Is religion a man-made insitution?

Aqualung · Jan 20, 2006

Suraj said:
Really, the priesthood was qualified by god? Oh, I get it, the priest showed you the certificate "This is to certify that the fellow clergyman has been approved by god, signed god"

Ah, yes, because that's the only way you could ever know it was God's priesthood, is if he signed a peice of paper.

Suraj said:
What you really mean to say, that it is the priest that pronounces you redeemed, but you believe it is god.

STop telling me "what I really mean to say." It is actually god who pronounces me redeemed, but the priests can speak on behalf of God if he wants to. That's what the preisthood is - God's way of doing stuff that you need hands and stuff to do. Their the people God chooses to be those hands and do that stuff.

Suraj said:
So you only do the ritual to feel better about yourself and entertain your own imagination. You don't really care whether it worked or not.

Where did you get that idea?! :areyoucra

Radar · Jan 20, 2006

Aqualung said:
He could, but I don't think he's a liar. (when Jesus said that even he had to be baptised to fulfill all righteousness, I don't think he was lying. Am I that much better than christ, that I already have fulfilled all righteousness, and don't need baptism?)

Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a god and that jesus the son god ever existed? Or is this just something you believe and have faith in? Face it, it is a human invention and if it isn't no one knows until they are dead and then it's too late for anyone to tell who is right and who is wrong.

Radar · Jan 20, 2006

Aqualung said:
STop telling me "what I really mean to say." It is actually god who pronounces me redeemed, but the priests can speak on behalf of God if he wants to. That's what the preisthood is - God's way of doing stuff that you need hands and stuff to do. Their the people God chooses to be those hands and do that stuff.

So your god is not all powerful... He needs people to speak for him and hands to baptise people, he can't just do stuff on his on.

angellous_evangellous · Jan 20, 2006

Radar said:
Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a god and that jesus the son god ever existed? Or is this just something you believe and have faith in?

We can't prove that there is a God. We can demonstrate with some certainty that Jesus lived. Belief in an utterly unknowable God (that is, unattainable by science and philosophy) is the only way to have faith.

Face it, it is a human invention and if it isn't no one knows until they are dead and then it's too late for anyone to tell who is right and who is wrong.

That's why the Christian teaching of the resurrection of Christ is so useful. Having someone who can back from the dead is very useful in this case. Even if someone came back from the dead today, and we could prove that they were dead and came back to life, we could still not conclude that God exists because God is divine.

Luke
19"There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.[f] The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house-- 28for I have five brothers[g] --so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

Not knowing for sure until death is what makes this so much fun! :jam:

Master Vigil · Jan 20, 2006

I think the most convincing evidence for it to be man-made is the natural progression the religions take through time. It changes AS our society changes. It changes with us. How could this be? Because we change it. And we created it.

cardero · Jan 20, 2006

"ALL(WAYS) BE aware of the fact that ALL religions are HUMAN-MADE institutions. They are organized by humans but not necessarily for the good of humankind."

HELLO IT'S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Religion
Pg: 38

Surya Deva · Jan 20, 2006

STop telling me "what I really mean to say." It is actually god who pronounces me redeemed, but the priests can speak on behalf of God if he wants to. That's what the preisthood is - God's way of doing stuff that you need hands and stuff to do. Their the people God chooses to be those hands and do that stuff.

This is actually quite sad. When men are given the liscense by society, where their word and actions is as good enough as god's ordained word. In the past these same men lead crusades and inquisitions, and it is sad to know that in this day and age, the same kind of blind faith in "god men" is practiced.

You are placating yourself. You go to do this ritual, because you want to be redeemed for your sins, and them come back thinking you are redeemed, without any proof. It would be like taking an exam, and awarding yourself the certificate, before you even get the result.

This is why your religion is, beyond of a reason of doubt, a man made invention. It is based on what god said, but you only get to know what god said from a second-hand or third-hand source, that is a man.

If a cruel mass-murderer gets baptized, will that suddenly absolve him of all wrongs he's done? It's such a conveniance isn't it? You're not the only one who believes this. I know Christians who think it's merely enough to accept Jesus and it's an automatic ticket into heaven.

