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Is it a sin to drink wine or strong drink in moderation?

Jonathan Hoffman

Active Member
I know that Levites are forbidden to drink wine but what about the rest of us? Seventh Day Adventists insist it is wrong for anybody to drink alcoholic wine. They insist Jesus only drank grape juice. What do you think?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I know that Levites are forbidden to drink wine but what about the rest of us? Seventh Day Adventists insist it is wrong for anybody to drink alcoholic wine. They insist Jesus only drank grape juice. What do you think?

Levites are not forbidden to drink wine.

No one in Judaism is completely forbidden to drink wine all the time save only alcoholics or people allergic to alcohol or otherwise physically intolerant of it (since alcohol is poison to them, and one is not permitted to harm oneself for no good reason), and, in the past, people who have taken explicit and direct vows, made in a technically correct fashion, to abstain from drinking wine or to be a nazir (a kind of temporary ascetic abstemiousness, where one abstained from all products of the grape vine and from cutting the hair and from unessential ritual impurity for a set duration of time; but we do not practice nezirut anymore, and ritual vows were only truly binding when invoked with pronunciation of the tetragrammaton, which we no longer know).

So these days, unless one is an alcoholic, or physically unable to safely consume alcohol, no one is ever entirely forbidden from drinking wine or spirits.

One is not supposed to pray, or perform certain other ritual duties while intoxicated; and both the wisdom literature in the Tanach and the wisdom literature of the Rabbis strongly encourage moderation, and shunning frequent tippling and inebriation. But wine is said to be a good thing in moderation, and every Shabbat and festival meal begins by blessing a cup of wine, and wine features in many other rituals as well. One can, of course, use grape juice for such purposes, but unless for health reasons, is not obligated to do so: the use of wine is expected on such occasions. The Rabbis tell us yayin mesameach et lev ha-adam ("wine gladdens the hearts of men,") and ein simchah ela b'yayin ("there can be no celebration without wine,") and other similar things, and there are countless stories in the Talmud of the Rabbis drinking wine together on Shabbat and festivals as a matter of course, with the explicit presumption that all should do likewise.

This includes use by Levites, by Kohanim (priests), and all other Jews as well.
 
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Reverend Richard

New Thought Minister
I know that Levites are forbidden to drink wine but what about the rest of us? Seventh Day Adventists insist it is wrong for anybody to drink alcoholic wine. They insist Jesus only drank grape juice. What do you think?

Having been raised as a Southern Baptist, I can tell you that many conservative Christians and evangelicals consider consumption of wine, beer and other alcoholic (read intoxicating) beverages, is a sin. As a child in the Baptist church, the term "wine" was interpreted as grape juice, but as I got older I realized how ridiculous this seemed.

If I am not mistaken, Jesus' first "miracle" was turning water into wine at a wedding feast (book of John). And the book of Ephesians says something to the effect, "be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess." Are those scriptures contradictory? I don't interpret them that way, but I believe many people might.

If one's beliefs dictate that abstaining from alcohol is the moral thing to do, I have no problem with that. But claiming that the Bible dictates abstinence from alcohol seems a stretch of interpretation.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
“Your stores of supply will be filled with plenty; and with new wine your own press vats will overflow.” Proverbs 3:10

Psalms 104:14 He is making green grass sprout for the beasts,
And vegetation for the service of mankind,
To cause food to go forth from the earth,
15 And wine that makes the heart of mortal man rejoice,

To make the face shine with oil,
And bread that sustains the very heart of mortal man.


Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your food with rejoicing and drink your wine with a good heart, because already the [true] God has found pleasure in your works.

Ecclesiastes 10:19 Bread is for the laughter of the workers, and wine itself makes life rejoice;

Deut 14:26 You must also give the money for whatever your soul may crave in the way of cattle and sheep and goats and wine and intoxicating liquor and anything that your soul may ask of you; and you must eat there before Jehovah your God and rejoice, you and your household.


If God thought wine was a sin, he wouldnt encourage the enjoyment of it.
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Hi Jonathan, Moshe said that his Torah was as gentle rain upon the tender grass, so when we look at the Torah, it is as water, something for life, yet the Messiah changed water into wine. What does that mean? KB
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
My understanding is drunkeness is the sin not the drinking it's self.

The problem is, if your moderation is under control, you might tempt an alcoholic to fall off the wagon. You have to consider who you are around and that your enjoyment does not cause problems for others.
 

Jonathan Hoffman

Active Member
Hi Jonathan, Moshe said that his Torah was as gentle rain upon the tender grass, so when we look at the Torah, it is as water, something for life, yet the Messiah changed water into wine. What does that mean? KB

Im Himmel es gibt's kein Bier In Heaven there is no beer,

That's why we drink it here!

