Christianity - Idolatry

First off let me state this is not to become a slanging match, and I come from a sympathetic place concerning the religion that has been passed to us as that of Jesus/Jehehshuah, as it was the faith within which I was raised. However it is common to hear Muslims accuse The Christians of polytheism as a result of the trinity and/or the Nicean Creed but not so common to hear idolatry debated. As a result of reading another thread I thought I might open the topic. What I would like to discuss is whether or not at least some (maybe all) of the established churches are guilty of idolatry. Even with the reformation and protestations of people like Luther over indulgences, to the more Catholic faiths, the wider Orthodox Church, even Presbyterian and even 'born agains' there is still a certain reverence paid to objects be they relics, statues, windows, crosses, or even just 'fish'. After comment on this I would even like to venture that is worship of the 'word' be that Jahweh(IHVH) or subsequently Jeheshuah (IHShVH) a subtle form of idolatry???? I am not talking about seeking wisdom of the walking word or the holy texts, but as worshiping these as God (Eloah) rather than worshipping the unseen himself. Thoughts????

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Chirstians don't worship statues, pictures, icons, windows, crosses, rosaries, symbols, or relics. Christians do revere some objects, but that's far, far different than imbuing the object with deific power of its own.

These objects are special to us, because they help us recall the God we do worship. They focus our hearts and our minds upon God, not upon themselves.

I love my wife. I carry pictures of her, which I revere, because they serve to remind me of her...but I do not love the pictures.

Personally, I'm a very visually stimulated person. I love a community that includes statuary, icons, candles, banners, crosses, etc. in its worship.

sojourner said:

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Chirstians don't worship statues, pictures, icons, windows, crosses, rosaries, symbols, or relics. Christians do revere some objects, but that's far, far different than imbuing the object with deific power of its own.

These objects are special to us, because they help us recall the God we do worship. They focus our hearts and our minds upon God, not upon themselves.

I love my wife. I carry pictures of her, which I revere, because they serve to remind me of her...but I do not love the pictures.

Personally, I'm a very visually stimulated person. I love a community that includes statuary, icons, candles, banners, crosses, etc. in its worship.

Click to expand...

I agree, here!

I go to a no-frills Church. We don't have a lot of symbols...other than a painting of a Cross behind the pulpit. We have scripture written on the walls.

The symbolic "things" within a church or worship establishment can serve as reminders and help to set a particular mood for worship. I think crucifixes are beautiful but I don't worship them...I worship Christ...the inspiration behind them. My Mother goes to a Lutheran church and the decor in the Church is unbelievably beautiful but the decor isn't worshipped...Christ is.

in a traditional jewish sense...to believe i have to go through someone, whether man or angel, to get to HaShem is idolitry.

jewscout said:

in a traditional jewish sense...to believe i have to go through someone, whether man or angel, to get to HaShem is idolitry.

Click to expand...

And in a traditional Jewish sense...that makes perfect sense.

jewscout said:

in a traditional jewish sense...to believe i have to go through someone, whether man or angel, to get to HaShem is idolitry.

Click to expand...

Although, Jewish faith is highly symbolic. The Star of David, the Menorah, the scroll of Torah, the prayer shawls, the yamulkes,the sharing of bread, the Wailing Wall -- all of these are visible symbols of what it means to believe and to live out of belief. We Christians don't "go through" our symbols, any more than Jews "go through" theirs. I'm amazed at how alike traditional Christianity and (reformed -- that's the extent of my experience) Judaism are.

Hi,

Good point. I'd agree that most religions are guilty of some form of idol worship. as far as the use of a word being idol worship goes, i can't say i agree there.

sojourner said:

Although, Jewish faith is highly symbolic. The Star of David, the Menorah, the scroll of Torah, the prayer shawls, the yamulkes,the sharing of bread, the Wailing Wall -- all of these are visible symbols of what it means to believe and to live out of belief. We Christians don't "go through" our symbols, any more than Jews "go through" theirs. I'm amazed at how alike traditional Christianity and (reformed -- that's the extent of my experience) Judaism are.

Click to expand...

however my Torah does not say that i must go through any of those things to reach HaShem, they are reminders of the covenant and promise of redemption. But i don't really need any of those things to pray to HaShem nor do i go through an intermidiary of any kind.
but Jesus, from what i can tell of christianity, is not a "symbol". For traditional Judaism it is not simply objects which constitute idolitry but the idea that one has any being or creature that they worship aside from G-d.