The fact that Christianity is blind faith, without any proof whatsoever, is the greatest proof it's man-made and given the fact it contains statements that have been debunked in the modern age by science, shows clearly this religion has been formed from the unscientific beliefs of people at the time. If it was god's word, it could not be disproved by mere humans.

cardero · Jan 20, 2006

Master Vigil said:
I think the most convincing evidence for it to be man-made is the natural progression the religions take through time. It changes AS our society changes. It changes with us. How could this be? Because we change it. And we created it.

The most convincing evidence to me is that in all the conversations that I have had with GOD, He has never acknowledged which organization He is associated with.

Aqualung · Jan 20, 2006

Radar said:
Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a god and that jesus the son god ever existed?

Depends who I'm talking to. I doubt I could convice you.

Radar said:
Or is this just something you believe and have faith in?

It's not something I just have faith in, though that's a big part of it.

Radar said:
Face it, it is a human invention and if it isn't no one knows until they are dead and then it's too late for anyone to tell who is right and who is wrong.

Face what? You didn't give me anything to face at all.

Aqualung · Jan 20, 2006

Radar said:
So your god is not all powerful... He needs people to speak for him and hands to baptise people, he can't just do stuff on his on.

Exactly! Finally, somebody gets that god can't won't break his own rules!! :woohoo:

Aqualung · Jan 20, 2006

Suraj said:
... When men are given the liscense by society,....

Who said anything about getting liscenced by society? :areyoucra

Suraj said:
It would be like taking an exam, and awarding yourself the certificate, before you even get the result.

Untrue. Part of it is enduring to the end. I can't just get saved. It's a process, one step of which is baptism.

Suraj said:
If a cruel mass-murderer gets baptized, will that suddenly absolve him of all wrongs he's done?

Do you remember what the first thing I said had to happen was? You had to repent.

Suraj said:
It's such a conveniance isn't it?

It's not a convenience. It's sort of hard to repent and be baptised. It took me a long time to get to that point.

Suraj said:
I know Christians who think it's merely enough to accept Jesus and it's an automatic ticket into heaven.

You must have me confused with somebody else. Salvation is hard work. Part of that work is baptism.

Surya Deva · Jan 20, 2006

Who said anything about getting liscenced by society?

You don't have to say it, for me to deduce it. For somebody to become a priest, they have to go through a social system to get it. Then, and as you've indicated yourself, their word becomes as good as gods.

Untrue. Part of it is enduring to the end. I can't just get saved. It's a process, one step of which is baptism.

Who is talking about getting saved? I am taking of the redemption of sins that a baptism is suppose to do. A dip in the water, in the presence of a preist who performs a prayer, who's really just another man of society and that's it - you're redeemed

Do you remember what the first thing I said had to happen was? You had to repent.

Oh you mean going to the confession box and saying x number of "Hail Mary's" What a wonderful way to reduce prison population, just send them all to the box, then for a holy dip, and all their sins will be absolved.

In reality, the memory of all their actions will just get pushed back into their subconscious and could resurface again anytime or indirectly affect their behaviour.

It's not a convenience. It's sort of hard to repent and be baptised. It took me a long time to get to that point.

It takes different people, different amount of time to "repent" Some will wallow in self-guilt, while some will just say "Oh, I stabbed that old woman, I am really bad, but at least I am sorry"

You must have me confused with somebody else. Salvation is hard work. Part of that work is baptism.

Salvation is hard work? Perhaps, for a devout Christian who is constantly in fear of comming sin, by missing Sunday Church, by harbouring bad thoughts and so on and so forth. For a more moderate Christian simply just accepting Jesus is enough and they've been "saved"

MdmSzdWhtGuy · Jan 20, 2006

Aqualung said:
I think some religions are man made, but not mine. I also think some are man-progressed, in that it started out as god's religion, but then men decided to take control.

A very telling statement indeed.

B.

Quiddity · Jan 20, 2006

Christ was a man. So yes, my religion is man-made. But not man-made alone.

Aqualung · Jan 20, 2006

Suraj said:
You don't have to say it, for me to deduce it. For somebody to become a priest, they have to go through a social system to get it. Then, and as you've indicated yourself, their word becomes as good as gods.