(in moderation, of course, as it also has lots of calories) :seesaw:
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Esther 1:5-8 said:
the king gave a banquet, lasting seven days, in the enclosed garden of the king's palace, for all the people from the least to the greatest, who were in the citadel of Susa. The garden had hangings of white and blue linen, fastened with cords of white linen and purple material to silver rings on marble pillars. There were couches of gold and silver on a mosaic pavement of porphyry, marble, mother-of-pearl and other costly stones. Wine was served in goblets of gold, each one different from the other, and the royal wine was abundant, in keeping with the king's liberality. By the king's command each guest was allowed to drink in his own way, for the king instructed all the wine stewards to serve each man what he wished.
Esther here has a great symbol for the Wedding Feast. At a wedding feast everyone is of the same importance, equal. Only the bride and groom matter. Jesus turns water into wine, because his ministery insists everyone is equal now. That's where communion comes from and its probably why Catholics have the whole transubstantiation thing. Jesus tells Peter (in Acts) "Do not call unclean what I have made clean." The symbolism of turning water to wine is perfect. Moses was given the ability to turn water to blood, which is the same sign. From this comes the teaching "The life is in the blood." We are to understand that human blood is human blood regardless of whose it is. Skin color, rank and all other appearances are nothing.

Once in a while its a good idea to celebrate, and wine is an appropriate tool for that. Jesus taught that in the world his disciples would have trouble.

[QUOTE="Proverbs 31:6-9]
Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more. "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."
[/QUOTE] When you drink alchohol only do if you remember to promise to do the above. Speak up for the poor, for the needy. Stick up for those who cannot fend for themselves, and any wine you drink will be special.
 
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Harrytic

Member
“Your stores of supply will be filled with plenty; and with new wine your own press vats will overflow.” Proverbs 3:10

Psalms 104:14 He is making green grass sprout for the beasts,
And vegetation for the service of mankind,
To cause food to go forth from the earth,
15 And wine that makes the heart of mortal man rejoice,
To make the face shine with oil,
And bread that sustains the very heart of mortal man.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your food with rejoicing and drink your wine with a good heart, because already the [true] God has found pleasure in your works.

Ecclesiastes 10:19 Bread is for the laughter of the workers, and wine itself makes life rejoice;

Deut 14:26 You must also give the money for whatever your soul may crave in the way of cattle and sheep and goats and wine and intoxicating liquor and anything that your soul may ask of you; and you must eat there before Jehovah your God and rejoice, you and your household.


If God thought wine was a sin, he wouldnt encourage the enjoyment of it.

You forgot one where God says it's even ok to over-indulge a little!

Pro 31:6-7
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.


The way I see it, is that alcohol is a blessing from God. We just shouldn't drink to excess.
 

Jonathan Hoffman

Active Member
You forgot one where God says it's even ok to over-indulge a little!

Pro 31:6-7
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.


The way I see it, is that alcohol is a blessing from God. We just shouldn't drink to excess.
I totally agree, but the 7th Day Adventists insist Jesus drank grqpe juice!

Sigh!:shrug:
 

gnostic

The Lost One
jonathan hoffman said:
Seventh Day Adventists insist it is wrong for anybody to drink alcoholic wine. They insist Jesus only drank grape juice. What do you think?

Seventh Day Adventists believe in all sort of iffy stuff and unsubstantiated stuff.

If the gospels say "wine", then it mean "wine". They can only speculate that it is grape juice, and their conjectures are baseless, and I wouldn't take seriously in the 1st place.

Do they seriously think the gospel authors can't distinguish the difference between wine and grape fruit?

Like Reverend Richard had pointed out Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding. I doubt very much that grape juice were served at wedding.

jonathan hoffman said:
I totally agree, but the 7th Day Adventists insist Jesus drank grqpe juice!
It doesn't matter what the Seventh Day Adventists believe? They are wrong in their belief in this.
 

Reverend Richard

New Thought Minister
Seventh Day Adventists believe in all sort of iffy stuff and unsubstantiated stuff.

If the gospels say "wine", then it mean "wine". They can only speculate that it is grape juice, and their conjectures are baseless, and I wouldn't take seriously in the 1st place.

Do they seriously think the gospel authors can't distinguish the difference between wine and grape fruit?

Like Reverend Richard had pointed out Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding. I doubt very much that grape juice were served at wedding.


It doesn't matter what the Seventh Day Adventists believe? They are wrong in their belief in this.

More to the point of wine versus the grape juice, here's what the book of Luke records as one of Jesus' parables:

"And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better."
—Luke 5:36-39, KJV

Given how hot it was in the Middle East, and their lack of refrigeration during this Biblical period, an argument that "wine" should be interpreted as "grape juice" is baseless both as theology as well as interpretation.
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
More to the point of wine versus the grape juice, here's what the book of Luke records as one of Jesus' parables:

"And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better."
—Luke 5:36-39, KJV

Given how hot it was in the Middle East, and their lack of refrigeration during this Biblical period, an argument that "wine" should be interpreted as "grape juice" is baseless both as theology as well as interpretation.

Hi RR, good point. Another would be:

Mt 11:18 - 11:19
(18) For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. (19) The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Lk 7:33 - 7:34
(33) For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. (34) The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

John did not drink wine (he was a Nazarite from birth-Num 6:2-3 & Luk 1:15), yet it appears very evident that Yeshua in fact DID drink wine, at least for Him to state what He said in the above verses. KB
 

gnostic

The Lost One
reverend richard said:
Given how hot it was in the Middle East, and their lack of refrigeration during this Biblical period, an argument that "wine" should be interpreted as "grape juice" is baseless both as theology as well as interpretation.

Agreed.

Also agreed with the parable from Luke that you had quoted, that Jesus was referring to wine and not grape juice, especially when it speak of "old wine" being preferable.
 
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