When Jesus says in the Gospel of John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
for Traditional Judaism, that would fall under the realm of Idolitry.

EDIT:
i just want to note that this is the opinion in Traditional Judaism, at least in my experience. From a halachic standpoint, it seems, this is why a jew can not be a christian.
For a non-jew, however, IMPO if christianity brings you closer to the One G-d through the teachings of Jesus and it guides you in a just and good life then i'm not going to question it from that stand point.
i'm just giving my interpretation.

jewscout said:

however my Torah does not say that i must go through any of those things to reach HaShem, they are reminders of the covenant and promise of redemption. But i don't really need any of those things to pray to HaShem nor do i go through an intermidiary of any kind.
but Jesus, from what i can tell of christianity, is not a "symbol". For traditional Judaism it is not simply objects which constitute idolitry but the idea that one has any being or creature that they worship aside from G-d.

When Jesus says in the Gospel of John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
for Traditional Judaism, that would fall under the realm of Idolitry.

EDIT:
i just want to note that this is the opinion in Traditional Judaism, at least in my experience. From a halachic standpoint, it seems, this is why a jew can not be a christian.
For a non-jew, however, IMPO if christianity brings you closer to the One G-d through the teachings of Jesus and it guides you in a just and good life then i'm not going to question it from that stand point.
i'm just giving my interpretation.

Click to expand...

But Christians assume that Jesus is God. John 1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...The Word became flesh and dwelt among us." We don't view Jesus as a creature of God, but as God's own self, manifested in human form. That's our most basic doctrine of the Trinity -- One God, manifest in three Persons, each one fully God.

Jesus, for the Christian, is not a symbol...Jesus is God.

Actually, the first Christians (including Jesus) were all good, practicing Jews. I think, though that it was just your very argument that precipitated the split between the two groups. In the beginning, all Christians followed the Law. All Christians were circumcised. But the Christians saw the Law as fulfilled in Jesus. Traditionalists didn't.

Your misinterpretation of who Jesus is has led to a misinterpretation of John 14. Jesus is the way to God, because Jesus is God. We don't come to God through Jesus as a separate entity. We come to God through a way of living life that God, himself, (in the person of Jesus) set forth by example.

So, no. From a doctrinal standpoint (as far as Christians are concerned) a belief in Christ does not constitute idolatry.

sojourner said:

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Chirstians don't worship statues, pictures, icons, windows, crosses, rosaries, symbols, or relics. Christians do revere some objects, but that's far, far different than imbuing the object with deific power of its own.

These objects are special to us, because they help us recall the God we do worship. They focus our hearts and our minds upon God, not upon themselves.

I love my wife. I carry pictures of her, which I revere, because they serve to remind me of her...but I do not love the pictures.

Personally, I'm a very visually stimulated person. I love a community that includes statuary, icons, candles, banners, crosses, etc. in its worship.

Click to expand...

I agree (certainly as far as I am concerned). I do not practice any form of Idolatry; We have a crucifix over our bed (it was mine before we became married), but that is just a 'reminder' which I am bound to see twice a day.

sojourner said:

But Christians assume that Jesus is God. John 1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...The Word became flesh and dwelt among us." We don't view Jesus as a creature of God, but as God's own self, manifested in human form. That's our most basic doctrine of the Trinity -- One God, manifest in three Persons, each one fully God.

Jesus, for the Christian, is not a symbol...Jesus is God.

Actually, the first Christians (including Jesus) were all good, practicing Jews. I think, though that it was just your very argument that precipitated the split between the two groups. In the beginning, all Christians followed the Law. All Christians were circumcised. But the Christians saw the Law as fulfilled in Jesus. Traditionalists didn't.

Your misinterpretation of who Jesus is has led to a misinterpretation of John 14. Jesus is the way to God, because Jesus is God. We don't come to God through Jesus as a separate entity. We come to God through a way of living life that God, himself, (in the person of Jesus) set forth by example.

So, no. From a doctrinal standpoint (as far as Christians are concerned) a belief in Christ does not constitute idolatry.

Click to expand...

i suppose that this is, as you have illustrated and i am in agreement with, one of the places where the 2 faiths split.

for Judaism, G-d has and does not take a form, there is none like Him and He can be compared to nothing. So the idea of G-d being flesh and as a man doesn't fit into that view of G-d. If He were flesh i could compare Him to something or someone.

however, Christianity disagrees

jewscout said:

i suppose that this is, as you have illustrated and i am in agreement with, one of the places where the 2 faiths split.

for Judaism, G-d has and does not take a form, there is none like Him and He can be compared to nothing. So the idea of G-d being flesh and as a man doesn't fit into that view of G-d. If He were flesh i could compare Him to something or someone.

however, Christianity disagrees

Click to expand...