No they don't. :areyoucra You're deducing things you shouldn't be deducing. For somebody to become a priest, you don't have to go through a social system.

Suraj said:
Who is talking about getting saved? I am taking of the redemption of sins that a baptism is suppose to do.

Oh, sorry. My bad.

Suraj said:
A dip in the water, in the presence of a preist who performs a prayer, who's really just another man of society and that's it - you're redeemed

Well, you're saved from your past transgressions, but for that to matter at all, you have to also try to not sin anymor ein the future, and to repent of the sins you do commit.

Suraj said:
Oh you mean going to the confession box and saying x number of "Hail Mary's"

What?! :areyoucra Seriously, where are you coming up with all this weird stuff?! I never said anything about hail marys or confessing your sins to any person on this earth!

Suraj said:
What a wonderful way to reduce prison population, just send them all to the box, then for a holy dip, and all their sins will be absolved.

Seriously, are you reading anything I'm saying?! I said "repent" not confess. They're two totally different things.

Suraj said:
In reality, the memory of all their actions will just get pushed back into their subconscious and could resurface again anytime or indirectly affect their behaviour.

Then obviously they didn't repent, don't you think?

Suraj said:
It takes different people, different amount of time to "repent"

I'm well aware of that fact.

Suraj said:
Some will wallow in self-guilt, while some will just say "Oh, I stabbed that old woman, I am really bad, but at least I am sorry"

IMO, if you're not feeling guilty, you haven't repented.

Suraj said:
For a more moderate Christian simply just accepting Jesus is enough and they've been "saved"

I'm not a moderate christian. Why do you think I am?!

Aqualung · Jan 20, 2006

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
A very telling statement indeed.

B.

Shouldn't they be? Or should I waste my time posting things that don't tell anything at all?

Atheist_Dave · Jan 20, 2006

Man made x

Surya Deva · Jan 21, 2006

Aqualung,

For somebody to become a priest, you don't have to go through a social system.

Yes you do. You either do Christian studies or are appointed by the Church. It is indeed through a social and man-made system. You're not appointed by god, you know.

Well, you're saved from your past transgressions, but for that to matter at all, you have to also try to not sin anymor ein the future, and to repent of the sins you do commit.

You mean you believe your're saved from past transgressions. Somehow, I don't think a few dips in the water, and some hocus pocus, is going to absolve you of all wrongs.

What?! :areyoucra Seriously, where are you coming up with all this weird stuff?! I never said anything about hail marys or confessing your sins to any person on this earth!

LOL, I am glad you agree it is "weird" It is actually true that part of the process of repenting is confessing it to the preist or the box(where there is also a priest)

Seriously, are you reading anything I'm saying?! I said "repent" not confess. They're two totally different things.

Hmm, confessing is part of the process of repenting. After all, to repent for your wrongs, you would first need to acknowledge you did it. I know I am not wrong about the confession box.

Then obviously they didn't repent, don't you think?

Have you heard that song "When they said, repent repent repent; I wonder what they said?" How do your repent? Do you sit in the corner and berate yourself "Forgive me, oh lord, I have sinned" do you whip yourself and how do you know when you've done enough? How do you even know you have actually absolved your sin?

I am going to give you my honest opinion. You are placating yourself, nothing more. Just like when you go to a baptism, to redeem yourself, you haven't redeemed yourself. You've just deluded yourself that you have. I am sure there have been many baptised Christians who've undergone psychotheraphy or hynotheraphy and learned of suppressed episodes from their pre-baptised lives.

When a problem is suppressed, it does not disappear, though it may seem to. It only is pushed back into your subconscious mind and can resurface anytime in your lives. Some problems can be so severe they create a dormant psychosis.

The only way of overcoming a subconscious problem, is by letting it go though either psychotheraphy or hypnotherapy. This is because they are designed to delve into your subconscious mind and highlight those issues. You live through those past experiences again and face them, rather than avoiding them or pretending they're gone.

In fact the method of repenting only causes these problems to become deeply entrenched. By screaming at it, it won't go away. By pretending it does not exist, it won't go away. The problem is after all the effect of a deeper cause. If you do not deal with the cause, it will never be gone.

