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Greetings, Hebrews!

JonM

Member
I'm glad you thought so. I was beginning to wonder why the theological discussions I've been involved in for the last few days have become so tense, and that's when the hints of arrogance (and not just rhetorical arrogance but, like, bigtime, universal, heretical arrogance) began to emerge.

Now that you're here, I'd like to know what you think about the Torah. I can guess, based on your approach to religion, which you've made very clear, but I'm sure there's something I don't know about the moral component of your beliefs.
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
Very, very, very interesting post. :)

I hope you don't mind if I respond after Shabbas? Only 2 hours left before Shabbas and I need to do a couple things first.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
JonM said:
..., I'd like to know what you think about the Torah. I can guess, based on your approach to religion, which you've made very clear, but I'm sure there's something I don't know about the moral component of your beliefs.
You want to know my views on the Torah because there's something you don't know about the moral component of my beliefs? Sorry, JonM, but that impressed me as a rather odd statement. :)

I believe that the Torah is a remarkable human document. I wrote elsewhere:
The Tanach, however, is a fascinating tapestry of myth, folklore, propaganda, law, ethics and poetry. It is also much like a core sample of a remarkable Syro-Palestinian culture, with each strata telling its story to all who choose to read with lenses clear of dogma. Finally, it is the codification of the Exodus/Conquest narrative - the brilliant foundation for a new ethos and ethic - which give us, for example, Leviticus 19:32-37.

So, when looking at the current genocide in Darfur, we are cautioned not only to love our neighbor as ourself, but to also acknowledge a central and abiding kinship with the victims, as if we too were oppressed in the land of Egypt. In fact, there are two different possible readings of Leviticus 19:18
  1. love thy neighbor as thyself, and
  2. love thy neighbor - s/he is like you
It's quite a book.​
See also ..... but I still don't know if that tells you something you don't know about the moral component of my beliefs. ;)
 

JonM

Member
Deut 13:1 said:
Very, very, very interesting post. :)

I hope you don't mind if I respond after Shabbas? Only 2 hours left before Shabbas and I need to do a couple things first.
Of course! !שבת שלום

I'm about to be off, myself.
Jayhawker Soule said:
You want to know my views on the Torah because there's something you don't know about the moral component of my beliefs? Sorry, JonM, but that impressed me as a rather odd statement. :)
Well, I guess it's understandable that you see my statement is odd, but the reason I brought it up is because we were discussing divine law, and the Torah as a prescription of morality.

Either way, though, it is fascinating for anthropological reasons.
 

Avi

Member
JonM said:
Here, I'll respond to both of you at once.

My response to your criticisms is complex, but as far as it concerns me personally, I feel that I must leave lots of room for you to be right. Let me put it this way: for the last few days, what I've been defending is a significant portion of American Jewry that legitimately feels this way. I have felt that your responses have been too condemning for a recognized denomination, with its own seminary, youth programs, and nationwide organization. That is why I have defended them so adamantly, often pulling in resources over which I have no mastery to try and do so.

However, as I take your responses increasingly personally, as I am forced to be more creative and insert more of my own beliefs as you push me further, I have begun to observe major flaws in my way of thinking. It's as if I put up subconscious defenses against every religious teaching against egoism that I have ever heard, accepting them intellectually but preventing them from integrating into my worldview. Only this can account for my failure to realize that, for someone who affirmatively believes in God such as myself (which actually sets me apart from a lot of Reconstructionists I know), truth, knowledge, and authority can only come from outside myself. I half-realized this, so I created an elaborate logical ruse which gave the appearance that my morality was derived from the outside, but it placed the final word with my powers of observation. Had I consistently followed my logic that all creation is God's expression, I would have realized that any hierarchy I constructed for that creation would have been false. It is not within my authority to say that the rest of creation is more significant than the Torah.

With that in mind, the conclusion that I come to is that I don't know, but the fear of not knowing is surely a call to find out. I have to study. Binyamin, if you are my age, I'm sure you could tell me that the rabbis insist that Jews of our age study and surround ourselves with more learned people as much as possible. At my secular schools, and since we left the Traditional synagoguge (which I can safely say would not have been the right place for me), I have not had that opportunity. Next semester, though, I am doing just that.

It is a comfort to know that I am still living out God's will, and that it will simply become easier and more apparent as my life goes on. Perhaps Torah is the way for me, perhaps not. It would be foolish to say for certain, but I know that I am compelled to approach it and find out.
Tov me'od! If you ever have questions, don't be afraid to ask the Jewish community here. I would be honored to study alongside you, JonM. I personally am studying to actually convert to Orthodox Judaism, and that is probably why I subscribe to the Orthodox Halakha. Who knows, perhaps baal teshuva is in your future.
 

JonM

Member
Avi said:
Tov me'od! If you ever have questions, don't be afraid to ask the Jewish community here. I would be honored to study alongside you, JonM. I personally am studying to actually convert to Orthodox Judaism, and that is probably why I subscribe to the Orthodox Halakha. Who knows, perhaps baal teshuva is in your future.
Well, this feels better.:D

Where are you in the process? What faith are you coming from?
 

Avi

Member
I haven't actually contacted the Bet Din, yet, so I just study Torah and other Judaism specific books. I will start the process once I am out of my parent's house and living on my own in college.

