and fourth generation
really means? What a joke!

I took several seconds to respond to your post and I am speculating. However, it's nice to see that my argument holds water since you failed to find fault with it and, instead, made a personal attack against me.

nutshell · Jan 23, 2006

Victor said:
I'm curious where you got the term "Law of Justice" from?

Good question. Now that I think about it, I'm not even sure where I got it from. I guess I've always viewed God as a perfectly just and merciful being. In the OT we get the justice side of the coin and in the NT we get the mercy.

God demands perfect justice, but through Christ, there can be perfect mercy as well.

Quiddity · Jan 23, 2006

nutshell said:
Good question. Now that I think about it, I'm not even sure where I got it from. I guess I've always viewed God as a perfectly just and merciful being. In the OT we get the justice side of the coin and in the NT we get the mercy.

God demands perfect justice, but through Christ, there can be perfect mercy as well.

Ah ok. I wasn't sure but I figure you were trying to say we are exempt from OT justice. Meaning there is no more justice, but only mercy with everyone stretching the poles as far as they want.

Why should we die because of anothers sin?

Bangbang

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