A mass murderer, may repent all his life, but that does not mean he will be absolved of the causes of his wrongs. For example, it maybe because the mass murder was abused all his father or he had very bad experiences with people. Until, these causes are not addressed, they will continue to affect him. It doesn't matter if he gets baptized, he will continue to be affected by them. They could resurfance anytime in his life or be triggered by something.

So, Baptism doesn't work. Modern psychotheraphy could though

(don worry, I have scathing criticism for modern psychology as well)

Smoke · Jan 21, 2006

Master Vigil said:
What do you think? Is it a man-made institution or is it a god-made institution? Or is it something else?

It seems obvious to me that religion is a human endeavor, and not something handed down by God. Aqualung's posts on this thread demonstrate pretty neatly the futility of trying to convince anyone else that your religion is of divine origin, as well as the subjective and arbitrary nature of any such argument.

Aqualung · Jan 21, 2006

Suraj said:
Yes you do. You either do Christian studies or are appointed by the Church. It is indeed through a social and man-made system. You're not appointed by god, you know.

No, I didn't know that. You are appointed by god to be a member of God's priesthood, not by taking college courses, and not by being appointed by a church.

Suraj said:
You mean you believe your're saved from past transgressions. Somehow, I don't think a few dips in the water, and some hocus pocus, is going to absolve you of all wrongs.

And why not? And, it's not just a few dips in the water, some hocus pocus. It's also repentence of your former transgressions. And it's only one dip in the water.

And yes, I mean I believe it. I'm not going to say it in front of every single sentence, though. That just gets redundant.

Suraj said:
LOL, I am glad you agree it is "weird" It is actually true that part of the process of repenting is confessing it to the preist or the box(where there is also a priest)

No it's not. :areyoucra Maybe if you're catholic you think that, but I'm not, so no, it isn't actually true that part of the process is confessing it to the priest or the box.

Suraj said:
Hmm, confessing is part of the process of repenting. After all, to repent for your wrongs, you would first need to acknowledge you did it. I know I am not wrong about the confession box.

You're right about confessing, but not about the box. You pretty much just have to confess them to yourself and god.

Suraj said:
Have you heard that song "When they said, repent repent repent; I wonder what they said?"

No.

Suraj said:
How do your repent?

How do I repent, or how does someone repent. People repent by first acknowledging their transgressions, recognising that they are sins, then feeling bad about your sins, then confessing your sins, then making a sincere effort to never do that again.

Suraj said:
How do you even know you have actually absolved your sin?

Because scripture states repent and your sins will be forgivin. God doesn't lie.

Suraj said:
You are placating yourself, nothing more.

You believe I am placating myself. :biglaugh:

Suraj said:
Just like when you go to a baptism, to redeem yourself, you haven't redeemed yourself. You've just deluded yourself that you have.

I haven't even done that. The worst that I have done is "deluded myself" into thinking that I have been forgiven of my past transgressions, and that if I repent of my future ones they will be forgiven as well.

[qutoe=Suraj]I am sure there have been many baptised Christians who've undergone psychotheraphy or hynotheraphy and learned of suppressed episodes from their pre-baptised lives.[/quote]Well, I'm not, because you haven't given me any reason (ie, sources) that state that.

Suraj said:
When a problem is suppressed, it does not disappear, though it may seem to. It only is pushed back into your subconscious mind and can resurface anytime in your lives. Some problems can be so severe they create a dormant psychosis.

Spanks for the little psychology lesson.

Suraj said:
In fact the method of repenting only causes these problems to become deeply entrenched.

What problems?!

Suraj said:
A mass murderer, may repent all his life, but that does not mean he will be absolved of the causes of his wrongs. For example, it maybe because the mass murder was abused all his father or he had very bad experiences with people. Until, these causes are not addressed, they will continue to affect him. It doesn't matter if he gets baptized, he will continue to be affected by them. They could resurfance anytime in his life or be triggered by something.

Your past experiences are no excuse for what you're doing now. If a mass murderer insists on blaming his father for his murdering, then he has not truely repented.

Suraj said:
So, Baptism doesn't work. Modern psychotheraphy could though (don worry, I have scathing criticism for modern psychology as well)

Well, if that "scathing criticism" is anything like your criticism of baptism, I have no reason to worry at all.

Is religion a man-made insitution?

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