I come from no particular faith. My father is Christian, but I never really went to church. I suppose you could of called me a deist.
 

Ody

Well-Known Member
Glad to see another jew on the forums although we may disagree wtih certian beliefs (im a chabbad/conservative jew myself) i also agree that reconstructionists should have a forum as well..
 

Deut 13:1

Well-Known Member
JonM said:
Here, I'll respond to both of you at once.
Well, I've put off responding to this long enough. Here I go... )(

JonM said:
My response to your criticisms is complex, but as far as it concerns me personally, I feel that I must leave lots of room for you to be right. Let me put it this way: for the last few days, what I've been defending is a significant portion of American Jewry that legitimately feels this way. I have felt that your responses have been too condemning for a recognized denomination, with its own seminary, youth programs, and nationwide organization. That is why I have defended them so adamantly, often pulling in resources over which I have no mastery to try and do so.

However, as I take your responses increasingly personally, as I am forced to be more creative and insert more of my own beliefs as you push me further, I have begun to observe major flaws in my way of thinking. It's as if I put up subconscious defenses against every religious teaching against egoism that I have ever heard, accepting them intellectually but preventing them from integrating into my worldview. Only this can account for my failure to realize that, for someone who affirmatively believes in God such as myself (which actually sets me apart from a lot of Reconstructionists I know), truth, knowledge, and authority can only come from outside myself.
The overall problem with reformed/reconstructionalist judaism from my perspective you just outlined; I put it in the bold.

WHat you're saying is that it must come from outside of yourself, which I agree w/. However Reformed and reconstructionalist from my perspective don't. It's like if you ask them a question they have nothing but themselves to base the answer off of. Is the Torah divine? Sort of, maybe, possibly, who knows, not really. Did G-d give the Torah to Moses in the desert? Sort of, possibly, probably not. Are the 10 commandments obligatory? Sort of, not really, more like suggestions, kind of like guidelines.

There is an expression in Yiddish that you might be familiar with: "nisht a hin, nisht a her". It means: "neither here nor there". And don't take offense to this, but that's how I feel about the Reform and Reconstructionalist movement in my opinion.

JonM said:
I half-realized this, so I created an elaborate logical ruse which gave the appearance that my morality was derived from the outside, but it placed the final word with my powers of observation. Had I consistently followed my logic that all creation is God's expression, I would have realized that any hierarchy I constructed for that creation would have been false. It is not within my authority to say that the rest of creation is more significant than the Torah.
:clap

JonM said:
With that in mind, the conclusion that I come to is that I don't know, but the fear of not knowing is surely a call to find out. I have to study. Binyamin, if you are my age, I'm sure you could tell me that the rabbis insist that Jews of our age study and surround ourselves with more learned people as much as possible.
I'm a year older.

JonM said:
At my secular schools, and since we left the Traditional synagoguge (which I can safely say would not have been the right place for me), I have not had that opportunity. Next semester, though, I am doing just that.
Where do you plan on studying then?

JonM said:
It is a comfort to know that I am still living out God's will, and that it will simply become easier and more apparent as my life goes on. Perhaps Torah is the way for me, perhaps not. It would be foolish to say for certain, but I know that I am compelled to approach it and find out.
Well, I hope I didn't scare you away from Judaism, I was mostly just trying to get you to realize that in reformed judaism and reconstructionalist the relationship w/ HaShem is on your terms, not His. And that isn't real Judaism from my perspective.

With that, laila tov.
 

JonM

Member
Deut 13:1 said:
WHat you're saying is that it must come from outside of yourself, which I agree w/. However Reformed and reconstructionalist from my perspective don't. It's like if you ask them a question they have nothing but themselves to base the answer off of. Is the Torah divine? Sort of, maybe, possibly, who knows, not really. Did G-d give the Torah to Moses in the desert? Sort of, possibly, probably not. Are the 10 commandments obligatory? Sort of, not really, more like suggestions, kind of like guidelines.

There is an expression in Yiddish that you might be familiar with: "nisht a hin, nisht a her". It means: "neither here nor there". And don't take offense to this, but that's how I feel about the Reform and Reconstructionalist movement in my opinion.
Well, here's a distinction I think you have to make. What you said certainly applies to me, but it isn't fair to apply it to Reconstructionists in general (I can't speak for Reform Jews). I say that because most Reconstructionists I know are openly agnostic, and if they can't be sure of the existence of God, how can they be sure of Jewish law? I think that's a fine place to be. I was there for a long time, but I'm not anymore. I believe fully in God, so therefore I have to bow to authority outside myself. But I would say that I differ from most Reconstructionists I know in that regard.

Deut 13:1 said:
Where do you plan on studying then?
Well, the Judaic Studies department here at Brown is very good. I'm currently planning on majoring in Religious Studies and then going on to get a specifically Jewish education, but most JS classes are cross-registered in RS, so I will be focusing on Judaism.
 

Avi

Member
I'm shooting for UCLA in the fall. There I can really flourish as a Jew, but I must also prepare myself for UC-Santa Barbara or UC-Santa Cruz...

I'm the BEST of students, but I am up there--certainly not Brown quality, though.
 
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