Bear in mind, too, that orthodox Christianity does not refute Judaism. I hope you never hear a Christian tell you you're "wrong." Christianity believes that Torah has been fulfilled by Jesus. That's the fundamental difference between the two religions. Personally, I believe that Jews are the children of God. I believe that the rest of us are the adopted children of God, as Paul says.

sojourner said:

Bear in mind, too, that orthodox Christianity does not refute Judaism. I hope you never hear a Christian tell you you're "wrong." Christianity believes that Torah has been fulfilled by Jesus. That's the fundamental difference between the two religions. Personally, I believe that Jews are the children of God. I believe that the rest of us are the adopted children of God, as Paul says.

Click to expand...

i have heard many comments along those lines from Christians, from "your wrong", to telling me the mitzvot no longer matter...
to even being called an anti-christ (some of you may remember that little exchange that was probably one of the funnier examples honestly)

but anyways...back to the topic lol

Oh yeah...idolatry...

I think it could be viewed as idolatry that some churches look to themselves -- the belief system, the organization, etc. -- as bringing salvation, rather than looking to God. The church, itself, becomes an idol to be worshiped and followed.

Hi, guys and gals, I just read through the thread, and I think that it clearly outlines the split between the early christians and the Hebrews. I imagine that this would have been further exacerbated by the syncrentism allowed into the faith by its hellenisation and romanisation, let us not mention the mystic traditions of the Levant and Aegypt. I think although Jeheshuah did not only minister to the poor (think wedding feast!!!) it is very likely that his message may have found a place in a system that was certainly class based (sadducees) and hierarchal (saduccees, pharisees, soldiers, temple staff, clerics, scribes, tradesmen, shepherds etc). Even today the poorer people in society sometimes lack the scholastic skill (or at very least the prescience to realise they do possess it, its not the middle ages anymore!!!) to understand the subtleties of religion. I think this may very well be why Jeheshuah chose the method of parable when speaking to the people. Its is however obvious that Jeheshuah also possessed learning, and I think in my consider opinion that this is where the disagreement/misunderstanding may have occured in the dynamic between scholastic and folk religion, high and low if you like. Added to this the fact that socio-political, religious and economic hegemony was threatened and you have a real reason for the misunderstanding to be perpetuated. I have spent much time looking into the traditions of the day, and this 'misunderstanding' and the dynamic at its cause is plain.

Personally, I think the reverence or use of objects as reminders of one's faith is rather risky. It is a fine line to walk between reverence and idolatry. The majority of pagan religions in history didn't view the icon as the god but as a reminder of the god.

I guess I dont need a reminder of God and therefore cant understand the reverence of objects. I kind of see it as rather weak of faith to need a visual reminder of something we should always have in mind.

Is there any religion that actually worships statues? Idolotry isn't about worshiping statues. It's about making physical representations of things that don't have physical properties.

Elphineas said:

Is there any religion that actually worships statues? Idolotry isn't about worshiping statues. It's about making physical representations of things that don't have physical properties.

Click to expand...

The OT writer was specifically concerned with baal worship -- the worship of idols.

I disagree with your statement. Idolatry is about worshiping statues (or other objects).

Just because one person doesn't "need visual aids," doesn't mean that they are illegal or invalid for others. Others, like myself, derive a great deal of depth from contemplation before an icon. It isn't necessary, but the fusion of theology and visual art helps to create a pathway for many to the heart.

In a society, it is often necessary to have one thing in common to bring the group together and united, such as a national flag, a national anthem, something that you can see or hear. In the early day of the OT God, people accepting that faith is expected to accept one concept of an all-powerful God without referring to an object of worship, as was common in the competing religous beliefs in the contempary era, such as the Egyptian and others. Hence when the OT God has evolved into the NT Christian God, to 'convert' the gentile during that era, most of them were used to need an object that they could see and worship, some how, idolatry was not stressed that much as a deadly sin. You can call that worship, or revere or other name. But our limited human brain, in order to be able to accept the concept of God, where we cannot prove the existence of which by our usual five senses, except through the 'feel' of faith, then occasionally it is natural to move towards some form of idolatry.